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Christina

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And Wayne believes everyone is predestined to heaven or hell that even if you are good Christain and never break Gods law if you are not predestined by God you go to hell anyway this is essentually the same as OSAS doctrine to the extreme it is not Biblical You need to gain some discernment just because something sounds good if it goes against other scriptures its not Gods word on it but mans.If God had predestined everyone what point to have free will why even be here it makes a mockery of God Wayne is a nice man but he is wrong.
 

Jordan

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As Kriss says it, there is much more than being sweet and kind as even sweet and kind people can still be deceived by Satan.
 

zadzial

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And Wayne believes everyone is predestined to heaven or hell that even if you are good Christain and never break Gods law if you are not predestined by God you go to hell anyway this is essentually the same as OSAS doctrine to the extreme it is not Biblical You need to gain some discernment just because something sounds good if it goes against other scriptures its not Gods word on it but mans.If God had predestined everyone what point to have free will why even be here it makes a mockery of God Wayne is a nice man but he is wrong.
You cannot be a good Christian without the Holy Spirit and having the Holy Spirit guarantees your salvation. You cannot earn salvation just by keeping the law. It is a gift from God and cannot be earned.
 

Christina

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Well to a point Grace is offered to all salvation comes when you claim that grace by Belief and repentance you then receive the promise of salvation but you must keep the faith to to receive the promise thats what free will is all about anyone can chose to lose that salvation by their choices God never breaks his side of the contract but you can break yours. There is many verse's that confrm you must keep the faith and believe to partake of that promise• "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." Matthew 7:21.• "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved." Matthew 10:22.• "And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 18:3.• "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. Matthew 24:13.• "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." Mark 16:16.• "And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live." Luke 10:25-28.• "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." John 14That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.you dont keep the faith you dont receive the promise simple as that no OSASMat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
 

ncsojourner

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God has predestined some of his Elect only He has only condemned one Satan the rest have been given free will to believe OSAS or predestination of all to heaven or Hell is to make a mockery of Gods gift of free will you can take verse out of Context to show us the promise of our Lord to us but when taken into context with the contradictory statements the context of the message becomes clear your single verse's mean nothing in context of the whole of his Word unless you believe that Gods Word is full of contradictions therefore it can not be perfect. You can not ignore the contradicting verse to make a doctrine it must be taken in whole so that there are no contradictions.
God's elect is found in Isaiah 45:4, "For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me".Notice it says Israel is his elect. It mentions no other people. I didn't write itbut that is what the Bible says. It isn't what I think.Jeremiah 31:37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.Have the heavens been measured?Have the foundations of the earth been searched out beneath?If not, Israel is still a people before God. They are still His elect.This is what the Bible says. I didn't write that either.Romans 8:29 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Romans 11:1-2 I say then, Hath God cast away his people God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, 3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.Ephesians 1:4-5 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasurEphesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:Only Israel was foreknown.Only Israel was predestined I didn't write that either.Romans 1:6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:Isaiah 48:12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.Only Israel is called. I didn't write that either.Romans 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; Only Israel can receive the promises. These scripture are in context. Let the Bible be its own best commentary.Let the word of God explain its self. It does a very good job.Gary
 

Beano

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The Gift of Salvation is just that, It's a Gift and to me thats the Key word. God gives you Salvation once you have met certain conditions i.e confession with the mouth and belief with the heart Rom 10:9,10. Now as with any Gift you can choose to do a number of things with it you can put it on show for the world to see you can hide it away and bring it out on special occassions, you can put it away and forget about it, or if you so wish you can throw the gift away.Now I'm trying to apply abit of logic to this topic; If you cant loose your salvation once you have been saved then surly God has taken away your Freedon of Will and I dont believe he would ever do that. Because if I dont want Gods Salvation is he really gonna force it on me; I think not ! Kevin
 

waynemlj

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Hi kriss,The Bible clearly teaches that people are predestined to salvation or damnation. Your words:"And Wayne believes everyone is predestined to heaven or hell that even if you are good Christain and never break Gods law if you are not predestined by God you go to hell anyway this is essentually the same as OSAS doctrine to the extreme it is not Biblical You need to gain some discernment just because something sounds good if it goes against other scriptures its not Gods word on it but mans.If God had predestined everyone what point to have free will why even be here it makes a mockery of God Wayne is a nice man but he is wrong."The Bible says in John 10:24-27, "So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, 'How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.' Jesus answered them, 'I told you, and you do not believe me. The works I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.'The section I highlighted illustrates that the Jews (Pharisees) confronting Jesus were not predestined to salvation. That's plainly stated here, whereas His sheep are predestined to slavation. Jesus makes a clear separation of the two groups in those words.Here's another word from God: Romans 9:22-24, "What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory -- even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles."This is clear proof from God's Word that some are predestined to wrath (damnation) and others are predestined to mercy (salvation).For the last part of your quote please refer to my Reply to you in the other section "Can a Christian Backslide/Lose Salvation?"If you are going to call somebody right or wrong in a Reply or Post, I think you owe it to that person to back up your opinion with God's Word, directly quoted to that particular topic. It isn't very meaningful to just say, "I think such and such is right or wrong..."waynemlj
 

Jackie D

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ncsojourner said:
Ephesians 1:4-5 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasurEphesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:Only Israel was foreknown.Only Israel was predestined
in bold it appears that you have contradicted the verse by stating that only Israel (assuming you speak of Israel the people) are elect or predestined, for even in our adoption by Jesus Christ, we too (gentile) are predestined and elect. Paul's statements are inclusive of the people Israel and the people who become Israel through adoption, that would be us...verse including the Old Testament includes a people (gentiles) who would be His...this indicates-to me anyhow-predestination or election for us too.Please correct me if I misunderstood you.
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Jerusalem Junkie

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Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
 

His By Grace

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This seems a lot like beating a dead horse! I don't think anyone's position has changed, but a lot of the same words have been exchanged over and over. It starts becoming a little humorous to me after a while. It's like everyone is talking, but to no avail, for no one is listening toward making a change. Anyway, thanks so much Jackie for taking up for those of us who believe in the eternal security of the believer. Sometimes I feel like some of us are treated like step-children here, while others seem to feel like they have the corner market on heavenly things. I'll be the first to tell you that I will admit if I am proved to be wrong-on anything. I just don't see evidence that I am and don't feel in my spirit that I have been convicted so. I'll just keep on keepin' on doing what I know is the right thing, hoping I can make a difference for the Lord. If anyone else out there feels intimidated or less supported, hold your head high!!! God is no respector of persons. He doesn't always call the most equipped, but He always equips the called!!!!
 

Christina

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Hi kriss,The Bible clearly teaches that people are predestined to salvation or damnation. Your words:"And Wayne believes everyone is predestined to heaven or hell that even if you are good Christain and never break Gods law if you are not predestined by God you go to hell anyway this is essentually the same as OSAS doctrine to the extreme it is not Biblical You need to gain some discernment just because something sounds good if it goes against other scriptures its not Gods word on it but mans.If God had predestined everyone what point to have free will why even be here it makes a mockery of God Wayne is a nice man but he is wrong."The Bible says in John 10:24-27, "So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, 'How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.' Jesus answered them, 'I told you, and you do not believe me. The works I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.'The section I highlighted illustrates that the Jews (Pharisees) confronting Jesus were not predestined to salvation. That's plainly stated here, whereas His sheep are predestined to slavation. Jesus makes a clear separation of the two groups in those words.Here's another word from God: Romans 9:22-24, "What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory -- even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles."This is clear proof from God's Word that some are predestined to wrath (damnation) and others are predestined to mercy (salvation).For the last part of your quote please refer to my Reply to you in the other section "Can a Christian Backslide/Lose Salvation?"If you are going to call somebody right or wrong in a Reply or Post, I think you owe it to that person to back up your opinion with God's Word, directly quoted to that particular topic. It isn't very meaningful to just say, "I think such and such is right or wrong..."waynemlj
It teaches no such thing it teaches everyone can be saved should they turn to their father are there Elect yes who are they the ones that overcome to the End are their pre-destined yes are they part of the Elect yes are any condemed to die yes Satan thats it one Satan himself.Are the Elect part of true Israel yes who is that the two sticks in Eze 37 that is Jew and Gentile joined together under Christ at his second coming I sugest you learn who Israel is here I'll even help you http://reluctant-messenger.com/judahs_sceptre_101.htm
 

Elf

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Mar 23, 2008
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66 in our Bible 72 in the catholic bible we dont recognize their Bible
Why not?
 

His By Grace

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Look at the thread that says "Luther 100% correct..." or something similar to that and you'll see a whole discussion about the difference between the 2 Bibles.
 

ncsojourner

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ncsojourner said:in bold it appears that you have contradicted the verse by stating that only Israel (assuming you speak of Israel the people) are elect or predestined, for even in our adoption by Jesus Christ, we too (gentile) are predestined and elect. Paul's statements are inclusive of the people Israel and the people who become Israel through adoption, that would be us...verse including the Old Testament includes a people (gentiles) who would be His...this indicates-to me anyhow-predestination or election for us too.Please correct me if I misunderstood you.
smile.gif

You are not unlike most other Christians in the fact that you have the playersin the Bible just a wee bit mixed up. You have the Jews as being all 12 tribes of Israel and the Gentiles as every body else.....this isn't true. God kept Judah and Israel separated through out the OT. In Eze 37:16-22, you will read of the two sticks, which are the house of Judah(two tribes) and the house of Israel(10 tribes) being reunited. This will take two different, physical, people to accomplish the fulfillment of this prophecy. God's word says that it will be the house of Judah and the house of Israel. He does not say it will be the Jews and the Christians or the Jews and the gentiles. Let the Bible be its own best commentary. Now, I don't know where you are in your Christian walk, but if you want to try and under stand who the Gentiles and Jews are turn to Rom 9:24-26.Read vs 24......Who are the Jews in this passage? Are they all 12 tribes or are they the 2 tribes of the house of Judah? Now that wasn't to hard was it?So, you have half of it figured out but who are the Gentiles/nations.Read vs 25 and do as it says...."As he saith also in Hosea...". What does he say in Hosea? After you read the first chapter of Hosea read Rom 9:25 andHosea 1:10.....then read vs 26 and vs 10....then read vs 27 and vs 10.....What did you come up with?....a little hint---If you can't find Gentiles mentioned in Hosea 1:1-11 you are going to have to change your beliefs.And you might want to read Micah 5:8??Hope this helps you.....Gary
 

waynemlj

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Hi kriss,I know that you have a lot of Bible knowledge, for I've read many of your Posts and Replies. I also know that you love Jesus as your Savior, and I rejoice to know that! That's what really counts, isn't it?Having said that, I would like to add that God commands us to get knowledge, get understanding: Psalm 119:34, Proverbs 3:5, and you know that I could list a dozen more. You know them all, too.The reason why that is so important is that the more understanding we get about who God really is the better we can love Him, adore Him, and give Him the glory He deserves.I do ask you to follow that command of God, and, just one more time, read the Scripture I gave you in my previous Reply to you (Romans 9:22-24). Study it, meditate upon it, pray over it . . . just that one Scripture. That's all!Then, would you do me a favor and answer one question for me (your brother in Christ) when you get a chance?Since we know that Jesus made a covenant with the Father to come to earth as a man, to do only the Father's Will which was to save those the Father gave Him, do you honestly believe it gives glory to our Savior for Him to die for those He knew beforehand were not the Father's elect and were predestined to damnation?If you will do that with a prayerful heart, I will accept whatever answer you give me.waynemlj
 

Jackie D

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(ncsojourner;42887)
You are not unlike most other Christians in the fact that you have the playersin the Bible just a wee bit mixed up. You have the Jews as being all 12 tribes of Israel and the Gentiles as every body else.....this isn't true. God kept Judah and Israel separated through out the OT. In Eze 37:16-22, you will read of the two sticks, which are the house of Judah(two tribes) and the house of Israel(10 tribes) being reunited. This will take two different, physical, people to accomplish the fulfillment of this prophecy. God's word says that it will be the house of Judah and the house of Israel. He does not say it will be the Jews and the Christians or the Jews and the gentiles. Let the Bible be its own best commentary. Now, I don't know where you are in your Christian walk, but if you want to try and under stand who the Gentiles and Jews are turn to Rom 9:24-26.Read vs 24......Who are the Jews in this passage? Are they all 12 tribes or are they the 2 tribes of the house of Judah? Now that wasn't to hard was it?So, you have half of it figured out but who are the Gentiles/nations.

Now that wasn't to hard was it?
that was a tad bit condescending for my taste Gary...
smile.gif

Read vs 25 and do as it says...."As he saith also in Hosea...". What does he say in Hosea? After you read the first chapter of Hosea read Rom 9:25 and Hosea 1:10.....then read vs 26 and vs 10....then read vs 27 and vs 10.....What did you come up with?....a little hint---If you can't find Gentiles mentioned in Hosea 1:1-11 you are going to have to change your beliefs.And you might want to read Micah 5:8??
I'll do as you have asked...and get back to you
Hope this helps you.....Gary
well so far I don't see how this is going to change the end results of what God has in store for me, however I am open to learning and understanding...I will get back to you
 

Elf

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Look at the thread that says "Luther 100% correct..." or something similar to that and you'll see a whole discussion about the difference between the 2 Bibles.
Thanks
 

Elf

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Look at the thread that says "Luther 100% correct..." or something similar to that and you'll see a whole discussion about the difference between the 2 Bibles.
(waynemlj;42891)
Hi kriss,I know that you have a lot of Bible knowledge, for I've read many of your Posts and Replies. I also know that you love Jesus as your Savior, and I rejoice to know that! That's what really counts, isn't it?Having said that, I would like to add that God commands us to get knowledge, get understanding: Psalm 119:34, Proverbs 3:5, and you know that I could list a dozen more. You know them all, too.The reason why that is so important is that the more understanding we get about who God really is the better we can love Him, adore Him, and give Him the glory He deserves.I do ask you to follow that command of God, and, just one more time, read the Scripture I gave you in my previous Reply to you (Romans 9:22-24). Study it, meditate upon it, pray over it . . . just that one Scripture. That's all!Then, would you do me a favor and answer one question for me (your brother in Christ) when you get a chance?Since we know that Jesus made a covenant with the Father to come to earth as a man, to do only the Father's Will which was to save those the Father gave Him, do you honestly believe it gives glory to our Savior for Him to die for those He knew beforehand were not the Father's elect and were predestined to damnation?If you will do that with a prayerful heart, I will accept whatever answer you give me.waynemlj
Romans 9:22-24What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?I know this wasn't addressed to me but I would like to try and answer it.Sounds like God was patient with many evil people "People fitted (predestined) to destruction (hell). Patient because He also has vessels of mercy, which He had prepared (something done in the past) for glory (heaven), these will recieve the riches of His glory.
Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Even us? Paul obviously is writing (speaking) to Christians, it's obvious by using the word "us".
whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
He must be writing to a mostly "non-Jewish" people, Also in a sense to Jews also, To the gentiles "they are now included", to the Jews, "salvation is no longer just for them" (explaining a point), The point: God does the choosing!, of not only the Jews but, also the gentiles. So....salvation is no longer just for the Jews, but the whole world, from among every tribe, tongue and nation, and of which, God chooses the final destination.It sound to me in this passage, God is in control, it is His world, His creation and He can do what He so chooses, whether we like it or not. And if one is a "vessel of mercy" be thankful. And remember it was not by your own choice and free will, but, by God choice to have mercy on you.Pretty powerful stuff indeed! I don't see any way of denying it. Is there any more passages supporting this, or any that deny this?
 

ncsojourner

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that was a tad bit condescending for my taste Gary...
smile.gif
I'll do as you have asked...and get back to youwell so far I don't see how this is going to change the end results of what God has in store for me, however I am open to learning and understanding...I will get back to you
Sorry. There was absolutely no superciliousness intended. As I said, I didn'tknow where you were in your Christian walk. It is hard to tell whether one is in need of milk or strong meat. Hebrews 5:12 In 1 Timothy 2:4 it says, "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.' In this passage the phrase. "....come unto the knowledge of the truth"., signifies advanced or full knowledge. Now it isn't quite clear in this passage if knowledge of the truth is the means of salvation or the ideal goal of the saving work. The point is, any truth you harvest from God's word should alter what God has in store for you.Gary
 

waynemlj

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Hi kriss,I like the thorough analysis you did on that Scripture! Yes, you're right. The Word of God is very "powerful stuff' as you say.Well, here's one passage about the subject of Christ's dying on the cross that will shed a bit more light on our discussion.Mark 10:45, "For even the Son of Man came not to be served but so serve, and to give his life a ransom for many."We see here that Jesus clearly states that He ransomed those whom He died for. That means He paid their sin debt in full so that they could go free. The Father's wrath of justice was fully satisfied for them. Jesus was infinitely successful in the offering of Himself in their place. Therefore, the logical conclusion in my understanding is that Jesus died only for His Church, His sheep, that the Father gave to Him.Those who were not His He didn't die for, then. They are the elect to damnation by God's Sovereign choice which is beyond our knowledge for sure.We know from our knowledge of the Bible that there could not be any defect in Christ's sacrifice and death.We also know that there could not be any defect in the Justice of the Father in accepting what His Beloved Son went through to satisfy the Father's justice.Romans 5:10-11, "For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation."That reconciliation could not possibly apply to the reprobate who are predestined by God to eternal destruction, could it?This is long enough for now. I'm glad that you were so willing to think through that Scripture and to discuss it further.I hope these Scriptures are something like you had in mind for further examination.waynemlj
 
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