The thief on the cross !?

Harvest 1874 · May 30, 2018

Enoch111 said:
But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn [the Church], which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect [the OT saints], And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. (Heb 12:22-24)

Paul now presents us with the occupants of the New Jerusalem by divine inspiration.

1. An innumerable company of angels
2. The Church (the NT saints)
3. God the Judge of all
4. The spirits of just [justified] men made perfect (the OT saints)
5. Jesus the Mediator of the New Covenant
6. The blood of Christ in the heavenly Sanctuary

Where you make your mistake here my friend is in the assumption that this was a done deal, the Apostle is not speaking of something which is presently here, but is pointing down to the end, or consummation, of this Age, to the finished picture.

“The context indicates that at the end of this Age everything that can be shaken will be shaken--all will be shaken out except that which is unshakeable. And the unshakeable thing is the Kingdom, which will then be ushered in. The Apostle likens the time of its inauguration to the inauguration of the Law Covenant at Mt. Sinai, when all the people heard the thundering’s, and the noise of the trumpets, and saw the lightning’s and the mountain smoking; and when Moses "drew near unto the thick darkness where God was"; and Moses went up into the mountain. All of this was typical--the sealing of the Law Covenant at the hands of the typical mediator, Moses.--Exod 20:18-22.

The antitype is what we are approaching--what will be reached by the Church at the end of this Age. There will then be commotion, strife, in the world--thundering’s, lightning’s. And as in the type, so in the antitype, the people will be discouraged, and in great fear and trouble. By the end of the time of trouble, the New Covenant will be inaugurated. The Mediator will be Jesus the Messiah, as the glorified Head, and the Church His Body.

The Apostle says that we are approaching the General Assembly of the Church of the First-borns. In this will be included Christ, the Head, and all the faithful of this Age, of the past and of the present. It will include both the Little Flock and the Great Company; for together they constitute the Church of the First-borns, whose names are written in Heaven.

After telling about the assembling of the Church of the First-borns, the apostle tells of another class--"the spirits of just men made perfect." There is a reason why these could not be of the spiritual class, and would be the Ancient Worthies--and that is that neither the Church nor the Great Company will be "men (humans) made perfect." The very condition on which the prospective members of the Church become of the spirit class is that they give up the human nature.

The figure of a mountain is one commonly used in the Scriptures for a kingdom. Mount Zion represents the Kingdom of God. This Mount Zion Kingdom is to include the whole earth. This Kingdom is about to be established. Its establishment is what the Apostle is discussing.

A kingdom is in figure also called a City; but strictly speaking, a mountain represents the nation, and a city represents the government of that nation. This figure of speech is very common today. If we read that Berlin does thus and so, we know that the German Government is referred to; similarly, Washington would represent the Government of the United States, and London, the British Government.

Our text has reference to the holy Kingdom of God. And then, not to lose its identity, but to carry the thought that the City represents the whole Kingdom, the Apostle speaks of the City of God as the Heavenly Jerusalem. Thus he carries our minds to the thought that as the literal Jerusalem was the capital of the typical Kingdom of God, so there will be a New Jerusalem--a higher Government--which is to be God's Kingdom to rule over the whole earth. Thus these various pictures are used to show us the antitype of the kingdom of earthly Zion, of Jerusalem. Then follow the other statements, and the one that appertains to the righteous in spirit made perfect. These were already righteous in spirit, and now they will be made perfect, by having this better Resurrection (Heb 11:35), which the Lord has promised.

In connection with this we have the statement, "an innumerable company of angels." These we think will be the spiritual angels of God, who have had to do with so much service for God. We think they are the same angels of whom our Lord spoke when He said that He would confess us before His Father and before the Holy angels--those who have been ministers to the saints all the way down through this Age. It is very fitting that they should meet us, and that they should see our introduction to the Father.” R5294

Thus we have a picture of the whole kingdom structure, not as it is, but as it shall be.

Harvest 1874 · May 30, 2018

Enoch111 said:
Paul wrote the epistle to the Hebrews in c 64 AD. By then many Christians (including some apostles) had been martyred or died. He had already stated in Hebrews 11 that the OT saints should not be made perfect until the NT saints came into existence ("without us") following the crucifixion of Christ.

The perfection of the OT saints does not take place until AFTER the Church as a whole is complete, as one body and has received its reward first, as they are the bestowals of all the subsequent blessings given to the world including those which the OT saints will receive.

It is not simply when the Church came into existence, but rather when it is completed that the gifts are conferred.

Are we to believe that the First Resurrection (the resurrection of the saints) took place back in 64 A.D., at our Lord’s first advent?

The scriptures support no such thought, but rather to the contrary imply that this will not take place until following the second advent of our Lord.

“The teaching of Scripture -- is clear, that the purpose of his return is that his Kingdom might be established in the earth, and all the promises for the blessing of mankind and their reconciliation with God, spoken of by all the holy prophets, might be fulfilled. Before this work of blessing can proceed, however, ALL those who are to be "heirs of the Kingdom," to reign with Christ as his joint heirs, must have been tried and tested and exalted to the spirit nature like unto their Lord. Our Lord himself indicated that this gathering to himself would precede the blessing of mankind (this includes the OT saints), and was to be the first work of his Second Advent. How cheering were his words to the troubled and perplexed disciples: "If I go I will come again, and receive you unto myself that where I am, there ye may be also." -- John 14:2, 3.

“For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep (IN Christ, the Church). For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead IN Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.” (1 Thess 4:15-17)

It will be noted here that no mention is made of the saints being taken to heaven (not yet), but rather they are gathered with their Lord in the air (In the realm of spiritual control of the earth--in kingdom power and great glory) unseen by mankind, this joining with their Lord is the marriage. "The marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready." (Rev 19:7) However not until the Church is complete (i.e. the “we who are alive and remain” are joined with them) will the Lord present his “bride” before the Father in heaven, then will come the marriage supper (Rev 19:9).

Harvest 1874 · May 30, 2018

Enoch111 said:
When did the OT saints go to Heaven?
Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) (Eph 4:8-10)

The OT saints were held "captive" in Sheol/Hades (which is in the lower parts of the earth) until the resurrection -- "when He ascended up on High". At that time the *gates* of Hades were metaphorically torn down by Christ and "He led captivity captive" by removing the saints from Sheol/Hades. Otherwise they could not have been "made perfect".

“We are not to get the erroneous idea as you suggest here that the Lord at his Ascension led up to heaven a multitude of captives who previously had been in death.

The captives are still dead; they are still in the prison house. The time has not yet come for the Great Redeemer to fulfill toward the race the promised work of calling them from the tomb. Not only do the Scriptures teach that the resurrection is to be accomplished at the second coming of Christ and that meantime our friends in general “sleep in Jesus,” waiting for the time when he shall call the prisoners forth from the tomb in the Millennial morning, but if corroborative testimony on this point is desired by any, it is found in our Lord’s own words, “No man hath ascended up to heaven save he which came down from heaven.” (John 3:13)

But still more, if possible, to the point is the testimony of the apostle Peter respecting the Prophet David, whom the Apostle Paul mentions as one of the ancient worthies (OT saints) who had God’s approval. Peter says, “David is not ascended to the heavens,” and he uses these words after our Lord had ascended up on high and after he had received the power of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.

If as you suggest when he ascended up on high he removed the saints from Sheol/Hades he must have forgotten one.

The entire testimony of the Scriptures agrees that the resurrection of the dead the resurrection of mankind from the power of sin and death to the original perfection lost in Eden does not belong to the present time, but to a future age following our Lord’s second advent.

Mark the apostle’s words explanatory of these, uttered after our Lord had ascended on high. He says: “Times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord, and he shall send Jesus Christ, who before was preached unto you, whom the heavens must receive (retain) until the times of restitution of all things which God hath spoken by the mouth of all the holy prophets since the world began.” Since, then, we see that Jesus did not take with him a multitude of captives of sin and death when he ascended on high, when we see that the time for their deliverance is still future, when we see that before their deliverance the church must be gathered and taught and chiseled and polished and refined and made ready for the first resurrection to be the bride, the lamb’s wife and associate in his Millennial kingdom and in its work of blessing the world when we see these clear teachings of the Scripture, we inquire what then is meant by the statement that “he led captivity captive,” or “led a multitude of captives”?

We Answer--that the meaning is that the value of our Lord’s death was the ransom price for Adam and all of his race, and hence, although none of these were then led forth from the tomb, nevertheless, he who redeemed them might properly be spoken of as the great Victor who had conquered the power of death and who had delivered the captives, since power to accomplish this delivery was to be secured through the merit of his sacrifice and the great work itself fully provided for, merely awaiting the convenience of the great Deliverer and our Lord’s death and resurrection and Ascension meant the deliverance of the entire groaning creation from the bondage of sin and death in God’s due time—"every man in his own order, Christ the first fruits, then they that are Christ’s at his coming" his parousia, his second presence, during the Millennium.

Thus we see that the deliverance of the captives, the resurrection of the dead, is in the Lord’s plan divided into classes every man in his own order or rank; one classification, the first classification, sometimes called the first resurrection, includes merely the church class, the elect, for it is written, “Blessed and holy are all they that have part in the first resurrection.” Another classification is mentioned by the apostle in Heb. 11:39-40, where, having described the over-comers of the past, he says that “they without us shall not be made perfect, God having provided some better thing for us.” In other words, the church of this Gospel age, the bride class, ranks first in the divine order of deliverance from the power of sin and death, and through the glorified Christ; the Ancient Worthies will subsequently be delivered from death to perfection of life on the earthly plane, and then every man in his own order, the residue of the world sleeping in death, in the prison house, will be delivered.” 3H374

Harvest 1874 · May 30, 2018

Enoch111 said:
So you say. But the Bible says otherwise. They are in the New Jerusalem right now.

No, not the Bible says, but you say my friend, there is a big difference.

Stranger · May 30, 2018

Barney

I already know what I said. You're supposed to respond to what I said. Not repeat what I said.

Stranger

Stranger · May 30, 2018

VictoryinJesus said:
It doesn’t have to be the Son. I am wrong. Barney Bright gave a good interpretation that makes sense. I’ve always saw the great gulf as sin(a breach) Exodus 32:30 [30] And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses said unto the people, Ye have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the Lord ; peradventure I shall make an atonement for your sin.

I never considered the gulf as Judgement. Since the Son came as a servant. I saw Him in Lazarus place(the lowly) placed without the gate. Galatians 4:9 [9] But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Still say there is a connection in the parable: the rich man asking for Lazarus to be sent to his brethren, and then Jesus raises Lazarus.

John 12:9-11
[9] Much people of the Jews therefore knew that he was there: and they came not for Jesus' sake only, but that they might see Lazarus also, whom he had raised from the dead. [10] But the chief priests consulted that they might put Lazarus also to death; [11] Because that by reason of him many of the Jews went away, and believed on Jesus.

I don't believe the Lazarus in the story Jesus was telling and the Lazarus whom He raised from the dead are the same person.

Stranger

VictoryinJesus · May 31, 2018

Stranger said:
I don't believe the Lazarus in the story Jesus was telling and the Lazarus whom He raised from the dead are the same person.

Stranger

Maybe not. It is whether or not a person believes there are coincidences with God. We pick those moments out of life, when it is obvious things just don’t line up that perfectly on there on. Here we have two Lazarus’s: one Lazarus is plead to be sent back to tell the rich man’s brethren they should hear and avoid torment. The reply the rich man gets: they won’t believe even if one is raised from the dead. The second Lazarus (the real one not the parable one) is raised from the dead by Jesus himself for the glory of God to be seen. That Lazarus (whom Jesus raised from the dead) enters a city, and the chief priests consult to put Lazarus to death. Because many Jews went away and believed on Jesus. You choose not to see things do not line up that perfectly without God. It is not a coincidence. It is one of those God moments...like in life when we say “there you are, God. I see it, you did that. It is not coincidence.”

Stranger · May 31, 2018

VictoryinJesus said:
Maybe not. It is whether or not a person believes there are coincidences with God. We pick those moments out of life, when it is obvious things just don’t line up that perfectly on there on. Here we have two Lazarus’s: one Lazarus is plead to be sent back to tell the rich man’s brethren they should hear and avoid torment. The reply the rich man gets: they won’t believe even if one is raised from the dead. The second Lazarus (the real one not the parable one) is raised from the dead by Jesus himself for the glory of God to be seen. That Lazarus (whom Jesus raised from the dead) enters a city, and the chief priests consult to put Lazarus to death. Because many Jews went away and believed on Jesus. You choose not to see things do not line up that perfectly without God. It is not a coincidence. It is one of those God moments...like in life when we say “there you are, God. I see it, you did that. It is not coincidence.”

I also do not believe there are any coincidence's with God. Of course not. And the truths that you glean from both stories, (as I believe both are true events), concerning a 'Lazarus' are true. So, it is not necessary that they be the same Lazarus in order to obtain these truths. The living conditions of the Lazarus who lived with Martha and Mary are different than that of Lazarus a beggar whose sores the dogs licked. So I do not see them as the same.

Stranger

amadeus · May 31, 2018

Truth7t7 said:
It makes all the difference in the world on your background of belief.

And do you suppose that you are the final judge on God's behalf? The background of all of us is sin. Even the best of us in the Lord are still growing. Who has all of the answers always correctly but God alone?

Why do you hide the truth?

"Pilate saith unto him, What is truth? And when he had said this, he went out again unto the Jews, and saith unto them, I find in him no fault at all." John 18:38

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6

Questions?

1. Are you 7th Day Adventist?
2. Are you Jehovah's Witness?
3. "DO YOU BELIEVE IN HELL"?

And if a person says "yes" or "no" to any of these questions, have you got him all ready for the final judgment?

"For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again." Matt 7:2

BARNEY BRIGHT · May 31, 2018

amadeus said:
What is the importance of these questions:

1. Are a 7th day Adventist?
2. Are you a Jehovah's witnesses?
3. Do you believe in Hell?

Harvest 1874 · May 31, 2018

Stranger said:
The punctuation is part of translation also. I believe the translators in translating placed the punctuations in the appropriate places. Whether the originals had punctuation marks neither you or I know. But what the originals were saying is reproduced in the translation of the copies that we have.

Once you feel free to begin moving commas and adding question marks at your discretion, you are on dangerous ground. You then begin changing the Scriptures.

Stranger

Punctuation is a modern invention, dating from the year 1515 A.D. It is important that we remember that at the time when the Holy Scriptures were compiled there was no such thing as proper grammar, that is as we have it today, the used of sentencing structure, paragraph divisions, punctuation's, such as comas, periods and etc. were totally unknown.

There were neither divisions of Chapters or verses nor even spacing between words.

If you should visit a good Museum containing some of the most ancient manuscripts you will see that all the words and sentences run together; there is no separation between them, and there is not a comma in the whole manuscript. This means, then, that the comma and other marks of punctuation which appear in our English versions are not inspired, but were merely inserted by the translators to bring out what they thought was the meaning of the Scriptures.

The translators of our English Bible, believing, as nearly the whole religious world does, that the moment of death is the moment of translation into heavenly bliss, inserted the comma in this particular passage to make it read in harmony with their theological dogmas.

Grammatically the comma goes equally well before or after the word "today." Rotherham, the New World translation, and Concordant place it after. It is preferred to go after "today," because until the third day, according to Acts 2:3 1, Christ went to "hell"-- which is not normally considered Paradise.

The Scriptures are inspired by God, but the translators are not; they can make mistakes.

Truth7t7 · May 31, 2018

amadeus said:
And do you suppose that you are the final judge on God's behalf? The background of all of us is sin. Even the best of us in the Lord are still growing. Who has all of the answers always correctly but God alone?

"Pilate saith unto him, What is truth? And when he had said this, he went out again unto the Jews, and saith unto them, I find in him no fault at all." John 18:38

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6

And if a person says "yes" or "no" to any of these questions, have you got him all ready for the final judgment?

"For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again." Matt 7:2

You run off on a tangent, down a lost road on a "Simple Question", Nobody Is acting as judge as you falsely claim.

Quietthinker stated the he believes a "Human" upon death "Ceases To Exist"

This false teaching is found within 7th Day Adventism and the JW's

I have every right to ask a person their affiliation in their religious learning.

I'm non denominational Christian, with a foundation in the Assembly Of God.

Copperhead · May 31, 2018

brakelite said:
Jesus did not go to Paradise that day. He was in the grave. Therefore whatever Jesus meant when He said the thief would be there with Him at some future time, we can be certain it wasn't that day.

Well, since Yeshua and the thief died shortly before the end of that day, you could be right. But that left the next day which started at sunset shortly after the burial.

Either way...

Ephesians 4:8-9 (NKJV) Therefore He says:
“When He ascended on high,
He led captivity captive,
And gave gifts to men.”
9 Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth?

And just about every other translation renders the text similarly. I looked at a dozen. All give the idea that it was in the dark regions of the internal parts of the earth. Not some sort of descending to the surface sort of superficial thing.

So between His death and His resurrection He must have gone there and released someone. Matthew elaborates somewhat in Matthew 27:51-53.

amadeus · May 31, 2018

Truth7t7 said:
You run off on a tangent, down a lost road on a "Simple Question", Nobody Is acting as judge as you falsely claim.

Quietthinker stated the he believes a "Human" upon death "Ceases To Exist"

This false teaching is found within 7th Day Adventism and the HE's

I have every right to ask a person their affiliation in their religious learning.

I'm non denominational Christian, with a foundation in the Assembly Of God.

So then ask away, but be slow to demand an answer. Sometimes questions with regard to denomination or affiliation with specific church groups are asked to feed a preconceived notion or to win a debate rather to edify anyone. Hopefully your purpose is one to which you are led by the Holy Ghost. If a person is following Jesus according to what he understands and believes and is continuing to seek the face of God, is he in error in his walk?

brakelite · Jun 1, 2018

Copperhead said:
Well, since Yeshua and the thief died shortly before the end of that day, you could be right. But that left the next day which started at sunset shortly after the burial.

Either way...

Ephesians 4:8-9 (NKJV) Therefore He says:
“When He ascended on high,
He led captivity captive,
And gave gifts to men.”
9 Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth?

And just about every other translation renders the text similarly. I looked at a dozen. All give the idea that it was in the dark regions of the internal parts of the earth. Not some sort of descending to the surface sort of superficial thing.

So between His death and His resurrection He must have gone there and released someone. Matthew elaborates somewhat in Matthew 27:51-53.

The lower parts of the earth to my understanding means the sin-sick-corrupt nature He was given at the incarnation...the same flesh nature we all have...descending from heaven to earth. He went to the grave/sheol/hell whatever in death...the tomb. Nowhere else.

Stranger · Jun 1, 2018

Harvest 1874 said:
Punctuation is a modern invention, dating from the year 1515 A.D. It is important that we remember that at the time when the Holy Scriptures were compiled there was no such thing as proper grammar, that is as we have it today, the used of sentencing structure, paragraph divisions, punctuation's, such as comas, periods and etc. were totally unknown.

There were neither divisions of Chapters or verses nor even spacing between words.

If you should visit a good Museum containing some of the most ancient manuscripts you will see that all the words and sentences run together; there is no separation between them, and there is not a comma in the whole manuscript. This means, then, that the comma and other marks of punctuation which appear in our English versions are not inspired, but were merely inserted by the translators to bring out what they thought was the meaning of the Scriptures.

The translators of our English Bible, believing, as nearly the whole religious world does, that the moment of death is the moment of translation into heavenly bliss, inserted the comma in this particular passage to make it read in harmony with their theological dogmas.

Grammatically the comma goes equally well before or after the word "today." Rotherham, the New World translation, and Concordant place it after. It is preferred to go after "today," because until the third day, according to Acts 2:3 1, Christ went to "hell"-- which is not normally considered Paradise.

The Scriptures are inspired by God, but the translators are not; they can make mistakes.

Neither were there any vowels in the Hebrew. But the translators added them in the translation. If you don't like them, take them out, and then read your Bible.

As I said, punctuation is part of the translators work. If you don't like them, take them out and then read your Bible.

See, you want me to trust your acceptance of a modern versions placement of the comma. If you really doubt that punctuation should be there, then you need to find a Bible without it. Or, just write your own.

I trust the translators of the KJV location of the comma more than any modern translation you present. Again, not only do the modern move the comma, but they must add a question mark.

Stranger

Harvest 1874 · Jun 1, 2018

Stranger said:
Neither were there any vowels in the Hebrew. But the translators added them in the translation. If you don't like them, take them out, and then read your Bible.

As I said, punctuation is part of the translators work. If you don't like them, take them out and then read your Bible.

See, you want me to trust your acceptance of a modern versions placement of the comma. If you really doubt that punctuation should be there, then you need to find a Bible without it. Or, just write your own.

I trust the translators of the KJV location of the comma more than any modern translation you present. Again, not only do the modern move the comma, but they must add a question mark.

Stranger

First of all no one said they did not appreciate the work translators did in attempting to divide the scriptures into the various chapters, verses and etc. nor their work at adding proper grammar, punctuation and such, why you jumped to this conclusion so fast I don’t know.

I agree that many modern translations are bad, too much effort has been made to make the scriptures easy to read (such as the NIV version) at the expense of accuracy.

As for the King James Version of the bible, or the Authorized Version, this was published in 1611. In the year 1604, forty-seven persons learned in the languages were appointed to revise the translation then in use. They were ordered to use the Bishop’s Bible as the basis of the new version, and to alter it as little as the original would allow; but if the prior translations of Tyndale, Coverdale, Matthew, Cranmer or Whitechurch, and the Geneva editors agreed better with the text, to adopt the same.

This translation was perhaps the best that could be made at the time, and if it had not been published by kingly authority, it would not now be venerated by English and American Protestants, as though it had come direct from God.

It has been convicted of containing over 20,000 errors. Nearly 700 Greek MSS. are now known, and some of them very ancient; whereas the translators of the common version had only the advantage of some 8 MSS. none of which was earlier than the tenth century. Since 1611, many translations of both Old and New Testaments, and portions of the same, have been published.

There are no manuscripts earlier than the fourth century, none whatever. The two oldest manuscripts known to the world containing the Greek Testament to which dates from the age of Eusebius and Constantine are the Sinaitic (first discovered by Tischendorf in 1859, and published in 1862), containing all the twenty-seven books and the Vatican, which at one time was probably likewise complete, although the last chapters of Hebrews (from Heb.11:14), the Pastoral Epistles, Philemon, and Revelation are lost. These two oldest manuscripts are recognized by all scholars throughout the world as the most authentic and most reliable of manuscripts of the New Testament extant.

Neither of which were used in the making up of the Common Version, the King James translation.

There is wisdom in the Proverb which says, that dead flies cause precious ointment to stink. This is particularly true in respect to the Bible. It is a precious ointment of sweet odor, but certain “flies” have gotten into it whose corruptions have destroyed the perfume of the Divine records in the estimation of many—an intelligent and growing number. Some of these “dead flies” were mistranslations; some of them misinterpretations, and some of them were interpolations—unauthorized additions to the Scriptures as originally written.

I actually use the NKJ version for most of my studies, however when I want to double check a questionable text I refer to Rotherham’s Emphasized Bible (1872-1902) and or the Emphatic Diaglott which is based on the Vatican No.1209 MSS one of the oldest and most reliable MSS.

Harvest 1874 · Jun 1, 2018

Copperhead said:
Well, since Yeshua and the thief died shortly before the end of that day, you could be right. But that left the next day which started at sunset shortly after the burial.

That wouldn't have worked either seeing as his ascension didn't take place until 40 days later. That hardly "today" you will be with me in paradise.

bbyrd009 · Jun 1, 2018

oops

Truth7t7 · Jun 1, 2018

amadeus said:
If a person is following Jesus according to what he understands and believes and is continuing to seek the face of God, is he in error in his walk?

Mormons, JW's, 7th Day Adventist, preach and teach another Jesus than what is found in the Holy Bible.

The gospel according to Joseph Smith, Charles Taze Russel, And Ellen G. White

There are many that are leaning upon their own understanding, I don't believe the outcome will be fruitful.

I don't believe in remaining silent for the sake of false harmony, this I believe will be the future religion of the "Antichrist"

The thief on the cross !?

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