Looking for advice: Can women be pastors

Truth7t7 · Jun 2, 2018

"ByGrace" said:
In my circle of friends , we know many husband and wife ministries.

And among them are five couples when the man is the one who "touches the sheep"...he loves time one to one, praying for, visiting , they are great in giving wise words of counsel. They can preach okay...but the real 'feeder of the flock', the one with the anointed word of the Lord, is the woman.

There is neither male or female in Christ.

A woman under the anointing of the Holy Spirit is in the male anointing.
The seed of life is male.
A man trying to preach without the anointing of the Holy Spirit is not in the male anointing...he does not have the 'seed of life' to plant, he is impotent.

Pastors And Deacons Are To Be Married Men, Of Good Report, Ruling Their Own Houses Well.

1 Timothy 3:1-13KJV
3 This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.
11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
13 For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

A woman is to remain silent in the Church service, at no time within the Church does a woman exercise authority over the man.

1 Timothy 2:11-14KJV
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

1 Corinthians 14:33-35KJV
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

A woman is to obey and love her husband and family, be a home maker, simple.

Titus 2:3-5KJV
3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

LC627 · Jun 2, 2018

Truth7t7 said:
and be home makers

Can you clarify this statement? When the word home maker is used, is it suggesting that the wife is to be just at home, not working at a job, and raising the kids? Very few households can manage to live off 1 income nowadays especially if children are included.

Truth7t7 · Jun 2, 2018

"ByGrace" said:
Give up gracefully.....sorry, you have already lost this one.

Give up gracefully?

Feminism, Homosexuality, Liberalism, These Are Nothing New Grace, And They Are Not Part Of God's Plan.

It Appears You Need To Read And Heed.

Pastors And Deacons Are To Be Married Men, Of Good Report, Ruling Their Own Houses Well.

1 Timothy 3:1-13KJV
3 This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.
11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
13 For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

A woman is to remain silent in the Church service, at no time within the Church does a woman exercise authority over the man.

1 Timothy 2:11-14KJV
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

1 Corinthians 14:33-35KJV
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

A woman is to obey and love her husband and family, be a home maker, simple.

Titus 2:3-5KJV
3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

Triumph1300 · Jun 2, 2018

LC627 said:
Can you clarify this statement? When the word home maker is used, is it suggesting that the wife is to be just at home, not working at a job, and raising the kids? Very few households can manage to live off 1 income nowadays especially if children are included.

This is exactly whats wrong with todays society.
Both parents working in order to have two cars, fancy homes, big screen TVs, cellphones and all the other junk I grew up without.
My mother was always home when I came out of school.
Satan has perverted society in many ways.
My wife is the youngest of 9 children.
Her mother looked after the family.
She was ALWAYS home.
Very few can to that today.
But it's not impossible.

We live in a spoiled rotten society where most people think the world owes them a living.

Truth7t7 · Jun 2, 2018

LC627 said:
Can you clarify this statement? When the word home maker is used, is it suggesting that the wife is to be just at home, not working at a job, and raising the kids? Very few households can manage to live off 1 income nowadays especially if children are included.

Well it's a no brainer that the vast majority of women were keepers at home prior to World War II.

The manipulation of housing prices, food products, cars, clothing, inflation, drive the family apart and women to work?

I'm well aware of the cost of living as mom is driven from the home, homosexuality is entering the classrooms and society, women stand behind pulpits, as men sit in pews?

"The Last Day's"!

Titus 2:3-5KJV
3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

Willie T · Jun 2, 2018

Triumph1300 said:
This is exactly whats wrong with todays society.
Both parents working in order to have two cars, fancy homes, big screen TVs, cellphones and all the other junk I grew up without.
My mother was always home when I came out of school.
Satan has perverted society in many ways.
My wife is the youngest of 9 children.
Her mother looked after the family.
She was ALWAYS home.
Very few can to that today.
But it's not impossible.

We live in a spoiled rotten society where most people think the world owes them a living.

We live in a very modest neighborhood. The average income for younger people here is about $10 an hour. (Before taxes) The small house (just over 1,000 sf) next door rents for $1,300 a month.

A single worker would GROSS $1,600 a month. How is it that you say only one of them needs to work?

LC627 · Jun 2, 2018

Triumph1300 said:
This is exactly whats wrong with todays society.
Both parents working in order to have two cars, fancy homes, big screen TVs, cellphones and all the other junk I grew up without.
My mother was always home when I came out of school.
Satan has perverted society in many ways.
My wife is the youngest of 9 children.
Her mother looked after the family.
She was ALWAYS home.
Very few can to that today.
But it's not impossible.

We live in a spoiled rotten society where most people think the world owes them a living.

Society has changed and things are not what they were when our parents were younger. Even without material items the cost of living has greatly increased. It's not impossible depending on where you live and if you have a great job but there are many people in our area who simply cannot survive off one income. You can't be a home maker if you don't have a home to live in. Marriage and raising a family is a team effort, all of the house "stuff" shouldn't fall on the wife or be assigned to the wife.

LC627 · Jun 2, 2018

Willie T said:
We live in a very modest neighborhood. The average income for younger people here is about $10 an hour. (Before taxes) The small house (just over 1,000 sf) next door rents for $1,300 a month.

A single worker would GROSS $1,600 a month. How is it that you say only one of them needs to work?

My sister is paying nearly 2k alone for rent where she is.

LC627 · Jun 2, 2018

Triumph1300 said:
This is exactly whats wrong with todays society.
Both parents working in order to have two cars, fancy homes, big screen TVs, cellphones and all the other junk I grew up without.
My mother was always home when I came out of school.
Satan has perverted society in many ways.
My wife is the youngest of 9 children.
Her mother looked after the family.
She was ALWAYS home.
Very few can to that today.
But it's not impossible.

We live in a spoiled rotten society where most people think the world owes them a living.

As a chaplain I'm only going to be making around 40k a year before taxes. So lets break it down, if my wife is simply a homemaker watching the kids.
-We will need two cars: She can't be stranded at home with no transportation (Dr. appointments, errands, emergencies, etc.)
-We will need two phones: She can't no means of communication incase something happens.
-I will be paying rent (probably about 1k a month)
-I will be paying all the bills (heat, electric, water, etc.)
-I will be paying for all Dr. visits
-I will be paying for all the groceries and baby items
-I will be paying for insurance
-And of course, all my student loan debt

This list can go on and on. When we have children my wife and I are already saving so she can be a stay at home mom for the first few years but we both know that one income alone with children in this day and age on a chaplain salary is not going to cut it. I don't believe that the Bible is making the case that the wife can't work and is simply the home maker. Some people can do it and they have a great paying job, live in a area where they are able to, but for many many others, it's simply not that way.

Willie T · Jun 2, 2018

My wife and I are well-settled, and we have no money problems anymore. But, we recently took a Financial Course because we wanted to know how to help younger people. I have to tell you that it shocked the daylights out of us that so many young people are surviving on almost nothing, and STILL foolishly blow money, right and left. They honestly are living, pay check to pay check.

Willie T · Jun 2, 2018

I sure wish that if young kids could learn nothing else, they would get "Zero Budgeting" into their heads.

Truth7t7 · Jun 2, 2018

Triumph1300 said:
This is exactly whats wrong with todays society.
Both parents working in order to have two cars, fancy homes, big screen TVs, cellphones and all the other junk I grew up without.
My mother was always home when I came out of school.
Satan has perverted society in many ways.
My wife is the youngest of 9 children.
Her mother looked after the family.
She was ALWAYS home.
Very few can to that today.
But it's not impossible.

We live in a spoiled rotten society where most people think the world owes them a living.

I had to respond, your 100% correct A+ on this paper!

I grew up the same way, I'm 58 very few mother's worked in my neighborhood in the 60's- Mid 70's in So Cal

The price of housing going up in the 80's-90's drove the mother' out of the home, and yes chasing the dream of 2 car's and the house.

I know many Christian families that are keeping mom at home, and out of the Liberal Public Education System.

Working Mom's run the infants down to government day care and head start programs, giving them over to the system, sad but part of the evil plan.

William Spady's OBE education and LGBT curriculum in So Cal public schools

Kids don't ride bikes, build forts or tree houses, go fishing, mow lawns, work with tools fixing mechanical things.

No more huck fin's and Tom Sawyers as we did as kids, they are sold out to the computers and cell phones, taking all their free time, sad!

Good Post Of Truth!

Truth7t7 · Jun 2, 2018

Willie T said:
My wife and I are well-settled, and we have no money problems anymore. But, we recently took a Financial Course because we wanted to know how to help younger people. I have to tell you that it shocked the daylights out of us that so many young people are surviving on almost nothing, and STILL foolishly blow money, right and left. They honestly are living, pay check to pay check.

I agree, school debt, credit card debt, and no sense of reality.

We actually have several different companies in So Cal, payday loans etc?

That speaks for itself.

HammerStone · Jun 2, 2018

It's not an open-and-shut case.

As almost all of our Bibles don't portray this particular point, Paul specifically chose a word that was not used elsewhere in Scripture. This fact alone should give pause.

[One problematic issue is the rendering of the verb “authentein” as authority. This Greek verb is found only once in scripture and rarely in extrabiblical texts, where it is usually associated with aggression. It is translated as “domineer” in the Latin Vulgate and New English Bible and as “usurp authority” in the Geneva and King James Bibles. More on authentein here.]

Source: “But What About 1 Timothy 2:12?” Ten Talking Points - The Junia Project

In addition, the passage in I Timothy 2:12 uses the same verb as 2 Thessalonians 3:12 which refers to degree rather than total refrain.

Lastly, in 2 Timothy 1:5, Paul makes a very interesting point that would seemingly contradict his words in the first epistle to Timothy:

2 Timothy 1:5 CSB
I recall your sincere faith that first lived in your grandmother Lois and in your mother Eunice and now, I am convinced, is in you also.

2 Timothy 1:5 KJV (Just because someone will go there...)
When I call to remembrance the unfeigned faith that is in thee, which dwelt first in thy grandmother Lois, and thy mother Eunice; and I am persuaded that in thee also.

I am an English major, so I have some authority to back this with. The progression of the sentence is making a connection from Lois to Eunice to Timothy. The implication is that they had something to do with teaching Timothy the faith. In a male-centric society, this is an interesting detail in which to draw attention. While this is clear in the English, I've seen evidence where this is also conveyed in the Greek.

I'm a generally conservative Christian, but this is one area where I depart from the conservative line.

As far as using the word secret - a word which I will not I did not use - this particular subject cannot be proof-texted by the two verses that directly address it without fuller understanding of their context.

Truth7t7 · Jun 2, 2018

HammerStone said:
It's not an open-and-shut case.

As almost all of our Bibles don't portray this particular point, Paul specifically chose a word that was not used elsewhere in Scripture. This fact alone should give pause.

Source: “But What About 1 Timothy 2:12?” Ten Talking Points - The Junia Project

In addition, the passage in I Timothy 2:12 uses the same verb as 2 Thessalonians 3:12 which refers to degree rather than total refrain.

Lastly, in 2 Timothy 1:5, Paul makes a very interesting point that would seemingly contradict his words in the first epistle to Timothy:

2 Timothy 1:5 CSB
I recall your sincere faith that first lived in your grandmother Lois and in your mother Eunice and now, I am convinced, is in you also.

2 Timothy 1:5 KJV (Just because someone will go there...)
When I call to remembrance the unfeigned faith that is in thee, which dwelt first in thy grandmother Lois, and thy mother Eunice; and I am persuaded that in thee also.

I am an English major, so I have some authority to back this with. The progression of the sentence is making a connection from Lois to Eunice to Timothy. The implication is that they had something to do with teaching Timothy the faith. In a male-centric society, this is an interesting detail in which to draw attention. While this is clear in the English, I've seen evidence where this is also conveyed in the Greek.

I'm a generally conservative Christian, but this is one area where I depart from the conservative line.

As far as using the word secret - a word which I will not I did not use - this particular subject cannot be proof-texted by the two verses that directly address it without fuller understanding of their context.

We will disagree

The Femenist Movement Entered The Church First, Now It's The Homosexual Rainbow Flag Movement.

We now see Women And Homosexuals In Church Leadership, It's Been Foretold, In The Great Apostasy.

60 Million Unborn Killed Annually In The World (Abortion) As Same Sex Marriage Is Accepted Around The World.

Sodom And Gomorrah Would Blush At The World Of Today.

Russia Is In Syria, Missiles At Israel's border, As Israel has attacked Iran within Syria recently, the stage is set for Jerusalem only 90 miles from Syria being surrounded, and the man of peace AKA "Antichrist" won't be far behind, keep your eyes on Israel.

Pastors And Deacons Are To Be Married Men, Of Good Report, Ruling Their Own Houses Well.

1 Timothy 3:1-13KJV
3 This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.
11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
13 For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

A woman is to remain silent in the Church service, at no time within the Church does a woman exercise authority over the man.

1 Timothy 2:11-14KJV
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

1 Corinthians 14:33-35KJV
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

A woman is to obey and love her husband and family, be a keeper at home, simple.

Titus 2:3-5KJV
3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

Triumph1300 · Jun 2, 2018

Truth7t7 said:
We will disagree

The Femenist Movement Entered The Church First, Now It's The Homosexual Rainbow Flag Movement.

We now see Women And Homosexuals In Church Leadership, It's Been Foretold, In The Great Apostasy.

60 Million Unborn Killed Annually In The World (Abortion) As Same Sex Marriage Is Accepted Around The World.

Sodom And Gomorrah Would Blush At The World Of Today.

Russia Is In Syria, Missiles At Israel's border, As Israel has attacked Iran within Syria recently, the stage is set for Jerusalem only 90 miles from Syria being surrounded, and the man of peace AKA "Antichrist" won't be far behind, keep your eyes on Israel.

Pastors And Deacons Are To Be Married Men, Of Good Report, Ruling Their Own Houses Well.

Enoch111 · Jun 2, 2018

101G said:
if you would have you would have notice that the apostle is speaking to wives, not women in general in these verses

No, Paul is addressing all Christian women, whether single, married, or widowed. He is stating a general principle to be applied in all churches, and he has also provided the reasons.

To further support this passage, we have 1 Corinthians 14:34:
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

Unless Christians are prepared to take all passages pertaining to the distinct roles of men and women within the home and within the local assembly, all we will end up with is spiritual confusion. And spiritual confusion comes from the Adversary.

Paul gives us the reason why women may not preach, teach or usurp authority with the local church, and it must be spiritually discerned. It will make no sense to the unbeliever or the natural man, but we are told that it is because Eve disobeyed God by submitting to Satanic deception, Christian women may not take on the role of elders (who are the preachers and teacher and leaders).

Some people may say "Why should Eve's disobedience affect us today?" Well the fact of the matter is that Adam's disobedience affects the whole human race today (Rom 5:12 and following), so we should not be surprised if Eve's disobedience impacts on women today.

Enoch111 · Jun 2, 2018

OzSpen said:
Where does the Bible defend teaching 'in the pulpit'? I'm interested in the biblical basis for your statement.

If you are looking for a specific statement with those exact words, you will not find it. Which means that 1 Tim 2:12 should suffice. And furthermore there is no need for any involved exegesis or exposition on this matter. It is a plain and simple statement, meant to be simply obeyed without question.

The historical fact is that in spite of all their erroneous teachings, both the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church have never allowed women to become priests (who are also preachers) on the basis of this Scripture.

Pope Francis has said he thinks the Roman Catholic church's ban on priestly ordination for women will continue forever, saying his predecessor Pope John Paul II's declaration on the matter "goes in that direction."

Pope Francis confirms finality of ban on ordaining women priests

While a thorough answer to your question is beyond the scope of an email, it can be said that the Orthodox Church precludes the ordination of women to the priesthood and episcopacy. It is a matter of Holy Tradition, as well as a vision of ministry as something not limited to the ordained priesthood.

Ordination of Women - Questions & Answers

OzSpen · Jun 2, 2018

Truth7t7 said:
You build a big elaborate display for argument, trying to create a contradiction in scripture?

No place in the 1 Cor 11 does it state a woman is prophesying in any church full of men, you have added to scripture, something not there.

7t7,

You have created a straw man about my views. I have created NOTHING. I'm exegeting the Scriptures.

What does 1 Cor 11:5 (NIV) state? 'But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonours her head – it is the same as having her head shaved' (emphasis added).

'Every woman who prays or prophecies', means that women can prophesy in the Corinthian context with their heads 'covered'.

Where is prophecy delivered?

Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy. 2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit. 3 But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort. 4 Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church. 5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified (1 Cor 14:1-5 NIV, emphasis added)

'The one who prophesies 'edifies the church' through 'strengthening, encouraging and comfort'. That's Bible!

It is nothing of the sort that I am 'trying to create a contradiction in scripture'. It is the traditional understanding that creates the conflict. My exegesis of 1 Cor 11:5 and 1 Cor 14:1-5 demonstrates that prophecy takes place in the church and women can't prophesy publicly and be silent at that same time. That's an oxymoron.

Therefore, the silence of women in the Corinthian church (1 Cor 14:34-35 NIV) had to deal with something disorderly that was happening at Corinth. Those women who were engaging in this conduct were told to 'be silent' (shut up) and ask their husbands at home. I do wish Paul had explained with more detail. He didn't, so I'm left with the understanding that women caused the problem in the church gathering and these out-of-order women had to quit what they were doing.

It was never meant to silence women in the church for 2,000 years. It was a local situation that needed to be corrected.l

Oz

OzSpen · Jun 2, 2018

101G said:
To LC627,

I'll post this in steps, with the limit of 1,000 character I'll put it in two Posts. but you can copy and paste them into one on your computer for you reading.

Back in 2008 I was confronted with this same topic, and had to go to God for the answer.

To fully understand this question of “female pastors”, one must understand what a pastor is. the traditional definition is a leader, usually male, who Shepard God flock. meaning the person who charge is to care for the flock. but is pastor, or pastoring, (which is a bishop position), an office, or a gift? traditionally, it has been view as an office in the western world of thought and mind. this view is incorrect, there is no word in the Hebrew representing office as we see it. in the Hebrew mindset, it’s a work/deed, a function, or a position of service, (see W.E. Vines Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words on office), which we will see later. but let’s find out what a pastor is, from the bible prospective.

Question: Pastors, that are in the body of Christ, (the church). are they, A. Called. B. Sent, or C. Given? I’m speaking biblically of pastors, not preachers, teachers, or Evangelist etc.... meaning not of the tradition men. My answer would be C. Given? let’s see it according to God’s Holy Word. Starting with Jeremiah 3:15 God give us the work of the pastor. "And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding". here we see in the old testament pastors are to be given (a gift). what about the new testament? Ephesian 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ”.

so, speaking of pastors only, we can see clearly that Pastors are given, it's a gift, not a position. again, we are talking about Pastors/bishops here, not what are called preachers, apostles, or prophets, etc..... but Pastors. according to Jeremiah 3:15 pastors are given to do a work, or task which is to, “feed the flock of God with knowledge and understanding,” why? so that the child of God is no longer tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and their cunning craftiness”.

we now know, and have establish by the scriptures, that Pastors are given (which is a gift) from God own heart. to be sure in your own mind read again Jeremiah 3:15. it is a gift of God/the Holy Spirit himself. this gift was promise to us according to the prophet Joel, in chapters 2, verses 28 & 29. let’s see what was promise us and all that God will call. but keep in mind Jeremiah 3:15. now Joel 2:28 & 29 “And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: 29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit, saith the LORD”.

"Reproofing that Prophet only prophesy"
most misconception is that prophets only predict, or foretell the future, by God. that’s not all true. let’s break this first taboo by scriptures. in verse 28, the word prophesy, means to speak, talk, or to preach, and correctly to teach. we all know the story of Jonah in the belly of, a great fish. some say the whale. we all know that he is a prophet, this is the point. what did he do as a prophet? after refusing to go to Nineveh the first time, and the LORD putting him in the belly of the Great fish, (three days and three nights), what happen next? Jonah changed his mind and obeyed God. so, what was his mission at Nineveh? lets pick up the conversation at Jonah 3:1. "And the word of the LORD came unto Jonah the second time, saying, 2 Arise, go unto Nineveh, that great city, and preach unto it the preaching that I bid thee”. so here, we clearly see that the prophet Jonah preached. Prophets then, …… as well as today, not only foretell future events, but PREACH the word of God in discourse. this breaks that old taboo that prophet only foretell or predict the future, we have scriptures that prophets preached throughout the bible, but I used this one because it's so well known. at the end of this topic is the word power section, one will be given a better understand of prophesy.

but here in Jonah case, we see that prophets also preached. and there was a many of female prophets in the bible. this is step #1. in getting to female or women Pastors. first we tare down barriers.

"Making the connection"
The Holy Ghost Teaches,

The fulfillment of Joel 2:28 & 29, and female Pastors.

In Jeremiah 3:15 God is giving pastors, and in Joel 2, God is going to pour out his Spirit, (on all flesh). This is very important in understanding pastors. this out-pouring of his Spirit happen or was fulfilled on Pentecost.

Acts 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
Acts 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
Acts 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance”.

The Apostles are speaking with other tongues. hold that thought. forward a few verses to Acts 2:16. the apostle Peter said,” but this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel”. here the apostle Peter is clearly identifying that as to what was happening here at Pentecost, this, (speaking in tongues), is that which was spoke/foretold by the prophet Joel. now Act 2:17 “And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens, I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy”. this is the fulfillment of Joel 2:28 & 29 on the day of Pentecost is now realized on the day of Pentecost .

Question time listen closely. if this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel, then I have a question? why is the apostle Peter speaking, (preaching) in other tongues? is there anything in Joel 2:28 & 29 that says anything about speaking in other tongues? .........YES, or may I say a resounding YES. let’s look a little closer, with the wisdom from God through his eyes, and seeing the spiritual revelation. what is listed in Joel 2:28 & 29, can you agree, that, 1. prophesy, 2. dream, 3. visions, are mention in Joel correct? so why are they, (the apostles), speaking with other tongues? is speaking in tongues listed in Joel 2:28 & 29. look at those verses and tell if you see “speaking in tongues” there. Congratulations, if you see it in Joel 2:28 & 29, if so, then come to the head of the class, (for it is there, only hidden to the naked eye, and the natural mind). one can only see “speaking in tongues” in Joel 2, with their Spiritual eyes, and here is the answer to Joel 2;28 & 29. The answer is found in Act 2:4 “And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance”.

so now we can see why Peter was speaking in other tongues. it was the gift of the Holy Spirit that did it. The prophet Joel said that God would pour out his Spirit. and that is just what God did. and by his Spirit, the apostles were able to speak in tongues. by the giving of the Spirit, it is one of the gift of the Holy Spirit that enables one to speak in tongues. in Joel chapter 2, that’s why we didn’t see it physically in words, “speaking in tongues”. because “speaking in tongues” is in the Spirit that was poured out as, (a GIFT). our natural eyes will never see this. the gift of other tongues was in the out pouring of the Holy Spirit. let’s see it clearly.

The Greek language used in Eph 4:11 for 'pastors and teachers' should be pastor-teachers as it refers to one person - because of the one definite article that precedes and 2 nouns.

It is only in this verse that pastors also are called teachers. Elsewhere in the NT we have the gift of teacher or the ministry of being a shepherd. Some have only one of the gifts.

Oz

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