Baptism ?

Marymog said:

Jesus then goes on to talk about water baptism in John 3:5 being necessary to enter the kingdom of God.

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Jesus did NOT say "water baptism". He simply said "water". It is up to us to understand what He meant by "water" since water baptism does not save anyone, and the Holy Spirit is given to believers BEFORE they are baptized.

So when we turn to 1 Peter 1:23-25, we can see that "water" is in fact a metaphor for the Gospel (also called the Word of God).

Sinners believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and are saved because (1) the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation (Rom 1:16), and (2) the Holy Spirit uses the Gospel to convict and to convince sinners (John 16:7-11).

We see this demonstrated in Acts 2:36-41. It is only after these Jews repented and believed that they received the gift of the Holy Spirit, and it is only after they were saved that they were baptized. If you go through the book of Acts, you will see this pattern repeated over and over again.

BreadOfLife said:

I asked you WHAT the "water" Jesus spoke of in John 3:5 pertains to. In other words, what is He talking about when He mentions "Water".

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Please see my post above. "Water" here is a metaphor for the Gospel.
It is called "the WATER OF THE WORD" in Eph 5:26. The Word of God is "quick" (alive) and powerful and sharper than any two-edged sword (Heb 4:12,13). Thus it becomes the power of God unto salvation accompanied by the Holy Spirit.
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

H. Richard said:

***
Mary, show me where it says baptism in water. In this whole dialogue there is no mention of baptism.

The following is a quote from my study on water baptism. You would do well to at least think about what is says before you write your reply against it.

""" Many people use John 3:1-6 to support water baptism. -- But what do these scriptures really say?

**** Scripture
John 3:1-6 .. (NIV)
1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council.
2 He came to Jesus at night and said, "Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him."
3 In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."
4 "How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"
5 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.
6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.
**** end scripture

It seems to me that in verses 3 and 4 there are only two births being discussed, a man's first birth in the flesh and a necessary second birth of the Spirit. -- Notice that in verse 5 he used the words "born of water" and then "the spirit" and in verse 6, "WHICH AMPLIFIES VERSE 5," He uses the words "birth to flesh" and then "birth to spirit." Nicodemus has brought up the subject of being born in the flesh for a second time. What has been said is that physical birth is not enough. Some will disagree but I believe he is talking about our physical birth "birth to flesh" in verse 5 and that there is another birth, "birth to spirit" which is accomplished by the Holy Spirit (NOT MAN)

Since the word baptism was not included in the text, to add it is to change the meaning of the word of God to fit into the theologies of men.

It has been said by another: I think it would be trivial to tell Nicodemus that he had to be born of the water if this meant physical birth. After all, he had already gone through this birth. Why bother to tell him then? -- Why, because it was Nicodemus that brought up the idea of going back into the womb and being born again.

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Dear sir,

You stated "Some will disagree.....". You are right...'some' will disagree: Martin Luther said: “Here [John 3:5] Christ is speaking of Baptism, of real and natural water such as a cow may drink. . . . Here Christ also speaks of the Holy Spirit and teaches us to regard Baptism as a spiritual, yes, a Spirit-filled water, in which the Holy Spirit is present and active. . . . And thus the person who has been baptized is said to be born anew. . . . . In this passage Christ declares that whoever is not born anew of the water and the Holy Spirit cannot come into the kingdom of God. Therefore God’s words dare not be tampered with. Of course, we are well aware that Baptism is natural water. But after the Holy Spirit is added to it, we have more than mere water. It becomes a veritable bath of rejuvenation, a living bath which washes and purges man of sin and death, which cleanses him of all sin."

Research and read what Protestant commentator R.V.G. Tasker said in Tyndale New Testament Commentaries: The Gospel According to St. John 4: 71.

This new teaching you have suggested began AFTER the Reformation. The Early Church did not practice what you believe. The Reformers didn't practice what you believe. Scripture doesn't' support what you believe. Scripture is clear that water = baptism. What is the water that is referred to in that passage???

Acts 22:16, Acts 8:36, Acts 16:31 refer to water baptism.

I will repeat what I said before: The NT is rife with water baptism. When one looks at the totality of John, and the rest of the NT, we can easily see that He was referring to water baptism. I prefer to put scripture in context. You prefer to cherry pick scripture to fit your belief. Your belief has only been taught for about 500 years.

All historical Christian writings from the time show that they practiced water baptism. Should I believe your theory or the Christians who lived closer to the time of Christ and the Apostles???

What did Jesus mean when he said to Nicodemus: You are Israel's teacher and do you not understand these things?

From whom did you get your teaching from? Or are you just being antagonistic?? If you are, I don't mind.

Post #73 and 74 are well written by @BreadOfLife so I refer you to them also.

Water saved Moses during the Exodus. Water saved Noah and his family. Water is one of the means used to bring about ritual purity. Persons who were unclean in a religious sense had to subject to a bath of purification (Leviticus 13-15). Ezekiel 16: 9 mentions a washing with water and an anointing with oil, through which Jerusalem was received into a covenant of salvation. This can also be understood as a reference to Holy Baptism with water and Holy Sealing.


Mary

Enoch111 said:

Jesus did NOT say "water baptism". He simply said "water". It is up to us to understand what He meant by "water" since water baptism does not save anyone, and the Holy Spirit is given to believers BEFORE they are baptized.

So when we turn to 1 Peter 1:23-25, we can see that "water" is in fact a metaphor for the Gospel (also called the Word of God).

Sinners believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and are saved because (1) the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation (Rom 1:16), and (2) the Holy Spirit uses the Gospel to convict and to convince sinners (John 16:7-11).

We see this demonstrated in Acts 2:36-41. It is only after these Jews repented and believed that they received the gift of the Holy Spirit, and it is only after they were saved that they were baptized. If you go through the book of Acts, you will see this pattern repeated over and over again.

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Hi Enoch,

Are you the Enoch referred to in Acts 8:36? If so, he was WATER baptized

IN CONTEXT to all that is written in the book of John and the rest of the NT Jesus was IN FACT equating WATER to BAPTISM.

The word water NOR baptism is ever mentioned in 1 Peter 1:23-25 and it has NOTHING to do with baptism. Putting 1 Peter in CONTEXT the subject matter is about being Holy.

From whom have you received your teaching?

Bible Study Mary

Enoch111 said:

Jesus did NOT say "water baptism". He simply said "water". It is up to us to understand what He meant by "water" since water baptism does not save anyone, and the Holy Spirit is given to believers BEFORE they are baptized.

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So when we turn to 1 Peter 1:23-25, we can see that "water" is in fact a metaphor for the Gospel (also called the Word of God).[/quote]Jesus was baptized in the metaphorical Jordan River? Interesting...

Sinners believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and are saved because (1) the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation (Rom 1:16), and (2) the Holy Spirit uses the Gospel to convict and to convince sinners (John 16:7-11).

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Acts 9:18 – Paul, even though he was directly chosen by Christ and immediately converted to Christianity, still had to be baptized to be forgiven his sin. This is a powerful text which demonstrates the salvific efficacy of water baptism, even for those who decide to give their lives to Christ.

Acts 22:16 – Ananias tells Paul, “arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins,” even though Paul was converted directly by Jesus Christ. This proves that Paul’s acceptance of Jesus as personal Lord and Savior was not enough to be forgiven of his sin and saved. The sacrament of baptism is required.

Titus 3:5-7 – “He saved us by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which He poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ, so that we might be justified by His grace and become heirs of eternal life.” This is a powerful text which proves that baptism regenerates our souls and is thus salvific. The “washing of regeneration” “saves us.”

Regeneration is never symbolic, and the phrase “saved us” refers to salvation. By baptism, we become justified by His grace (interior change) and heirs of eternal life (filial adoption). Because this refers to baptism, the verse is about the beginning of the life in Christ. No righteous deeds done before baptism could save us. Righteous deeds after baptism are necessary for our salvation.

We see this demonstrated in Acts 2:36-41. It is only after these Jews repented and believed that they received the gift of the Holy Spirit, and it is only after they were saved that they were baptized. If you go through the book of Acts, you will see this pattern repeated over and over again.

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Really? Then why does Peter say in verse 38 of your quote:
Peter said to them, (1)“Repent,(2) and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ (3) so that your sins may be forgiven; (4)and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Baptism with water is normative, it is not an absolute command because there are 3 kinds of baptisms. If God chooses to fill a person with the Holy Spirit before baptism, it just means Original Sin has been dealt with by some extraordinary means. I don't tell God what to do.

Acts 8:12-13; 36; 10:47 – if belief is all one needs to be saved, why is everyone instantly baptized after learning of Jesus?

I posit you don't understand baptism.

Acts 22:16 – Ananias tells Paul, “arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins,” even though Paul was converted directly by Jesus Christ. This proves that Paul’s acceptance of Jesus as personal Lord and Savior was not enough to be forgiven of his sin and saved. The sacrament of baptism is required.

Acts 22:16 – further, Ananias’ phrase “wash away” comes from the Greek word “apolouo.” “Apolouo” means an actual cleansing which removes sin. It is not a symbolic covering up of sin. Even though Jesus chose Paul directly in a heavenly revelation, Paul had to be baptized to have his sins washed away.

Rom. 6:4 – in baptism, we actually die with Christ so that we, like Him, might be raised to newness of life. This means that, by virtue of our baptism, our sufferings are not in vain. They are joined to Christ and become efficacious for our salvation.

1 Cor. 6:11 – Paul says they were washed, sanctified, and justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, in reference to baptism. The “washing” of baptism gives birth to sanctification and justification, which proves baptism is not just symbolic.

Col. 2:12 – in baptism, we literally die with Christ and are raised with Christ. It is a supernatural reality, not just a symbolic ritual. The Scriptures never refer to baptism as symbolic, or metaphorical water.

Titus 3:5-7 – “He saved us by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which He poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ, so that we might be justified by His grace and become heirs of eternal life.”

This is a powerful text which proves that baptism regenerates our souls and is thus salvific. The “washing of regeneration” “saves us.” Regeneration is never symbolic, and the phrase “saved us” refers to salvation. By baptism, we become justified by His grace (interior change) and heirs of eternal life (filial adoption). Because this refers to baptism, the verse is about the beginning of the life in Christ. No righteous deeds done before baptism could save us. Righteous deeds after baptism are necessary for our salvation.

There is also a definite parallel between John 3:5 and Titus 3:5:
(1) John 3:5 – enter the kingdom of God / Titus 3:5 – He saved us.
(2) John 3:5 – born of water / Titus 3:5 – washing.
(3) John 3:5 – born of the Spirit / Titus 3:5 – renewal in the Spirit.

12 REASONS THE BELIEVER

IN THE GOSPEL OF THE GRACE OF GOD

IS ETERNALLY SECURE

This is from our church, maybe this will help ?


http://www.rightlydividing.org/secondarypages/12REASONSFORETERNALSECURITY.htm

Enoch111 said:

Please see my post above. "Water" here is a metaphor for the Gospel.
It is called "the WATER OF THE WORD" in Eph 5:26. The Word of God is "quick" (alive) and powerful and sharper than any two-edged sword (Heb 4:12,13). Thus it becomes the power of God unto salvation accompanied by the Holy Spirit.
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

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Sooooo, because Paul refers to God's WORD as the "water " long AFTER Jesus walked the earth - then that means Jesus ALSO used this metaphor??
You DON'T see the correlation of the first THREE chapters of John being literally drenched in WATER (H2O)??

- In John 1, we see the Baptism of Jesus. We see WATER (H2O) and the Holy Spirit in the form of a dove.

--In John 2, we see Jesus perform His first miracle at the Wedding at Cana - turning WATER (H2O) into wine.

- In John 3, we see Jesus describing Baptism with WATER ans the SPIRIT to Nicodemus.
What do Jesus and the Apostles do immediately AFTER talking to Nicodemus?? They do a'BAPTIZIN' with WATER (H2O).

You can cherry-pick all you want - but the CONTEXT of Jesus's conversation with Nicodemus is about WATER Baptism.

Grams said:

12 REASONS THE BELIEVER
IN THE GOSPEL OF THE GRACE OF GOD
IS ETERNALLY SECURE
This is from our church, maybe this will help ?
http://www.rightlydividing.org/secondarypages/12REASONSFORETERNALSECURITY.htm

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These 12 reasons are ALL the same, tired, unscriptural reasons that have been regurgitated repeatedly on this thread. In other words - The Bible teaches DIFFERENTLY than your church does.

I gave you about EIGHTEEN Biblical reasons why there is NO such thing as OSAS or "Eternal Security".
You haven't addressed them yet . . .
Matt. 7:19-23, Matt. 10:22, Matt. 24:13, Matt. 25:31–46, John 15:1-6, Rom. 11:22, 1 Cor. 9:27, 1 Cor. 4:4, 1 Tim. 4:1, Heb. 3:6, Heb. 3:12-14, Heb 6:4-6, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Pet.r 3:17, 1 John 2:24, 1 John 5:13, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19

Triumph1300 said:

We were talking about Cornelius baptism with the Holy Spirit.
I personally received it the same way as Cornelius did, before water baptism.
Others received it during water baptism or after water baptism.
God can pour out His Spirit anyway He wants.

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Haha! Very true. God can, and God does!

My uncle wanted the baptism in the Spirit..and went for prayer.
My dad, (his twin brother) said - " Well God wont baptize you in His Spirit because you still smoke a pipe."
My uncle still went for prayer...my dad was very surprised when the Holy Spirit fell powerfully on my uncle!!

A couple of months later he did give up his pipe...only when God asked him to.

Haha, He baptized a pipe smoker.
Tell you what.....I smoked a pipe at that time as well.
That was around 1980-81

Now I'm 14 years smoke free after a hospital visit.....

BreadOfLife said:

You can cherry-pick all you want - but the CONTEXT of Jesus's conversation with Nicodemus is about WATER Baptism.

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Not really. Nicodemus would have been familiar with the terms of the New Covenant, and would have understood that water had a spiritual and metaphorical meaning.

EZEKIEL 36 -- WATER AND SPIRIT
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

That is a spiritual cleansing, which ordinary water cannot accomplish.

Triumph1300

Is that your picture ? is that you ?

Enoch111 said:

Not really. Nicodemus would have been familiar with the terms of the New Covenant, and would have understood that water had a spiritual and metaphorical meaning.

EZEKIEL 36 -- WATER AND SPIRIT
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

That is a spiritual cleansing, which ordinary water cannot accomplish.

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Because you refuse to understand what baptism is. Those verses do not exclude water baptism, and baptism at the time of Ezekiel was underdeveloped. That is a typical Calvinist tactic: if A is true, then B must be false. It's called a false dichotomy.

Please, name one church or group that teaches baptismal metaphorical water. Better still, find ANY Protestant theologian from any century that supports your invention. I surfed around and all I could find was one wacky article, no group or church. You must have made it up.

Grams said:

Is that your picture ? is that you ?

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Lol. No.
Why? Did you fall in love?

epostle1 said:

Please, name one church or group that teaches baptismal metaphorical water.

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The issue is not about "metaphorical water". Christians must ask themselves what is involved in the New Birth. If it is supernatural (which all recognize) then what elements has God provided to bring this about?

1. The Gospel -- For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. (Rom 1:16)

23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: 25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you. (1 Pet 1:23-25).

2. The Holy Spirit -- That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (John 3:6)

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost (Tit 3:5)

Enoch111 said:

Not really. Nicodemus would have been familiar with the terms of the New Covenant, and would have understood that water had a spiritual and metaphorical meaning.

EZEKIEL 36 -- WATER AND SPIRIT
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

That is a spiritual cleansing, which ordinary water cannot accomplish.

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You didn't continue reading after verse 5, did you??
Yes, Nicodemus SHOULD have known - and Jesus scolds him for it:
John 3:10-12
Jesus answered and said to him, “You are the teacher of Israel and you do not understand this?
Amen, amen, I say to you, we speak of what we know and we testify to what we have seen, but YOU PEOPLE do not accept our testimony.
If I tell you about earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you about heavenly things?

Bottom line here is that Nicodemus SHOULD have understood about water baptism and rebirth - but he didn't, and that's why Jesus let him have it.

BreadOfLife said:

These 12 reasons are ALL the same, tired, unscriptural reasons that have been regurgitated repeatedly on this thread. In other words - The Bible teaches DIFFERENTLY than your church does.

I gave you about EIGHTEEN Biblical reasons why there is NO such thing as OSAS or "Eternal Security".
You haven't addressed them yet . . .
Matt. 7:19-23, Matt. 10:22, Matt. 24:13, Matt. 25:31–46, John 15:1-6, Rom. 11:22, 1 Cor. 9:27, 1 Cor. 4:4, 1 Tim. 4:1, Heb. 3:6, Heb. 3:12-14, Heb 6:4-6, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Pet.r 3:17, 1 John 2:24, 1 John 5:13, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19

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You do not understand !!!!!!!!!!! Things are changed after JESUS went to the cross ....

Works and things are gone .......... for salvation that is.

It is always good to do you best....... But in the new T. of the bible things are now different.

And a lot of church's are not paying attention to the bible correctly these day's..
Our time is now different........ There is a time past , but Now , and Ages to come.

ALL DIFFERENT TIMES AND WORKS........

Grams said:

You do not understand !!!!!!!!!!! Things are changed after JESUS went to the cross ....
Works and things are gone .......... for salvation that is.
It is always good to do you best....... But in the new T. of the bible things are now different.
And a lot of church's are not paying attention to the bible correctly these day's..
Our time is now different........ There is a time past , but Now , and Ages to come.
ALL DIFFERENT TIMES AND WORKS........

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Wrong.

The finished work of Jesus on the cross does not "absolve" us from DOING the will of God.
Jesus said in NO uncertain terms:
Matt. 7:21
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.

In other words, my confused friend - belief is NOT enough. James makes this perfectly clear (James 2:14-26).

True Faith = Belief + Obedience (works).
One without the other is worthless, as we see in Matt. 7:22-23.

BreadOfLife said:

I will answer YOUR question when you answer mine.
I asked you WHAT the "water" Jesus spoke of in John 3:5 pertains to. In other words, what is He talking about when He mentions "Water".

I will be more than happy to discuss this with you - but please answer the question.

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***

I did answer your question in reply #71, but you can't see it because you do not have the Holy Spirit (You are not born of the Holy Spirit)

There is no reason for me to make a reply to you since you are incapable of reading it. Many have replied to you but you are very good at sticking your head in the sand and hoping it will go away.

H. Richard said:

***

I did answer your question in reply #71, but you can't see it because you do not have the Holy Spirit (You are not born of the Holy Spirit)

There is no reason for me to make a reply to you since you are incapable of reading it. Many have replied to you but you are very good at sticking your head in the sand and hoping it will go away.

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Uhhhh, no - you replied to somebody ELSE and expected me to go hunting through the posts.
Why didn't you simply point me to this post in the first place?

Okay - I have read your post several times now and NOWHERE do you explain what the "Water" represents in John 3:5. You make a vague reference to it representing the "flesh" - but you dodge any specific explanation.

Why are you so afraid to make a commitment here?? Why don't you just explain to us exactly what the "water" that Jesus is speaking of is??
I have debated this verse with MANY Protestants - and almost ALL of them gave me their exact position on it. Almost NONE of them evaded it as you're doing.

PLEASE enlighten me . . .