Rebirth - Salvation and Conversion

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BreadOfLife

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Fascinating ~
You have an "INITIAL" Salvation given you, WITH "Conditions" for YOU to KEEP It.

Well that is not what Scripture teaches.
A Converted man has RECEIVE Salvation ONCE and forever and CHRIST'S Indwelling Power KEEPS the man unto Him Forever.

That would be appropriate for a man UNDER the Law. He does NOT have the Spirit of Christ's Power IN him......seems that also applies to Catholics.

So you are NOT a NEW Creature IN Christ, but rather, by your own efforts you attempt to REMAIN faithful. A catholic UNDER Jewish Law? Relying on your own power?
Yipes.

How is God Working IN YOU IF your are not Converted ?
How about speaking to the Spiritual aspect instead of using Titles?

What about when a Saved and Born Again Converted man SINS (ie Rejects God)...
Oh Wait. That is NOT Possible. A Saved and Born Again Converted man, IS Kept Faithful to the Lord FOREVER, By the Lords Indwelling Power.


Uh huh....a man WHO IS NOT Saved, Not Born Again, Not Converted, Not a new Creature......yes, he Can turn away....

But a Converted New Creature....can NEVER turn away.

New Creatures ARE SAVED, ARE BORN AGAIN, ARE CONVERTED.....they are NOT Earning their way into Gods Kingdom BY "cooperating" are "you" say.
And what this verbose rant amounts to is the text in RED.

I have begged you on several threads now to give me some SCRIPTURAL proof for the false teaching that we can "never" fall away once we are born again - and you have turned tail and RUN in every instance. You have FAILED to provide even one verse that supports this man-made invention. The ible says we CAN fall away (Matt. 5:13, Matt. 7:21, Rom. 11:22, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Peter 2:20-22, 2 Peter 3:17, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19)

As for a born again believe being "unable" to sin - the BIBLE disagrees with you . . .
(Rom, 7:7-25, James 5:16, 1 John 1:8)
 

APAK

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I read another wordy diatribe. What I DON'T see here is an explanation or Scriptural proof for your FALSE claim that born again believers are "no longer" sinners.
This is an anti-Biblical claim - all of your personal attacks, notwithstanding . . .

...the term 'sinner(s)' has a specific meaning in scripture BOL..and not 'living in sin' is another specific meaning in scripture. You of course know these in verse in scripture immediately.

Have a great day BOL...really

APAK
 
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BreadOfLife

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...the term 'sinner(s)' has a specific meaning in scripture BOL..and not 'living in sin' is another specific meaning in scripture. You of course know these in verse in scripture immediately.

Have a great day BOL...really

APAK
Soooooo, you're NOW saying that a born again person can sin?
With all of your flip-flopping - I kinda lost track.
 

Helen

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I read another wordy diatribe. What I DON'T see here is an explanation or Scriptural proof for your FALSE claim that born again believers are "no longer" sinners.
This is an anti-Biblical claim - all of your personal attacks, notwithstanding . . .

Oh come on BOL....born again christians..can and do still sin, ( miss the mark) but they are no longer "sinners". That is what we were.

We must say what Jesus and God word says about us..even when we don't feel like it. We walk by faith ( which comes via hearing) not by our feelings.
The Lord said - "Now ye are clean..".

Saved, set apart , light , no longer darkness, a kingdom of priests , a peculiar people. His Body. No longer sinners, but saints.

Our feet get dusty as we walk through this world...but our position "in Him" is as he sees us, not how we see ourselves and each other.

Helen
 

epostle1

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th

SALVATION INOCULATION
IMMUNIZE YOUR FREE WILL TODAY!


 

BreadOfLife

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Oh come on BOL....born again christians..can and do still sin, ( miss the mark) but they are no longer "sinners". That is what we were.

We must say what Jesus and God word says about us..even when we don't feel like it. We walk by faith ( which comes via hearing) not by our feelings.
The Lord said - "Now ye are clean..".

Saved, set apart , light , no longer darkness, a kingdom of priests , a peculiar people. His Body. No longer sinners, but saints.

Our feet get dusty as we walk through this world...but our position "in Him" is as he sees us, not how we see ourselves and each other.

Helen
We will always be sinners until we are fully sanctified in Heaven. We are not yet in this state.
A "sinner" is one who sins - not just a person who chooses a sinful life over God.

Using hyperbole, Paul even refers to himself as "CHIEF" of sinners (1 Tim. 1:15).
Remember - Jesus didn't build His the Church as a museum of perfect saints. It is a hospital for sinners . . .
 

twinc

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Oh come on BOL....born again christians..can and do still sin, ( miss the mark) but they are no longer "sinners". That is what we were.

We must say what Jesus and God word says about us..even when we don't feel like it. We walk by faith ( which comes via hearing) not by our feelings.
The Lord said - "Now ye are clean..".

Saved, set apart , light , no longer darkness, a kingdom of priests , a peculiar people. His Body. No longer sinners, but saints.

Our feet get dusty as we walk through this world...but our position "in Him" is as he sees us, not how we see ourselves and each other.

Helen


born again Christians are neither Christians nor born again - they are still beasts who refuse to put on Christ or divinity via the Eucharist and walk no more with Him but with other beasts imho - twinc
 

Taken

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One is in Christ by choice therefore can leave Christ by choice.

No.

Again, there is no verse(s) that says when a man believes it will be impossible for him to ever stop believing.

You are without understanding.

Again, you give no book chapter and verse to back this up.

2 Cor 5:17
Matt 13:3
John `12:40
Jas 5:28
John 6:51
Palm 1:15
Heb 10:14
2 John 1:2
1 John 2:13
1 John 2:14
1 John 5:4
Rev 2:7



One verse Hebrews 3:12 kills your opinion on this issue.

False. Hebrews is speaking of an evil heart.
Apparently you are without understanding that an evil heart is not a NEW heart the man receives when he is Converted.

Where are "your" scriptures that say:

A man can be Converted,
....then "UN-Converted'?

A mans spirit can be Born Again,
....then "UN-Born again"?

A man can be IN Christ,
....then NOT "IN" Christ?

A mans soul can be Saved,
....then "Un-Saved"?

A man can receive a new Heart,
....then get his "old heart back"?

A man can become A NEW Creature,
....then revive and become the OLD dead creature?

When Jesus says For ever His Spirit will dwell in a man,
....He didn't mean For ever?

Hummm?
 

Taken

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Yes, learniing is a process one goes through to find out things about God

Yes.

But becoming

Already covered that, and you just agreed.
It is a mans process to learn about God.....
BEFORE, he is prepared to MAKE a Commitment to God.

and remaining saved is also a process and you have not proven otherwise.

You have Not said HOW this "REMAINING" IS accomplished.

But I did on several occasions....
It is BY THE POWER of the Lord within the man.

So what is your claim?
Have you BEEN Converted?
And if so, Did you RECEIVE Salvation as part of your Conversion?

And are you teaching YOU have to KEEP your Salvation, BY YOUR POWER, or you will BECOME "UN-saved"? Un-converted?

Again, can you prove to us that Abraham being reckoned righteous/justified was not a process but rather something that happened in one quick instance of time when he had "faith only"?

Don't know about you....
But for me, ON THE DAY I was Converted, I was Saved unto the Lord Forever. I was born again, with Gods Seed. I am Forever Kept UNTO the Lord, By His Power.

No, it was not a process for the Lord to ACCOMPLISH those things IN ME. It was QUICK, INSTANT, on that one day, and Was a Day of Joy and Gladness for me.

Abraham had his DAY of Conversion also, and Received the Seed of God. And on his DAY, of receiving Christ, he was blessed and he was glad.
John 8:56
Gen 14: 18-19
Gal 3:16

You revealing the knowledge Abraham was accounted Righteous by God, IS your notice he was Converted.

Further you should have learned, men are called to BE saints.
1 Cor 1:2

A man who is Converted, is accounted as a saint.

A Conversion INCLUDES accounting the man Righteous, Because his UNRighteousness is forgiven and covered and remembered no more.
Heb 8:12
1 JOHN 1:9
 
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Taken

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The wages of sin is death and that means

Point blank.
The LIFE of ALL Bodies IS THEIR BLOOD.
God REQUIRES the LIFE (BLOOD) of ALL BODIES.
ALL BODIES SHALL DIE, which is ALL BODIES SHALL pay their own price FOR their OWN sin, with their OWN Corrupt BLOOD.

Jesus' PURE BLOOD, Paid the price, FOR ALL men TO RECEIVE Forgiveness FOR their Corrupt Blood and Disbelief IN God.

Men WHO trust to heartfully believe IN Him, receive His forgiveness....and His Gift of becoming a new Creature WiTH Everlasting Life.
 

APAK

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Because the positive part of the verse does not apply to the sinner that continues to impenitently live in sin.....as adultery.

The wages of sin is death and that means any sin committed by anyone who continues impenitently in sin as the person I gave in my scenario. And Romans 6:23 does not allow for exceptions therefore one must create a verse out of thin air that says "the wages of sin is eternal life for some".



I do not find in the Bible where 'accepting this free gift" is an UNconditional one and done thing do in an instance of time when a person has 'faith only'. The gift of eternal life is conditional upon one having an obedient faith. Logically therefore one must continue to meet the condition if he is to have the gift of eternal life in the world to come (Luke 18:30). Again, one must make up a verse out of thin air that teaches one can quit meeting the condition yet still have eternal life in the world to come.



Again, the Christian in my scenario that ended up running off with his neighbors wife and lived and died impenitently in adultery falls into those of Galatians 5:19-21. This verse also makes NO EXCEPTIONS for it does not say "some adulterers will inherit the kingdom of God while other adulterers will not inherit the kingdom of God." ALL adulterers, none lacking, will not inherit the kingdom of God.



A person can know he is saved if he remains faithfully obedient to the Lord. Paul KNEW he would be saved for he knew he had "fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith" and because of this life long faithfulness "Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness".

The crown of righteousness is not given for some unknown or capricious reasons but the text tells us it is given "henceforth" to his life long process of fighting a good fight, finishing the course and keeping the faith.


His salvation was a process up until he died. He was faithful unto death per Revelations 2:10 for he did not quit the fight, did not quit running the course, did not quit the faith.

Your position is that Paul could have quit all of this and yet still be saved?


Are you Calvinist in what you believe?
Ernest:

You said that a person can know he is saved if he remains faithfully obedient to the Lord.

If this was the case no one can be saved. Where in scripture does it say or comes close to suggesting that to be saved we must ‘remain faithfully obedient to the Lord.’ What is your measure or threshold or meaning of ‘remains’…is it 100 % of the time, or 50% of the time?

That is why we need God to lead us to Jesus his way and by his word in scripture; and its all there. I have written a brief summary to another of this site called the Road to Salvation. let me know if you want me to post it to you.

You said, ‘Your position is that Paul could have quit all of this and yet still be saved?’ Yes, you are completely correct in what I would say.
No, I’m not a so-called Calvinist. I knew that I apparently shared some areas with the Calvinists on salvation when someone labelled me as one.

Bless you,

APAK
 

Taken

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Ernest:

You said that a person can know he is saved if he remains faithfully obedient to the Lord.

If this was the case no one can be saved. Where in scripture does it say or comes close to suggesting that to be saved we must ‘remain faithfully obedient to the Lord.’ What is your measure or threshold or meaning of ‘remains’…is it 100 % of the time, or 50% of the time?

That is why we need God to lead us to Jesus his way and by his word in scripture; and its all there. I have written a brief summary to another of this site called the Road to Salvation. let me know if you want me to post it to you.

You said, ‘Your position is that Paul could have quit all of this and yet still be saved?’ Yes, you are completely correct in what I would say.
No, I’m not a so-called Calvinist. I knew that I apparently shared some areas with the Calvinists on salvation when someone labelled me as one.

Bless you,

APAK

IF one remains Obedient TO the Jewish Law, they shall be saved.

IF one WAS subject TO the Jewish Law, "they" Have been Redeemed from the CURSE/SIN Laws of Consequences.

IF one WAS subject TO the Jewish Law, "AND" have accepted Christ Jesus as their Savior, FOR "them" their Law was fulfilled by Jesus, and "they" have Become Converted, Saved, Born Again, and A new Creature.

IF one was not subject TO the Jewish Law, they still are not.

A Gentile was not subject TO Jewish Law. Their SIN was personally AGAINST God, of Disbelief In God, In His Messiah.

When a Gentile chooses to Learn About God, that man gains Faith.
IF that man ELECTS to submit his life TO Christ the Lord Jesus, his SIN Against God IS Forgiven Forever, and he is Converted, and FOREVER a New Creature. By the INdwelling Power of God, that man WILL FOREVER be Kept IN Faith-FULLNESS to God.

THAT man has BECOME Spiritually PERFECTED by the Lords Power, ONCE and Forever he is ACCEPTABLE for the Lord to Claim that man When He descends from Heaven TO the Clouds.

For such a man, while he remains on earth... IS there MORE he can do TO serve the Lord?

Absolutely. And the Lord directs that mans WAY for what the Lord needs for that man TO DO.

What every such man does, MAY NOT be "acceptable" to other men....or even Seen by other men....but then it is NOT other men a Converted man is directed to Please.

Men like to be CRITICS, telling other men WHAT they must do to serve the Lord....
The Lord is a Converted mans KEEPER and Director.

Receiving Salvation and other ETERNAL Gifts,
ARE NOT MAINTAINED, by "good Works".
They ARE maintained by the Power of the Lord within a man.

Good Works that Glorify the Lords Name are not forgotten by the Lord. He shall REWARD such a mans Good Works, AFTER the mans body is Glorified....which is what "storing up treasures in heaven addresses".

And SO, what about a Converted man who has some crummy works?
Is his Salvation jeopardized? NO!!
His "rewards" he could have had will be withheld.

And WHAT about, a man who is Converted, WHO CLAIMS, or others claim, his behavior is poor, he is SINNING? <--- That is a LIE.

SIN is against God, and that is resolved, forgiven, covered, remembered no more.
A Converted man CAN NOT SIN, (1 John 3:9) which is to say; A Converted man CAN NEVER AGAIN NOT BELIEVE in God.
A Converted man IS a new Creature FOREVER. Forever WITH the Lord. Forever ALIVE.

So what about a poor relationship BETWEEN men? Arguing, lie, Adultry, Cheating, etc.

IS IT A SIN? No it is a Trespass of one man against another man.

And what about the Consequences for Trespasses? A Converted man is taught to Forgive men of their trespasses against him.

Additionally IF a Converted man IS the Trespasser, he is taught to Correct His Wrong Doing between himself and the one he trespassed against.

Additionally, Scripture teaches, THOSE such things / and the consequences thereof ARE the mans OWN burden to bear.
Gal 6:5
You get in trouble with the law...you bear the consequences.
You get in trouble with a spouse, friend, co-worker, neighbor....you bear the consequences.
It has NOTHING to do with a Converted mans Conversion being in Jeopardy.

Works DO NOT Convert a man.
Works DO NOT Keep a man Converted.
Works DO NOT Jeopardize a mans Conversion.

Works are about Glorifying the Lords Name.
(Which only a Converted man Can do).
Works are about storing up Treasures in Heaven.

APAK...they MIGHT get it, but then, maybe not.

God Bless you,
Taken
 
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APAK

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IF one remains Obedient TO the Jewish Law, they shall be saved.

IF one WAS subject TO the Jewish Law, "they" Have been Redeemed from the CURSE/SIN Laws of Consequences.

IF one WAS subject TO the Jewish Law, "AND" have accepted Christ Jesus as their Savior, FOR "them" their Law was fulfilled by Jesus, and "they" have Become Converted, Saved, Born Again, and A new Creature.

IF one was not subject TO the Jewish Law, they still are not.

A Gentile was not subject TO Jewish Law. Their SIN was personally AGAINST God, of Disbelief In God, In His Messiah.

When a Gentile chooses to Learn About God, that man gains Faith.
IF that man ELECTS to submit his life TO Christ the Lord Jesus, his SIN Against God IS Forgiven Forever, and he is Converted, and FOREVER a New Creature. By the INdwelling Power of God, that man WILL FOREVER be Kept IN Faith-FULLNESS to God.

THAT man has BECOME Spiritually PERFECTED by the Lords Power, ONCE and Forever he is ACCEPTABLE for the Lord to Claim that man When He descends from Heaven TO the Clouds.

For such a man, while he remains on earth... IS there MORE he can do TO serve the Lord?

Absolutely. And the Lord directs that mans WAY for what the Lord needs for that man TO DO.

What every such man does, MAY NOT be "acceptable" to other men....or even Seen by other men....but then it is NOT other men a Converted man is directed to Please.

Men like to be CRITICS, telling other men WHAT they must do to serve the Lord....
The Lord is a Converted mans KEEPER and Director.

Receiving Salvation and other ETERNAL Gifts,
ARE NOT MAINTAINED, by "good Works".
They ARE maintained by the Power of the Lord within a man.

Good Works that Glorify the Lords Name are not forgotten by the Lord. He shall REWARD such a mans Good Works, AFTER the mans body is Glorified....which is what "storing up treasures in heaven addresses".

And SO, what about a Converted man who has some crummy works?
Is his Salvation jeopardized? NO!!
His "rewards" he could have had will be withheld.

And WHAT about, a man who is Converted, WHO CLAIMS, or others claim, his behavior is poor, he is SINNING? <--- That is a LIE.

SIN is against God, and that is resolved, forgiven, covered, remembered no more.
A Converted man CAN NOT SIN, (1 John 3:9) which is to say; A Converted man CAN NEVER AGAIN NOT BELIEVE in God.
A Converted man IS a new Creature FOREVER. Forever WITH the Lord. Forever ALIVE.

So what about a poor relationship BETWEEN men? Arguing, lie, Adultry, Cheating, etc.

IS IT A SIN? No it is a Trespass of one man against another man.

And what about the Consequences for Trespasses? A Converted man is taught to Forgive men of their trespasses against him.

Additionally IF a Converted man IS the Trespasser, he is taught to Correct His Wrong Doing between himself and the one he trespassed against.

Additionally, Scripture teaches, THOSE such things / and the consequences thereof ARE the mans OWN burden to bear.
Gal 6:5
You get in trouble with the law...you bear the consequences.
You get in trouble with a spouse, friend, co-worker, neighbor....you bear the consequences.
It has NOTHING to do with a Converted mans Conversion being in Jeopardy.

Works DO NOT Convert a man.
Works DO NOT Keep a man Converted.
Works DO NOT Jeopardize a mans Conversion.

Works are about Glorifying the Lords Name.
(Which only a Converted man Can do).
Works are about storing up Treasures in Heaven.

APAK...they MIGHT get it, but then, maybe not.

God Bless you,
Taken

Another great post..
I hope folks get it....I'm glad that you not only understand salvation, you live and know it everyday by being saved. You have strong and growing faith in the walk and in the will of God

Thanks brother

APAK
 

Taken

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And what this verbose rant amounts to is the text in RED.

No. What it amounts to is you want answers, but you don't like the answers, so you claim, it is simply a rant unworthy of your consideration.

Also you were asked questions about your own standing, that you apparently have no answers for.

I have begged you on several threads now to give me some SCRIPTURAL proof for the false teaching

There is your first error. Why would you ask for False Scriptural teaching? Weird.

that we can "never" fall away once we are born again -

You have been shown repeatedly A Conversion is FOREVER.

I can not understand the meaning of FOREVER for you. And apparently your gray matter can not comprehend its meaning.

and you have turned tail and RUN in every instance.

That is false and you know it.

You have FAILED to provide even one verse that supports this

That is false, but then you simply call everything a rant, which simply tells me you lack comprehension skills.

The ible says we CAN fall away (Matt. 5:13, Matt. 7:21, Rom. 11:22, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Peter 2:20-22, 2 Peter 3:17, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19)

So? If you could comprehend express dialogue to you, I have said on numerous replies to you, a man Can fall away....so?

The Point is a MAN "IN" Christ ...;
A Converted MAN....;
A Saved and Born again MAN;
CAN NEVER FALL AWAY!!

And your endless response to that?
Gee....but, but, but, this guy had KNOWLEDGE and BELIEVED...

Whoopie!!
ANY man can have KNOWLEDGE of the Lord..
THAT DOES NOT CONVERT the man!
ANY man can BELIEVE in the Lord...
THAT DOES NOT CONVERT the man!

The Lord DOES NOT DRAG and FORCE a man TO CALL ON THE Lord, and FORCE a man to be Converted, because the man Believes or the because the man has Knowledge.

HOW IGNORANT!

A man HAS TO DECIDE "IF" he desires TO BECOME Converted!!!

AND IF he does.....he shall call on the Lord and make his Confession to the Lord.
AND IF his Confession be heartfully TRUE, the Lord WILL Convert the man.

You Deciding men in Scripture ARE Converted because they believed and have knowledge....and the falling away....
MENTIONS NOTHING of them BECOMING CONVERTED.

You repeatedly reveal you are without understanding, and attempt to justify your lack of understanding with derogatory comments.

You do not supersede the truth, nor comprehend the truth.

The Lord is not a LIAR.
He is Transforming natural creatures INTO New Creatures. Nothing whatsoever in Scripture says A New Creature reverts to the Old Creature.

You don't even seem to comprehend Christ is Spiritually building "HIS" Church, By His power to Convert a man and Keep the man converted Forever.

And BTW, HIS Church is not called the Catholic Church, nor is it built with hands of men, storing up statues and artwork.

As for a born again believe being "unable" to sin - the BIBLE disagrees with you . . .
(Rom, 7:7-25, James 5:16, 1 John 1:8)

Paul speaking to ROMANS, about Jewish Law and Sin under the Law...and your basis for making your false assumption ...

No, the bible does not disagree.
1 John 3;9

Why not get to the nitty gritty, instead of talking about SIN under Jewish Law and pretending you know men in scripture.

What are these sins you keep talking about that a Converted save and born man commits?

You claim it, so give examples of sins YOU commit....the Consequences of such sins...and the paralleling Scripture.
 
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Taken

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Another great post..
I hope folks get it....I'm glad that you not only understand salvation, you live and know it everyday by being saved. You have strong and growing faith in the walk and in the will of God

Thanks brother

APAK

Ditto to you, and WHY without reservation, you are my brother IN Christ.

God Bless,
Taken
 
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Heb 13:8

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born again Christians are neither Christians nor born again - they are still beasts who refuse to put on Christ or divinity via the Eucharist and walk no more with Him but with other beasts imho - twinc

Jhn 3:3 Jesus replied, "Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again."

Jhn 3:7 You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.'

Jhn 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

NON-OSAS Spirit?... :rolleyes:
 
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epostle1

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Ignored.. :rolleyes:
Ephesians 1:13-14 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession-to the praise of his glory.
When, exactly does the "until the redemption of those who are God's possession" occur? Does "until the redemption" mean instantly? Since when does redemption mean salvation?
"you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit," refers to the Sacrament of Confirmation.

Acts 8:14-17 – the people of Samaria were baptized in Christ, but did not receive the fullness of the Spirit until they were confirmed by the elders. Confirmation is a sacrament that Jesus Christ instituted within His Catholic Church to further strengthen those who have reached adulthood.

Acts 19:5-6 – the people of Ephesus were baptized in Christ, but Paul laid hands on them to seal them with the Holy Spirit. This sealing refers to the sacrament of confirmation.

Eph. 1:13 – Paul writes that the baptized Ephesians were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, in reference to confirmation.

Eph. 4:30 – Paul says the Ephesians were sealed in the Holy Spirit of God, in reference to the sealing of confirmation.

Heb. 6:2 – Paul gives instruction to the Hebrews about the laying on of hands, in reference to confirmation, not ordination. The early Church laid hands upon those being confirmed to administer the sacrament of confirmation.

Eph. 1:5 There are two types of “predestination,” to grace and to glory. In this verse, Paul is teaching about predestination to grace, which means becoming a Christian.

1 Pet. 1:1-2 – Peter teaches about being destined by God for obedience to Christ. This is another example of predestination to grace. But there is also predestination to glory.

Rev. 3:5 – Jesus warns that He can blot out the names that are in the book of life. This refers to those currently, not ultimately, justified (those who are predestined to grace, but not to glory). In order for Jesus to blot out the names, they have to be in the book of life in the first place. This verse refutes OSAS.

Ezek. 18:23-24, 32 – God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. Our death is our freewill, failing to respond to His grace. God does not predetermine certain people to hell. God also does not predetermine certain “elect” people to heaven. We all, as God’s children, have been given the grace we need to be saved, but we can decide to reject God’s grace.

If your "seal" with no laying on of hands, and no oil on the forehead works for you, well, fine.

Romans 8:33-39 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died-more than that, who was raised to life-is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36As it is written: "For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered." 37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our LORD.

The family of God in heaven and the family of God on earth IS ONE FAMILY. You guys have separated God's love into departments.
 

BreadOfLife

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And his "church" are those hidden in Christ, Col 3:3. Jesus hates religion, Matt 23. God bless.
WHO told you that Jesus "hates" religion??
Matt. 23 says absolutely nothing about Him "hating" religion. A good deal of that chapter is about the hypocrisy of the Pharisees - and NOT the Jewish religion itself. It's about how they exalted themselves above others - and in some cases even GOD.

As for Colossians 3:3 - this does NOT mean that the Church is some kind of "invisible" entity.
On the contrary - Jesus boldly proclaims that His Church is the Light of the world - a city on a hill that CANNOT be hidden (Matt. 5:14).

Don't just quote or reference Scripture.
LEARN what it means, first.