Infant Baptism, Is It Scriptural?

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Truth7t7

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Infant Baptism, Is It Scriptural?

Mark 1:4-5KJV
4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.
 

Jun2u

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The answer to the OP? NO!

If you looked at the context of your own Scripture reference, Mark 1:5, infants have no abilities or capabilities to confess their sins, although God looks at them as sinners like any unsaved adults.

However, God promised to a saved parent that He will be a God to him and his household.

This promise is still true to today! There's still hope for infants because salvation is of God.

To God Be The Glory
 

Ernest T. Bass

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Mark 16:16; Romans 10:9-10; Acts 2:38; Romans 7:8-9; Romans 9:11; 1 John 3:4

From the above verses, belief, repentance and confession are prerequisites that are to be met before one is baptized. The purpose of baptism is for the remission of sins. Infants do not have the capability to believe nor do they have sins to repent of nor able to confess with the mouth nor have any sins to be remitted in baptism. Infants have done no good or evil, not capable of sinning nor are they accountable to God's law and therefore are in a innocent, neutral state.
 
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Hidden In Him

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Infant Baptism, Is It Scriptural?

Mark 1:4-5KJV
4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

No. It is a baptism unto repentance. Water baptism must be a conscious decision on the believer's part to die to the old man and become resurrected unto newness of life in Spirit. How an infant could understand let alone live out such concepts is beyond all reason.
 

Helen

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Among several others, this is one of the most staggering notions some denominations have ever come up with. Of course it is not Scriptural.

Taking the tradition of dedicating a new child to God...but then someone came up with the bright idea of jumping the gun on the child's behalf and sloshing water over it's head...calling it "baptism". :rolleyes:

Nothing biblical in it.

Both my kids were baptised in the Church of England, because it was the "thing to do"... with a big party afterward.

Three year later when we became Christians we had them dedicated to the Lord in an old Mission Hall.

A decade later they asked for water baptism in the river...another big party and praise time after.
The they were baptised in the Holy Spirit....and never looked back. :)

When the hearts of the parents are genuine in infant baptism...maybe God winks at the ignorance and blesses the child in spite of the parents ignorance of man's 'added traditions.'
 
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Jun2u

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infants do not have the capability to believe nor do they have sins to repent of[/QUOTE]

I beg to differ. I suppose you are speaking of the Age of Accountability which is taught amongst many religious circles. However, this teaching is not found anywhere in Scripture.

The Scripture references you’ve offered in your post does not really speak to the OP, but the verse below does.

Here is my answer to your words I bolded above.

Psalms 58:3-5ff

3 -The wicked are estranged the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
4 -Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear.


To God Be The Glory
 

Josiah

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Some quick observations (because it's almost LUNCH!)


1. There are NO age statements in Scripture about baptism. NOTHING that says one must first attain a certain age - or not.


2. I think there is much that can go wrong when we turn associations into prerequisites, or confuse the word "and" with the word "then." In all the baptism texts, not once does any of the 3 words that mean "then" are used. We need to be respectful to the texts. Much goes wrong when people insert sequence or chronological order into texts that just do not state it.


3. I think much depends on whether one's theology is "arrow down" or "arrow up" - is it about what we do for God (ordinances, hoops) or what God does for us (grace, mercy, blessings, gifts). And when it comes to the issue of baptism as a "Means of Grace" whether we are monergists (who believe God GIVES faith, life, justification) or a synergist (God OFFERS faith, life, justification). Since Scripture does not "answer" a lot of our questions, the fundamental views we have about theology tend to get employed.


4. I think there are verses that suggest that Baptism does something and none that suggest it is just an obedient response to the Law. See Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, 1 Corinthians 6:11, 1 Corinthians 12:13, Galatians 3:26-27, Ephesians 5:25-27, Titus 3:5, 1 Peter 3:18-22.


5. While there is no verse in the Bible that specifically states that infants were or were not baptized, I'm not sure I agree that the norm is not what Scripture says but rather the examples of stuff we see done in the Bible (in other words, what MAY or MAY NOT have been DONE is not authoritative or normative). Many will say, "Every example of baptism that happens to be recorded in the Bible is of one over the age of ____" To which my reply is, "so what?" And of course, it's not provable (see 1 Corinthians 1:16, Acts 16:15, etc., etc. where "whole households" were baptized; we have NO CLUE as to what age all were in the "household."


6. Some note the very INCLUSIVE language associated with the Sacrament (Matthew 28:19, Acts 2:38-39, Acts 16:15, etc.) and the promise that children can believe (Matthew 18:6, Mark 10:13-15, etc.). The Early Church Fathers also testify of the very early practice of infant baptism. Polycarp (69-155 AD), a disciple of St. John, states that he was baptized as an infant. Justin Martyr (100-166) states in 150 AD that Baptism replaces circumcision and should be given to infants. Irenaeus (130-200) in “Against Heresies” states that baptism is “given to infants, children, youth and the elderly.” The Council of Carthage (254 AD) which involved 99 Christian bishops, stated “We ought not hinder any person from Baptism and the grace of God, including infants and the newly born.” The idea of restricting and forbidding this to those under a certain (never disclosed) age was not a teaching until the Anabaptist movement of the 16th Century.


My perspective....


- Josiah




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Enoch111

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1. There are NO age statements in Scripture about baptism. NOTHING that says one must first attain a certain age - or not.
There do not have to be age statements in Scripture. The age *statement* is implied in the fact that only those who repent and believe may be baptized. Infants and young children cannot possibly understand the meaning of repentance.
 

Born_Again

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Very simply ask this... if an infant is baptized, but grows up as an unbeliever, was the baptism meaningless? Aside from no biblical support, you can use common sense and logic to determine infant baptism is pointless.
 
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Josiah

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There do not have to be age statements in Scripture. The age *statement* is implied

Then you agree, Holy Scriptures NOWHERE gives any age requirement. When you say "it's IMPLIED" you are simply conveying that YOU are assuming something.



Enoch111 said:
in the fact that only those who repent and believe may be baptized.

1. With all due respect, this is a pure assumption on your part. Nowhere does the Bible remotely state this. See Acts 16:15 and please prove that every member of Lydia's household was over the age of _____ (whatever age that is). See Acts 16:33 and please prove that every member of the jailer's household was over the age of _____ (whatever age that is). See 1 Corinthians 1:16 and please prove that every member of Stpehanes' household was over the age of _____ (whatever that age is).


2. As I noted above, I reject the rubric that we are to ignore the teachings of Scripture and in lieu of that consider the examples of things done and not done as authoritative and normative. Although you rely on that rubric, I suspect you too reject it (after all, you are posting on the internet and there is not one example of anyone using the internet in the Bible - thus you don't hold that we are limited to doing what was done in the Bible). Since you reject your argument here, I see no reason why others should accept it.



Enoch111]Infants and young children cannot possibly understand the meaning of repentance.


1. I can't think of a verse that says they must.... or that they can't.... or that understanding the meaning of repentance is a prerequisite to Baptism.

2. It is impossible for any to any chant the words "Jesus is Lord" (with any meaning) without the Holy Spirit so empowering. Not the 1 week old, not the 100 year old.

3. Again, you seem to be basing your argument that repentance is a prerequisite for baptism, that there is a biblically mandated chronological sequence. This is not the case. There is no verse in the Bible where the words "baptism" and "then" even appear together in the Greek, not one that states any sequential prerequisite for baptism. You may INSERT it via your own personal feelings of what is NOT said but you feel it is "IMPLIED" but it's not stated, but then it's YOUR assumption of an implication, not Scripture. And not one Christian saw that "implication" until the 16th Century so if it's there, why did no one see that until a 16th Century German Anabaptist? To answer my own question: because it's not there. There are 3 koine Greek words that mean "then" (to place things in chronological sequence) and none of them appears in any verse that even mentions Baptism.




Born_Again said:
if an infant is baptized, but grows up as an unbeliever, was the baptism meaningless?

If a child is taught the Gospel via parents, songs, Sunday School, VBS etc.... and they don't become a Christian, was the Word meaningless? Should all churches stop Sunday School and VBS and children's churches... indeed bar children from church entirely.... because they may grow up to be an unbeliever? See my point?




Thank you for reading my perspective and for the conversation!


Blessings!


- Josiah




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Ernest T. Bass

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Psa 58

v3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
v4 Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;
v5 Which will not hearken to the voice of charmers, charming never so wisely.
v6 Break their teeth, O God, in their mouth: break out the great teeth of the young lions, O LORD.

1) as pointed out by another poster (Willie T) the Psalmist is using highly figurative, poetic language for a new born cannot speak much less speak lies (v3) nor or they born with teeth (v6). Is the context speaking about humans or lions (v6)? Obviously figurative language is being used.

2) whatever literal interpretation one puts on the figurative language of Psalms 58:3-6 it cannot contradict other passages. Having new born babies being born sinners contradicts other passages as 1 John 3:4. A transgression must take place for sin to exist and a new born does not have the capability to sin, cannot speak lies, cannot murder, cannot steal, cannot commit adultery. Romans 9:11 before Jacob and Esau were born neither had done any good or evil. Neither had sinned, they were not able to sin.

3) From Romans 7:8-9 Paul shows how new born infants are not accountable to God's law. Without law sin is dead and there was a time in Paul's life when he was without law meaning sin was dead to him. When Paul was an infant he was without law, sin was dead to him until he matured intellectually learning right from wrong (Isaiah 7:15-16) THEN sin sprang up in him. He was not born with sin, sin sprang up in him later in life.

4) back to the immediate context of Psa 58, it says "they go astray". Going astray shows personal culpability in one committing his own sins and not passively inheriting another person's sins. Sin is not something that is inherited (Ezekiel 18).

5) The context of Psa 58:3 is speaking about wicked men who have become very hard hearted, their consciences are seared and there is no hope they can be persuaded to turn and repent. The Psalmist therefore is asking God to take judgment out on them. The wicked are depicted as poisonous serpents and the Psalmists is asking God to break their teeth, that is, kill them so they cannot bit others and spread their poison.

What the Psalmists is doing is telling us that the general characteristic of the wicked person's life is doing evil. They go about do evil from a early point in life, they go astray as soon as they are able. The Psalmists did NOT say they are "born astray". Compare to what Job said of his life in Job 31:18. Here Job said he helped widows from his mother's womb. Obviously Job did not literally help widows from the moment he was a new born but is describing that his life in general was characterized by helping widows. Likewise the Psalmist did not say the wicked are born astray but their life in general is characterized by doing evil and they go about committing evil, go astray as early in life as they can.

6) one other potential problem pressing figurative language into literal. Some will use Psalms 51:5 to try and prove original sin and this context also uses highly figurative language. You used Psalms 58:3. Psalms 51:5 speaks of conception and Psalms 58 speaks of birth. Conception and birth are 2 distinct points separated by about 9 months. If one is conceived a sinner, then he cannot be born a sinner 9 months later for he already is a sinner back when he was conceived. On the other hand, if one is not a sinner until he is born, then he cannot be conceived a sinner 9 month earlier. So if a very literal meaning is applied to both texts, then is one conceived a sinner or born a sinner?
 

Jun2u

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1) as pointed out by another poster (Willie T) the Psalmist is using highly figurative, poetic language for a new born cannot speak much less speak lies (v3) nor or they born with teeth (v6). Is the context speaking about humans or lions (v6)? Obviously figurative language is being used.

I beg to differ. Ps 58 is God's assessment of the human race. It is NOT a figurative language, it is a fact!

Jer 17:9 -"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

To God Be The Glory
 

Jun2u

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@Josiah, @BG

The word “baptize” or “baptism” in Scripture means “wash” or “cleanse.” What are believers cleanse from? From their sins, of course, and only God can do that.

The promise, “I will be a God to you and your house/household” is a statement God declared to a believing parent or parents. This is a fundamental principle! Whether there be infants in the household or none is irrelevant. The whole idea is now the household is under the hearing of the Gospel...”Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

For example, John the Baptist was saved three months before birth, and the thief on the cross God saved before one or two hours before death. God is Sovereign and He can save anyone He wishes in any circumstances. Infants as well.

However, water baptism has no spiritual significance. IT IS ONLY A SIGN!

To God Be The Glory
 

Ernest T. Bass

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Some quick observations (because it's almost LUNCH!)


1. There are NO age statements in Scripture about baptism. NOTHING that says one must first attain a certain age - or not.

There is no age requirement but there is a belief requirement. In order to have a belief required by the Bible to be saved requires mental maturity which comes with age.

In Mark 16:16 Jesus used a logical progression of steps where each step must be taken in logical sequence.

An example, if I said he that climbs to the top of mountain X and plants a US flag on top of mountain X shall receive $10,000.

The logical sequence shows one cannot get the $10k dollars until he first plants the flag on top of mountain X. But one cannot plant the flag on top of the mountain until he first climbs it. So there is a logical progression of steps where one step is a required prerequisite before the next step can occur.

The way this applies to Mark 16:16 is one must logically first believe before he can be baptized. Why? Because an unbeliever will not be baptized for an unbeliever does not know or care that he is lost, does not know or care that he is living in sin. Therefore one must first believe by which then he can understand his sins have him separated from God leaving him in a lost state, then he can be baptized and then saved. Belief therefore becomes a required logical prerequisite before one can be baptized.

And since logically an unbeliever cannot be baptized then when Jesus says in Mark 16:16b "he that believeth not shall be condemend" then we can logically know with certainty that the unbeliever here in 16b is unbaptized.

Hebrews 11:6 what is done must be done in faith or it is not pleasing to God.
 

Ernest T. Bass

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I beg to differ. Ps 58 is God's assessment of the human race. It is NOT a figurative language, it is a fact!

Jer 17:9 -"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

To God Be The Glory
I disagree for I do not see where the Psalmist is speaking about every human being but is talking specifically about the wicked for everyone is not as the wicked person as described in the context. If the Psalmist is speaking about the whole human race, then the Psalmists is asking God to judge/condemn the whole human race by killing them and the Psalmist would be including himself in this condemnation. Yet the Psalmist is asking God to judge the wicked, to kill the poisonous serpent so it cannot spread its venom.


As to Jeremiah 17:9 Jeremiah did not specifically state how the heart became deceitful and wicked, that is, Jeremiah did NOT say a person is born with a deceitful and wicked heart.

1 John 3:4 makes the idea of original sin impossible.
 

Josiah

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There is no age requirement but there is a belief requirement.


Respectfully, I disagree. I can find no verse that states, "all those who receive baptism must FIRST come to faith in Jesus THEN the prohibition is lifted." I not only can't find that mandate/requirement/prerequisite anywhere in Scripture, I can't find that clearly applied (again, the several "and their household" examples, Polycarp being baptized as an infant in 69 AD, etc.... indeed, no one "saw" this requirement in Scripture or anywhere until a German Anabaptist in the 16th Century.



In order to have a belief required by the Bible to be saved requires mental maturity which comes with age.

Not the issue before us, but I disagree. See Matthew 18:6, Mark 10:13-15, Luke 1:41, etc.

IMO, faith requires that God gives it. 1 Corinthians 2:14, Ephesians 2:1, Ephesians 2:8, 1 Corinthians 12:3, Romans 6:23 But again, we're off topic.



In Mark 16:16 Jesus used a logical progression of steps where each step must be taken in logical sequence.

The koine Greek word "kai" is simply the most generic, most general, most non-specific connecting word in the Greek language. It in no way mandates or even implies order - much less dogmatically mandate sequence. It just associates things. Your rubric that "and" mandates sequence creates ENORMOUS problems. "I got up this morning, kissed my wife, visited the bathroom, wandered out to the kitchen and made coffee, got dressed." It's all 100% accurate and grammatically correct but I did not do them in that order. Nor is it mandated to do them in that order and forbidden to do so otherwise. Breathing and living are certainly associated but it is wrong to insist they are dogmatically mandated to happen in that sequence and forbidden otherwise.

There are 3 words in koine Greek that to various levels suggests or even mandates order, sequence, chronology. None of them is used in any sentence in Greek where the word "baptism" also appears. Seems to ME likely that if chronology mattered, one of those 3 words (depending upon HOW MUCH mandated) would appear. They never do.


Hebrews 11:6 what is done must be done in faith or it is not pleasing to God.

No one baptizes himself.


Thank you for the conversation...


- Josiah



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