Infant vs Adult Baptism !

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twinc

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imho jnfant baptism makes more sense now than adult baptism considering the requirement and qualification is repent and/or believe - twinc
 

Enoch111

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imho jnfant baptism makes more sense now...
More sense to you or to God? Things which seem to make sense humanly speaking are not necessarily true.

So kindly take some time to see why baptism is reserved for believers who have repented and believed on the Lord Jesus Christ.
 
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Philip James

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So then, you don't think I can ask my Father, to give the gifts of faith and Spirit and light to my infant child?

Or you don't think HE will answer?

Is my child not more impotant than a fish? Or a loaf of bread?

No, my Father will not withold the light of Christ from my children...

Praise His Holy Name!
Alleluia!
 
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Philip James

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John 14: 13-14

And whatever you ask in my name, I will do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

If you ask anything of me in my name, I will do it.
 

Enoch111

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So then, you don't think I can ask my Father, to give the gifts of faith and Spirit and light to my infant child?
That's hardly the issue. Water baptism was Christ's command to those who obeyed the Gospel. And only adults can obey the Gospel, and understand the meaning of death, burial, and resurrection with Christ, as depicted in water baptism by immersion.
 

Josiah

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I posted similarly in the other thread on this topic (I hope it is okay to post similarly in thread on the same topic)...


Some quick observations ...


1. There are NO age statements in Scripture about baptism. NOTHING that says one must first attain a certain age - or not.


2. I think there is much that can go wrong when we turn associations into prerequisites, or confuse the word "and" with the word "then." In all the baptism texts, not once does any of the 3 words that mean "then" are used. We need to be respectful to the texts. Much goes wrong when people insert sequence or chronological order into texts that just do not state it.


3. I think much depends on whether one's theology is "arrow down" or "arrow up" - is it about what we do for God (ordinances, hoops) or what God does for us (grace, mercy, blessings, gifts). And when it comes to the issue of baptism as a "Means of Grace" whether we are monergists (who believe God GIVES faith, life, justification) or a synergist (God OFFERS faith, life, justification). Since Scripture does not "answer" a lot of our questions, the fundamental views we have about theology tend to get employed.


4. I think there are verses that suggest that Baptism does something and none that suggest it is just an obedient response to the Law. See Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, 1 Corinthians 6:11, 1 Corinthians 12:13, Galatians 3:26-27, Ephesians 5:25-27, Titus 3:5, 1 Peter 3:18-22.


5. While there is no verse in the Bible that specifically states that infants were or were not baptized, I'm not sure I agree that the norm is not what Scripture says but rather the examples of stuff we see done in the Bible (in other words, what MAY or MAY NOT have been DONE is not authoritative or normative). Many will say, "Every example of baptism that happens to be recorded in the Bible is of one over the age of ____" To which my reply is, "so what?" And of course, it's not provable (see 1 Corinthians 1:16, Acts 16:15, etc., etc. where "whole households" were baptized; we have NO CLUE as to what age all were in the "household" so we simply cannot know if all baptisms that happen to be recorded in the NT were of those over the age of ____ or not. We simply cannot know.


6. Some note the very INCLUSIVE language associated with the Sacrament (Matthew 28:19, Acts 2:38-39, Acts 16:15, etc.) and the promise that children can believe (Matthew 18:6, Mark 10:13-15, etc.). The Early Church Fathers also testify of the very early practice of infant baptism. Polycarp (69-155 AD), a disciple of St. John, states that he was baptized as an infant. Justin Martyr (100-166) states in 150 AD that Baptism replaces circumcision and should be given to infants. Irenaeus (130-200) in “Against Heresies” states that baptism is “given to infants, children, youth and the elderly.” The Council of Carthage (254 AD) which involved 99 Christian bishops, stated “We ought not hinder any person from Baptism and the grace of God, including infants and the newly born.” The idea of restricting and forbidding this to those under a certain (never disclosed) age was not a teaching until the Anabaptist movement of the 16th Century.


My perspective....


- Josiah




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Frank Lee

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Baptism without understanding that it is the burying of the old man is no more than another bath. Children can be saved, born again at an early age. This is with Holy Spirit guided parental instruction - and not instirutionalized/denominational rhetoric -.

Our children were Christians by age five or six at the latest then were baptized in the Holy Spirit. Some were baptized in the Holy Spirit (this is not the salvation experience!) before they were water baptized and some were water baptized before they were filled with the Holy Spirit.

Cornelius and his group were baptized in the Holy Spirit after believing and water baptized in water later. Those in Acts chapter 19 were baptized in water after believing then they received the baptism in the Holy Spirit.

First you must be born again. The other two steps are being baptized in water and being baptized with the Holy Spirit. These last two can be in any order after bring truly truly born again.

I was saved, baptized in the Holy Spirit then water baptized later as was brother Cornelius.

A child CAN be water baptized IF they have truly truly been born again. Our children were taught by their mother and I about Jesus. About the necessity of repentance and the blood sacrifice of Jesus and the cross on which He died.

Baptizing an uncomprehending infant makes them a Christian when swimming across a swimming pool turns you into Michael Phelps. An infant has not the ability to receive the gospel. Baptism of infants or any that cannot understand the message of the gospel is a creation of MEN, NOT GOD.

You DO NOT leave the instruction of your children to others! NO.

Sprinkling babies with water is of ZERO effect. It is not to be confused with biblical baptism. Whether 5 or 55 the individual MUST be born again and truly truly saved in order to understand WHY and WHAT water baptism is for.

This is basic Christianity 101.
However for many that are denominationalized;

1 Corinthians 3:1-2 KJVS
And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
[2] I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it , neither yet now are ye able.

Hebrews 5:12 KJVS
For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.


Deuteronomy 6:6-7 KJVS
And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart: [7] And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.

PS: NO one that has not been born again is to be baptized. If a month old infant is able to state categorically that they have understood the gospel and received Jesus as their Lord and savior and His commandment to be baptized then by all means baptize the little fellow. Otherwise is confused denominational nonsense.AMEN
 
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Philip James

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Baptism without understanding that it is the burying of the old man is no more than another bath.

It is Baptism that brings understanding, hence the scales falling from Paul's eyes...

Who are you to deny the Grace of God, and limit who HE pours it out on?

but Jesus said, "Let the children come to me, and do not prevent them; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."

Peace!
 
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twinc

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For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God

Alleluia! Alleluia!


it would be even greater if only the immensity of what we have here were more fully grasped and appreciated ,- lets see exactly what we have here - we have so far had only human input but what does Jesus have to say and contribute - He clearly tells us that the requirement/qualification is 'repent and believe' but then goes on to say that both are very difficult if not impossible for adults but some adults here and elsewhere would have us believe that it is easy for adults and difficult if not impossible for children - so imho Jesus realising this better than some now do made sure we were born as little [Christian]children who had nothing to repent and did once simply simply believe imho - twinc
 

Mjh29

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Infant baptism is a conscious acknowledgment that the child is, for one thing, God's to begin with, and also that God will keep his covenant promise to you (the believer) and your family. If you really think about it, there is no real way for any human to absolutely 100 percent know the real understanding of anyone, for it is God who searches the heart and tries the reigns. i was baptized before I believed, and yet a pastor told me I was saved. Men make mistakes, God doesnt. Imho we ought to give yojng life to Him as soon as possible, not wait until we as fallen men and our fallwn compainions think we are ready.
 

Josiah

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NO one that has not been born again is to be baptized.


I understand that strong opinion, but of course there is no Scripture that states that mandate. It's an assumption some began to make in the 16th Century.

Some note the very INCLUSIVE language associated with baptism (Matthew 28:19, Acts 2:38-39, Acts 16:15, etc.) and the promise that children can believe (Matthew 18:6, Mark 10:13-15, etc.). The Early Church also testifies of the very early practice of infant baptism. Polycarp (69-155 AD), a disciple of St. John, states that he was baptized as an infant. Justin Martyr (100-166) states in 150 AD that Baptism should be given to infants. Irenaeus (130-200) in “Against Heresies” states that baptism is “given to infants, children, youth and the elderly.” The Council of Carthage (254 AD) which involved 99 Christian bishops, stated “We ought not hinder any person from Baptism and the grace of God, including infants and the newly born.” The idea of restricting and forbidding this to those under a certain (never disclosed) age and/or to those who have not first orally stated an adequate confession of faith was not a teaching until the Anabaptist movement of the 16th Century.


Thank you for the conversation!


- Josiah



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Frank Lee

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Only a fool would baptize a baby and consider them saved. How many infants crawl down church aisles to answer a call to repentance and salvation?

Only a deceived, denominationalized person would baptize an unsaved baby.

The creations of men the denominations and their strong traditions are set above the word of God. Sad so sad. Dunking in water, for it is not baptism, being made equal with being born again. You may as well squirt them with a holy water pistol while making the sign of the cross.

You must be born again.
 
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Josiah

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The creations of men the denominations and their strong traditions are set above the word of God. Sad so sad.

I agree. These prohibitions, these prerequisites that the Anabaptist invented in the 16th Century are not to be found anywhere in Scripture. And not one soul jumped to these prohibitions and mandates (inserting them via their own new assumptions) until a German Anabaptist in the 16th Century. These (not stated in Scripture) prohibitions and prerequisites are the creations of men and the denominations they created.



You must be born again.

Yes. I fully agree. But the issue here is the new invention of the Anabaptists in the 16th Century, these prohibitions and prerequisties not stated anywhere in Scripture, not "seen" by even one soul for 1500 years, but invented/created by some German Anabaptists, the denominational creation/tradition of the Anabaptists. That's the issue here, at least as I read the title.


Thank you!


- Josiah
 

BreadOfLife

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Baptism only after salvation. Peace!
Really??

What
, then, do you say to Peter who wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit:
1 Pet. 3:21

"Baptism, which corresponds to this, NOW SAVES YOU, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ"

According to this verse - we are saved AT Baptism - NOT after.
 

BreadOfLife

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Baptism is at understanding.
Interesting.

Perhaps you could show us where the Scriptures make this claim.
Where does the Bible say that Baptism is NOT for infants or small children?

Acts 2:38-39
Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”
 

twinc

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Only a fool would baptize a baby and consider them saved. How many infants crawl down church aisles to answer a call to repentance and salvation?

Only a deceived, denominationalized person would baptize an unsaved baby.

The creations of men the denominations and their strong traditions are set above the word of God. Sad so sad. Dunking in water, for it is not baptism, being made equal with being born again. You may as well squirt them with a holy water pistol while making the sign of the cross.

You must be born again.


this was not said to us and does not apply - btw only a demonised person would not baptize an unsaved baby and maybe allow that baby to die unbaptized - a dead unbaptized baby by the grace and mercy of God would be born again imho - twinc