Philip James
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Do you know many baptized unbelievers? Further, how do you know whether or not Jesus will seek these lost sheep out and carry them home?
Peace!
Infant Baptism, Is It Scriptural?
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Do you know many baptized unbelievers? Further, how do you know whether or not Jesus will seek these lost sheep out and carry them home?
Peace!
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I know many personally that were baptized in the Catholic Church, that led evil lives, never were saved, and died unrepentant, 100% A fact in my opinion and observation.
Phil you have seen the same, and you can use the ole God might still put them on the Last minute salvation plan?
We know the truth of the matter Phil, baptism is after repentance as the OP scripture shows.
No need for a sinless Infant to be baptized?
However this was instituted by the Catholic Church as a token sign of "Ownership" of the child and family.
Those that opposed Catholic "Infant Baptism" historically such as the "Ana Baptist" were heavily persecuted by the Catholic Church and It's followers.
Salvation isn't found in the 7 sacraments of the Catholic Church, as many believe and are taught.
Truth7t7, Peace
Catholic Sacraments
I. Baptism
The sacrament of Baptism is the beginning of life—supernatural life. When the sacrament of Baptism is administered, the spiritual vacuum which we call original sin disappears as God becomes present in the soul, and the soul is caught up into that sharing of God’s own life which we call sanctifying grace.
II. Reconciliation (Confession)
The sacrament of Reconciliation is a sacrament in which the priest, as the agent of God, forgives sins committed after Baptism, when the sinner is heartily sorry for them, sincerely confesses them, and is willing to make satisfaction for them.
III. Eucharist (Communion)
The catechism points out that the Holy Eucharist is both a sacrifice and a sacrament. As a sacrifice the Holy Eucharist is the Mass. The Mass is that divine action in which Jesus, through the agency of the human priest, changes the bread and wine into His own Body and Blood and continues through time the offering which He made to God on Calvary—the offering of Himself for mankind. The act by which we receive the Holy Eucharist is called Holy Communion
IV. Confirmation
While Confirmation is a distinct and complete sacrament in its own right, its purpose is to perfect in us that which was begun in Baptism. We might say—in a sense—that we are baptized in order to be confirmed. The Catechism’s section on Confirmation says that Confirmation is the special outpouring of the Holy Spirit. Its effects are to:
- Root us more deeply in divine filiation (being children of God)
- Unites us more firmly to Christ
- Increases the gifts of the Holy Spirit in us
- Strengthens our bond with the Church
- Associates us more closely to her mission of bearing witness to Christ
- Helps us and more strictly obliges us to spread and defend the faith by word and deed
To ensure the right use of the procreative power God founded the institution of marriage: the lifelong and irrevocable union of one man and one woman. Up to the time of Christ, marriage, although a sacred union, was still only a civil contract between a man and a woman. Jesus, however, took this contract, this exchange of marital consent between man and woman, and made the contract a conveyor of grace. He made marriage a sacrament, the sacrament of Matrimony among Christians.
VI. Holy Orders
The sacrament of Holy Orders creates a priest. There are two notable ways in which the sacrament of Holy Orders differs from the other sacraments. One is the fact that Holy Orders can be administered only by a bishop. Only a bishop has the power to ordain priests. An ordinary priest cannot pass his power on to another. The second way in which Holy Orders differs from other sacraments is that Holy Orders is not received all at once.
VII. Anointing of the Sick (Extreme Unction)
The Anointing of the Sick is a remarkable sign of God’s great love for us. In his merciful efforts to bring us safely to himself in heaven, God seems to have gone to the very limit. The Catechism of the Catholic Church’s section on the Anointing of the Sick defines the purpose of the sacrament as “the conferral of a special grace on the Christian experiencing the difficulties inherent in the condition of grave illness or old age.” (Catechism, 1527)
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Jun2u
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Without the grace of God, the human race will have rot in hell!
So are you saying you’re different from the rest of mankind that God somehow saw some good in you?
The Book of Psalms is an integral part of the Bible because the Bible is one cohesive whole. So is the Book of Romans is an integral part of the Scriptures.
Romans 3:10 reads:
“As it is written, there is none righteous no, not one.”
You are correct Jeremiah did NOT say a person is born with a deceitful and wicked heart. God did through Paul, who was under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, in Romans 3:10, “as holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit” (2 Peter 1:21).
You must not have read 1 Corinthians 15:22“ where Paul declares “as in Adam all die!”
It is obvious you and I cannot come into any kind of agreement because you follow a different gospel from that of the Bible whereas, I follow the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.
To God Be The Glory
Not sure.... I suspect I know many unbelievers who were taught the Gospel - by their parents, in Sunday School, in church, in VBS.... the reality that it seems at this moment they do not believe, does that mean that ergo it was evil and sinful for them to be taught, that we are forbidden to teach unbelievers and children unless they eventually become believers? That it is sin to teach unbelievers just because it seems some of them don't believe as a result (or at least they don't just now)?
Sorry, but respectfully, I don't see the connection between people not believing and THEREFORE we being forbidden to baptize or teach them....
FHII
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I have seen definitions that also say "to immerse" or "to be immersed" immediately people think of water. But you can be immersed in other things. You can be immersed in your studies, for example. So the Bible speaks on occasion of being baptized into Christ (Acts 2 and Romans 6, for example).
My point is that every time you read the Bible, hear a sermon or meditate on Christ it is an immersing or baptism.
Great point!
Absolutely true. With water baptism that is... With that I don't believe its wrong. I can see it as an act of faith though.
There was once a God fearing woman who couldn't bear children. Her husband still loved her greatly, but it tore her apart that she was unable to give her husband a son.
She was so upset that she would pray... Yet she would mouth the words but not be able to speak the words her lips were forming.
The priest saw her and thought she was drunk. But she expkained herself. The priest said that God hears her petitions and to go home... Its all going to be ok. And she went home... No longer sad cause the Man of God spoke the words!
Soon... She did have a son. She was so thankful that that ooncethe child was was weened she gave the son to the priest as a dedication to God. Actually, lent him to God permanently. She also brought burgers and wine.
(Ok... Flour, a bullock and wine... Its just fun to say burgers and wine).
The important part is that while it wasn't an infant, it was given back to God. "Lent" forever... Yet the child had no say and unless it was like John the Baptist who leaped for joy in his mother's womb... He probably had no idea he was given to God.
The priest was Eli... Not even a great priest. The woman was Hanna and the child was Samuel.
Given that Samuel didn't know the Lord yet, I don't look at infant baptism as being so bad. Samuel still had to say, "Your sevant heareth thee" before it took root. But it was a good start.
Philip James
Well-Known Member
How sad. Do you also know many practicing Catholics? and as for the last minute... one must always leave room for God's mercy and hope for ones brothers and sisters.... 'Love hopes all things..'
Do you believe we are all born spiritually dead in Adam?
Does an infant have anything to repent of?
If not why can they not be given Life in the Spirit?
Do you think God would not answer your prayer for this for your children?
Can they not die with Christ in baptism and rise to new life in Him as per Paul quoted above?
If not why not? Is it by Grace we are saved? If it is surely God can give it to a babe as easily as He gives it to us...
hogwash
indeed, and so?
Salvation is found in Christ, and THAT'S what the Church teaches. I would be happy to discuss the sacraments with you if you wish but lets stick to baptism here so as not to derail the thread...
Peace!
Philip James
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Truth7t7 Post:
Those that opposed Catholic "Infant Baptism" historically such as the "Ana Baptist" were heavily persecuted by the Catholic Church and It's followers.
Philip James Response:
Indeed and so?
The true spirit of the Roman Catholic Church, A true prodigy!
Philip James
Well-Known Member
Wow... I agree with you and ask you what bearing that has on the discussion, and this is your response?
Just what spirit are you implying ?
Peace!
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It is up to someone's parents to deturmine if they are a child of God instead of God himself?
BreadOfLife
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I know many Protestants who were baptized as teenagers and adults who lead horribly sinful lives of sexual promiscuity and substance abuse. Were THEIR baptisms "genuine"??
BreadOfLife
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It was up to the parents of the 8-day-old boy under the Law to determine that they would be included in the Covenant with God by circumcision.
Why would it be ANY different with Baptism??
The Early Church Fathers not only practiced Infant Baptism - they taught it UNANIMOUSLY and said it had been handed down by the Apostles themselves . . .
Irenaeus
He [Jesus] came to save all through himself – all, I say, who through him are reborn in God; infants, and children, and youths, and old men. Therefore he passed through every age, becoming an infant for infants, sanctifying infants; a child for children, sanctifying those who are of that age . . . [so that] he might be the perfect teacher in all things, perfect not only in respect to the setting forth of truth, perfect also in respect to relative age (Against Heresies 2:22:4 [A.D. 189]).
Hippolytus
Where there is no scarcity of water the stream shall flow through the baptismal font or pour into it from above; but if water is scarce, whether on a constant condition or on occasion, then use whatever water is available. Let them remove their clothing. Baptize first the children, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them (The Apostolic Tradition 21:16 [A.D.215]).
Origen
The Church received FROM THE APOSTLES the tradition of giving baptism even to INFANTS. The apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of divine sacraments, knew there is in everyone innate strains of [original] sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit (Commentaries on Romans 5:9 [A.D. 248]).
Cyprian
As to what pertains to the case of INFANTS: You [Fidus] said that they ought not to be baptized within the second or third day after their birth, that the old law of circumcision must be taken into consideration, and that you did not think that one should be baptized and sanctified within the eighth day after his birth. In our council it seemed to us far otherwise. No one agreed to the course which you thought should be taken. Rather, we all judge that the mercy and grace of God ought to be denied to no man born" (Letters 64:2 [A.D. 253]).
Augustine
It is this one Spirit who makes it possible for an INFANT to be regenerated . . . when that INFANT is brought to baptism; and it is through this one Spirit that the INFANT so presented is reborn. (Letters 98:2 [A.D. 408]).
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I know MANY who sent to Sunday School who lead horrible lives and denounce Christ. Does that mean it should be forbidden to teach children about Jesus?
I reject the whole premise that if something doesn't guarantee that they be a righteous Christian as a direct result, therefore it should be forbidden. Noting the obvious - that not everyone who is baptized or who attends church or Sunday not always turn out to be perfect Christians - is a baseless argument that THEREFORE those things are forbidden to be done.
Thank you for the conversation.
- Josiah
.
I reject the whole premise that if something doesn't guarantee that they be a righteous Christian as a direct result, therefore it should be forbidden. Noting the obvious - that not everyone who is baptized or who attends church or Sunday not always turn out to be perfect Christians - is a baseless argument that THEREFORE those things are forbidden to be done.
Thank you for the conversation.
- Josiah
.
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Philip James
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God of course. But why would God not answer the prayer of the parent (and HIS church!) Is not the life of the child more important than a loaf of bread or a fish?
I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. Choose life, then, that you and your descendants may live
Cast out your doubt , and believe!
We have an awesome Father, who loves us and our children !
Peace!
FHII
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I would like to offer up this verse and thoughts about it. I will try not to ramble on like last time.tim:
Job 1:5 KJV
And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually.
Job had 10 children at this point. They weren't infants or even young children. The were old enough to party. The verse before this one shows that. But Job offered sacrifices on their behalf in case they offended God. And he did often.
We don't know if God accepted this offering by Job for his children, but we do know God thought highly of Job. He even called Job a perfect and upright man.
No... It isn't an infant baptism... And again I am not big on literal baptism altogether (but not against it either), but it does show a parent can act on behalf of his children...
Job 1:5 KJV
And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually.
Job had 10 children at this point. They weren't infants or even young children. The were old enough to party. The verse before this one shows that. But Job offered sacrifices on their behalf in case they offended God. And he did often.
We don't know if God accepted this offering by Job for his children, but we do know God thought highly of Job. He even called Job a perfect and upright man.
No... It isn't an infant baptism... And again I am not big on literal baptism altogether (but not against it either), but it does show a parent can act on behalf of his children...
Yes, but we need to keep the context in mind. There was no Mosaic Law at that point, but the patriarchs were fully aware that without the shedding of blood there would be no atonement for sins, or remission of sins.
Job recognized that his children would sin, therefore as the "priest" of his household, he offered sacrifices for their sins. So in that regard he was not so much acting on their behalf as fulfilling his moral and spiritual responsibility for his household as head of his household.
When it comes to infants and young children, the blood of Christ is already efficacious for them ('for of such is the kingdom of Heaven'), until they reach the point when they must obey the Gospel . Therefore there is no need for parental proxies. But every adult (and children were deemed to be adults by age 12 among the Jews) must respond to the Gospel and exercise faith in Christ.
Also, consider the last of the "Ten Plagues of Egypt" where the faith and obedience OF THE PARENTS literally saved the lives of their first born. True - not baptism, but it is yet another example of the faith of parents effecting their children....
Thank you!
- Josiah
.
FHII
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FHII
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Ok fine... I suppose I can agree. I don't agree with the age of 12. I am also questioning (not disagreeing) whether infants are covered.
My only point was that it is possible to cover your children.
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