Respectfully, I disagree. I can find no verse that states, "all those who receive baptism must FIRST come to faith in Jesus THEN the prohibition is lifted." I not only can't find that mandate/requirement/prerequisite anywhere in Scripture, I can't find that clearly applied (again, the several "and their household" examples, Polycarp being baptized as an infant in 69 AD, etc.... indeed, no one "saw" this requirement in Scripture or anywhere until a German Anabaptist in the 16th Century.
You posted "
I can find no verse that states, "all those who receive baptism must FIRST come to faith in Jesus..."
Mark 16:16 puts believing before baptism. What Polycarp did does not matter at all, all that matters is what the Bible says for the repository of God's truth is His word, not Polycarp.
Josiah said:
Not the issue before us, but I disagree. See Matthew 18:6, Mark 10:13-15, Luke 1:41, etc.
IMO, faith requires that God gives it. 1 Corinthians 2:14, Ephesians 2:1, Ephesians 2:8, 1 Corinthians 12:3, Romans 6:23 But again, we're off topic.
Yes it is the issue for one who does not, cannot believe are not candidates for baptism.
Infants cannot believe nor so they have any sins to repent of or have remitted in baptism. Original sin and infant baptism are two errors that came from the so called "Church Fathers" and not from the word of God.
The idea that a person can only have faith if God gives it to him contradicts Romans 10:14-17 where faith comes by hearing the word of God. Therefore for one to have faith he must hear / understand the word of God which infants are not capable of doing.
Josiah said:
The koine Greek word "kai" is simply the most generic, most general, most non-specific connecting word in the Greek language. It in no way mandates or even implies order - much less dogmatically mandate sequence. It just associates things. Your rubric that "and" mandates sequence creates ENORMOUS problems. "I got up this morning, kissed my wife, visited the bathroom, wandered out to the kitchen and made coffee, got dressed." It's all 100% accurate and grammatically correct but I did not do them in that order. Nor is it mandated to do them in that order and forbidden to do so otherwise. Breathing and living are certainly associated but it is wrong to insist they are dogmatically mandated to happen in that sequence and forbidden otherwise.
There are 3 words in koine Greek that to various levels suggests or even mandates order, sequence, chronology. None of them is used in any sentence in Greek where the word "baptism" also appears. Seems to ME likely that if chronology mattered, one of those 3 words (depending upon HOW MUCH mandated) would appear. They never do.
Mark 16:16 "
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;..."
(1) the order of the verse clearly has belief
BEFORE baptism and baptism
BEFORE saved. Changing this order is nothing more than an attempt to pervert God's word in an what will be a failed effort to change God's word to fit a man made idea.
John 5:24 "
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and (kai) believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."
The order of this verse has hearing
BEFORE believing and believing
BEFORE having everlasting life.
a) if you do not think order matters, then explain how one can believe and then hear, that is, how one can believe what he has never heard cf Romans 10:14-16?
b) infants are not capable of hearing nor believing per John 5:24 much less be baptized per Mark 16:16.
(2) all kai does is tie belief to baptism making them inseparable therefore making both belief and baptism necessary
before one can be saved.
(3) Mark 16:16 and the example I gave about climbing a mountain, planting a flag then receiving $10K both have a logical progression of steps where there are necessary prerequisites that must be met before the next step can be made. Your example above lacks a logical progression of steps with necessary prerequisites therefore you are making an apple to oranges comparison.
Josiah said:
No one baptizes himself.
Thank you for the conversation...
- Josiah
.
Hebrews 11:6 an infant being baptized that does have not faith is not pleasing to God. What a person does must be done in faith and infants cannot hear nor have faith/believe.
---In Christ's great commission, (Matthew 28:19-20) the ones taught are the ones to be baptized and the ones baptized are to "observe all things" commanded by Christ. Nothing here about infants for they cannot be taught, cannot hear/understand, cannot observe all things commanded by Christ. Baptism is how disciples are made and disciples are learners and followers of another, which eliminates infants for they have no such ability to learn and follow. New disciples are to teach other to observe all things Christ commanded...infants cannot do this either. Since baptism is to be done "in the name of" which means 'by the authority of' and the great commission gives
NO authority whatsoever to baptize infants.
---Acts 2 those who heard/understood asked what they must do, infants cannot do this. Peter commanded them to repent AND be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. The "and" ties repentance to baptism making BOTH necessary before one can have sins remitted. Again, Infants cannot repent so right here makes them not accountable to Peter's command. Infants have no sins to have remitted so they are not candidates for baptism. Therefore infant baptism is contrary to what is to be done "in the name of Jesus Christ", by the authority of Christ.
---Romans 7:8-9 Paul says for without the law sin
was dead. Without law sin is dead, it has no power. But then Paul said he was once alive "
without the law" meaning there was a time in his life (as an infant) he was dead to sin, sin had no power over him. Therefore as an infant he was not accountable, ameanble to God's laws/commands meaning he is was
NOT accountable,
NOT required to follow to the commands to believe, repent or be baptized.
---Hebrews 5:9 salvation is a matter of
individual obedience to the Lord's commands. No parent can obey for their infant. Infant are not capable of individual obedience. Nor does the Bible allow for proxy baptisms, Acts 2:38.
Obviously, infant baptism is going above, beyond that which is written 1 Corinthians 4:6.
