Rebirth - Salvation and Conversion

Taken said:

Lack of understanding and arrogance reveals ones foolishness.

The body of a CONVERTED man IS Dead, and IS HIDDEN with Christ in God.

Col 3:3

Click to expand...

That's NOT what this verse is saying - in context.
But, then again, context is NOT your friend.

We are dead TO the flesh. We are not dead IN the flesh.
If this were the case - we wouldn't be typing away on our computers.

Our bodies are very much alive and will remain that way until we DIE.

Taken said:

John 14:6
Jesus answered;
I am the WAY, the TRUTH, the LIFE.
No one comes to the Father EXCEPT through me.

You can freely to believe Jesus' Word, or not.

Click to expand...

I have shown you in GREAT detail that a few of these verses states that those who are BORN AGAIN (have Epignosis of Christ) can LOSE their security with God. CAN you refute this?? Because so far, you have failed miserably . . .[/QUOTE]

No, I have not failed.

You do not comprehend;
Knowledge is a beginning that LEADS to a mans Conversion.
Security is the Word of God.
Everything that LEADS to a mans Conversion hinges on the Word of God.

Knowledge IS NOT the ACT that Converts a man.

The Word of God IS NOT an ACT that Converts a man.

A Heartfelt-felt Believing man Submitting and Giving his Life TO the Lord, Results in the ACT of the Lord Converting the man.

You have been TOLD and SHOWN umpteen times....EXACTLY what the ACT is that the Lord DOES....WHEN HE "Converts" a man..

The Lords ACT is not some kind of little wishy, washy, kind of, sort of, ACT.....as YOU purport;

As you claim, you were born again, WITHOUT it being Your choice, Your election, Your Calling on the Lord, Your repentance, and Your claims it does not INCLUDE Salvation of your SOUL, that you claim you can not receive Salvation ...... until the ending of your natural life....until you have ENDURED (something, you never say).....until you have COOPERATED (doing what, you never say)....
And while you continue the act of SIN, as you say you do.

Which is a load of hogwash, BY YOUR teaching, FOR a man WHO IS CONVERTED, YOU dictate and teach, THAT SUCH A MAN, "remains" under his OWN POWER, TO WAIT and SEE, "IF" his life/soul was ACCEPTABLE FOR THE Lord TO SAVE.

Different from YOU....
Knowledge DID NOT SAVE Me.

An ACT of my Lord, My Redeemer, My Christ Lord Jesus, My God, SAVED me, MADE me WHOLE, and wholly Acceptable TO Him.
BECAUSE I CHOSE Him.
BECAUSE I ELECTED Him ONLY, to Give MY LIFE TO HIM.

I don't WAIT TO SEE, IF my Lord was Kidding, or has some secret Caveat. I TRUST TO BELIEVE MY Lord God Almighty IS Faithful, and He has ACCOUNTED me Justified for Him to Come on a Day of His Chooseing and TAKE ME IN A GLORIFIED BODY, UNTO Him FOREVER, as a Bodily Member of HIS Church and a Citizen OF His Kingdom.

YOU? You can keep preaching about your kind of, sort of, Acts your lord, or your "holy father" or whomever you rely on to teach you..... I'll stick with the TRUTH...And TRUST in Christ the Lord Jesus.[/QUOTE]
And there you go running again from EPIGNOSIS.
How many times must you be shown that Epignposis does NOT mean "knowledge". There are other Greek words for that (Gnosis, Oida).

I have shown you DOZENS of times now that Epignosis of Christ means a FULL, PERSONAL and EXPERIENTIAL knowledge that only a born again person can have. ONLY a born again person has Epignosis of Christ - and ONLY a person with Epignosis of Christ is born again.

Once you can abandon your spiritual pride and understand this - the scales MAY fall from your eyes . . .

kepha31 said:

No, I deny your abuse of them. I don't accept everything in John Gill's commentary because he is a biased Baptist hyper-Calvinist with a freeze dried theology written over 300 years ago, although I have used it myself on rare occasion.

These verses refute OSAS. They ALL say they are saved, and they ALL say they fall away. You have been arguing that a believer cannot fall away. Again, you refute yourself.

Click to expand...

Hi kepha. If those scriptures refute OSAS, then Matt 13:21 and Mark 4:17 is in contradiction with Rom 8:35 (trouble and persecution). Read again, they never had the root of salvation. God bless.

BreadOfLife said:

Once you can abandon your spiritual pride and understand this - the scales MAY fall from your eyes . . .

Click to expand...

Are you filled with the Holy Spirit BOL? Lord help us.

Acts 9:17-18 Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord—Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here—has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul’s eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized,

Heb 13:8 said:

"It's more of a spirit of pride. Human pride opposes salvation being a free gift. Human pride wants to deserve salvation. You would think that knowing that you can be saved without having to live up to God's standard of perfection would bring relief and hope and it does, but for some, they prefer to slog it out, trying to be good enough to deserve Heaven. Human pride wants to appeal to its own merit, and hard work as if salvation is something to win or to earn.

To human pride, there is something somewhat romantic about the spiritual quest, of seasons of fasting and self-abasement and ascetism and enlightenment, something about a journey in search of truth. That is more far more desirable to those ruled by their pride than the truth that we are nothing but worms, and miserable wretches who deserve nothing but God's contempt. Human pride doesn't take into account how offensive and repugnant our sin is to God. We have lost sight of that. We don't realize what we look like to God.

So human pride wants to, at best, make salvation a synthesis of God's grace and human effort. Human effort is either placed at the front or at the end. We either must work to get saved or we have to work to stay saved. Either way, at some point, salvation still depends on us from a pride standpoint. To those ruled by pride, salvation can never actually be "free." That is the spirit behind the anti-OSAS mentality."

- shiloh357 www(dot)worthychristianforums(dot)com

Click to expand...

Taken said:

No.



You are without understanding.



2 Cor 5:17
Matt 13:3
John `12:40
Jas 5:28
John 6:51
Palm 1:15
Heb 10:14
2 John 1:2
1 John 2:13
1 John 2:14
1 John 5:4
Rev 2:7

Click to expand...

2 Cor 5:17 "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
This verse says nothing about it being impossible for a Christian to quit believing.

Matthew 3:13 "And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;"
Nothing here either.

John 12:40 "He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them"
Nothing here either.

James 5:28 there is no James 5:28

John 6:51 "I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."
Nothing here either.

None of the other verses say anything about it being impossible for a Christian to quit believing. Your whole argument rests on the idea it is impossible for the Christian to quit believing but there is no Biblical basis for it.

Taken said:

False. Hebrews is speaking of an evil heart.
Apparently you are without understanding that an evil heart is not a NEW heart the man receives when he is Converted.

Where are "your" scriptures that say:

A man can be Converted,
....then "UN-Converted'?

A mans spirit can be Born Again,
....then "UN-Born again"?

A man can be IN Christ,
....then NOT "IN" Christ?

A mans soul can be Saved,
....then "Un-Saved"?

A man can receive a new Heart,
....then get his "old heart back"?

A man can become A NEW Creature,
....then revive and become the OLD dead creature?

When Jesus says For ever His Spirit will dwell in a man,
....He didn't mean For ever?

Hummm?

Click to expand...

Hebrews 3:12 "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God."

This verse is spoken to Christians commanding them to continue to "take heed" (present tense; imperative mood) of going into unbelief, in departing from the living God.

--the verse proves the Christian can go into unbelief.
--if it were impossible for the Christian to quit believing then there would be no need at all for a command for them to continue to heed themselves from unbelief. The command is given to the Christian thereby putting accountability upon the Christian to not fall into unbelief. NO verse says God of the Holy Spirit supernaturally keep the Christian from unbelief.
--the Christians that fall into unbelief depart from God by doing do. Logically one must be with God before he can depart from God. So we have further proof verse 12 is addressed to Christians, those who are with God and are given a warning about being separated from God.

You asked about "A man can be Converted, ....then "UN-Converted?'"

James 5:19-20 says "Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins."

This speaks of Christian who erred and has now become a "sinner" who is in the way of "error" and is facing spiritual "death" and must be converted back to the way of truth.

You ask "A man can be IN Christ,....then NOT "IN" Christ?" See Hebrews 3:12 and James 5:19-20

You ask "A man can receive a new Heart,....then get his "old heart back"?"

Again, adderssing Christians the Hebrew writer says "But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin" Hebrews 3:13. The Christian can go back to having a hard, rebellious heart.

The rest of the context Hebrews 3:16-19 speaks of God's chosen in the OT, the Israelites. They had been believers in God but upon being lead into the wilderness that came into unbelief. This also disproves the idea some have that if one quits believing that he never did really believe.

You ask "A man can become A NEW Creature,....then revive and become the OLD dead creature?"

2 Cor 5:17 "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
"IF" is a conditional word therefore a new creature are those who are CONDITIONALLY in Christ and remain in Christ. Again, there is no verse that says it is impossible for the Christian to fall into unbelief, impossible to fall from grace, impossible to fall from Christ.

You ask "When Jesus says For ever His Spirit will dwell in a man,....He didn't mean For ever?"

Ephesians 4:30 anyone that does not live by the standard of the Holy Spirit's word, the Bible, does not have the Spirit.
1 Corinthians 6:18-20 Paul is addressing the church at Corinth, the body of Christ where the Spirit is and they are not to sin, commit fornication. Because the Spirit was in the body, church at Corinth that did not give them the right to sin for the wage of sin is death. If the Christian can impenitently sin and still be saved, then the blood of Christ, being "bought" redeemed by the blood of Christ serves no purpose.

Taken said:

Yes.



Already covered that, and you just agreed.
It is a mans process to learn about God.....
BEFORE, he is prepared to MAKE a Commitment to God.



You have Not said HOW this "REMAINING" IS accomplished.

But I did on several occasions....
It is BY THE POWER of the Lord within the man.

So what is your claim?
Have you BEEN Converted?
And if so, Did you RECEIVE Salvation as part of your Conversion?

And are you teaching YOU have to KEEP your Salvation, BY YOUR POWER, or you will BECOME "UN-saved"? Un-converted?



Don't know about you....
But for me, ON THE DAY I was Converted, I was Saved unto the Lord Forever. I was born again, with Gods Seed. I am Forever Kept UNTO the Lord, By His Power.

No, it was not a process for the Lord to ACCOMPLISH those things IN ME. It was QUICK, INSTANT, on that one day, and Was a Day of Joy and Gladness for me.

Abraham had his DAY of Conversion also, and Received the Seed of God. And on his DAY, of receiving Christ, he was blessed and he was glad.
John 8:56
Gen 14: 18-19
Gal 3:16

You revealing the knowledge Abraham was accounted Righteous by God, IS your notice he was Converted.

Further you should have learned, men are called to BE saints.
1 Cor 1:2

A man who is Converted, is accounted as a saint.

A Conversion INCLUDES accounting the man Righteous, Because his UNRighteousness is forgiven and covered and remembered no more.
Heb 8:12
1 JOHN 1:9

Click to expand...

I see nowhere in this post a verse that shows Abraham being reckoned righteous/justified occurred in an instance in time when he supposedly had "faith only'. It was a process. Had Abraham disobeyed at the beginning when he was told to leave his house land and kindred (Gen 12) would he have been justified anyway? No. Had he disobeyed and not offered Isaac (Gen 22) would he ahve been justified anyway? No. It was a process from Gen 12 to Gen 22.

Taken said:

Point blank.
The LIFE of ALL Bodies IS THEIR BLOOD.
God REQUIRES the LIFE (BLOOD) of ALL BODIES.
ALL BODIES SHALL DIE, which is ALL BODIES SHALL pay their own price FOR their OWN sin, with their OWN Corrupt BLOOD.

Jesus' PURE BLOOD, Paid the price, FOR ALL men TO RECEIVE Forgiveness FOR their Corrupt Blood and Disbelief IN God.

Men WHO trust to heartfully believe IN Him, receive His forgiveness....and His Gift of becoming a new Creature WiTH Everlasting Life.

Click to expand...

'Death' in Romans 6:23 refers to spiritual death. The contrast being made in the verse is between spiritual death, being lost, condemned contrasted from being saved, having eternal life.

Heb 13:8 said:

Hi kepha. If those scriptures refute OSAS, then Matt 13:21 and Mark 4:17 is in contradiction with Rom 8:35 (trouble and persecution). Read again, they never had the root of salvation. God bless.

Click to expand...

ONLY to people like YOU, who cherry-pick Scripture instead of taking it ALL in context.

God loves EVERYBODY (John 3:16). He wills the salvation of ALL people (1 Tim. 3:4) but that doesn't mean that ALL will be saved - if they refuse to cooperate with His grace. NOTHING can separate us from God's love - except for US.

OSAS is a false man-made doctrine based on perversion of Scripture due to cherry-picking it.

BreadOfLife said:

ONLY to people like YOU, who cherry-pick Scripture instead of taking it ALL in context.

Click to expand...

Trouble and persecution is in the Greek text BOL, and Rom 8:35 is a OSAS scripture.

BreadOfLife said:

God loves EVERYBODY (John 3:16). He wills the salvation of ALL people (1 Tim. 3:4) but that doesn't mean that ALL will be saved - if they refuse to cooperate with His grace. NOTHING can separate us from God's love - except for US.

Click to expand...

No, if they refuse to believe and confess, and I already agreed with you that universal-ism is false.