Seemingly Anti-OSAS Scriptures

Josiah said:

I'm Lutheran. I was raised Catholic.





I affirm that Justification (narrow) is Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. The Sola Gratia and Solus Christus aspects are universal and ALWAYS the case, the Sola Fide aspect is not. But where it is present, there IS Justification. So, to ME, it's very simple. Where there is faith IN CHRIST (the object being the point, not the quality or quantity of the faith) - there is Justification. Even when such faith is combined with doubts ("Lord I believe, help Thou my unbelief").

Blessings! And thanks for the conversation...


- Josiah



.

Click to expand...

Copy that, one of my closest friends is a Lutheran pastor in Texas....APAK out

Again, the importance of understanding being born again (literal, bonified, certified, offspring of God) by a birthing process as was your natural birth, this spiritual birth by Christ in you. It does cut through the chatter of religion and not knowing. Paul simply calls it a revelation of the indwelling Christ as your only life, Gal. 1:11-12, 15-16, and Gal. 2:20.

APAK said:

Last commentary, at this point, rebutting Kepha31's verse that do not support anti-OSAS

(Rev 22:18) I testify to every man that hears the words of the prophecy of this book, that if anyone shall add to them, God shall add to him the plagues which are written in this book.
(Rev 22:19) And if anyone shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the tree of life and out of the holy city, which are written of in this book.(All NEV)

(Deu 4:2) You must not add to the word which I command you, neither must you take away from it, so that you may keep the commandments of Yahweh your God which I command you. (NEV)

As Deuteronomy 4:2 says, the ones that keep the commands of God (and faith in Jesus) are true believers. They do not add or delete to existing words of God.

Rev 22-18-19 is speaking of those that add to the words of God not just in this Book, in the entire Bible. These added or deleted words are not the mere words in verses that can produce modifications in meanings of the existing portions of scripture. Everyone can be guilty, with good intentions of neglecting a word or adding a word that was not there before, to mean something differently or more precisely in interpretation for improvement purposes. Many translators have committed this crime. This is not what it means.

It is speaking of much more: adding new doctrine, teachings, books, other literature created by men that add or delete to the Bible in a major way. They produce a false meaning or message of God’s word.

The corrupt Pharisees committed this infraction. And several denominational congregations have mimicked them and added much literature to supersede or improve, as they think, scripture. These are the ones that are the unbelieves and will suffer in the 2nd death. These potentially could have had their share of the tree of life. Really though it was impossible, because these modifiers and manipulators of scripture were all unbelievers. Now its not speaking to those that somehow accepted the modifiers words as scripture or beyond it, later on – the lay-folks. It is upon the leaders and creators’ heads that these verses apply.

Bless all,

APAK

Click to expand...

You rebut verses not on my list in post #8. You say you rebutted my post but just a handful. I used over 20 verses followed by a brief exegesis. They were written by John Salsa, who has a Ph.D. He has a few public debates on line. Unlike most people in here, I give my sources. What assurances can you give me that your "exegesis" or interpretations are qualified? From what I see, your interpretation is based on emotion and opinion. You may get it right most of the time, but there is no consistency previous to the 16th century. I could post plenty of scholarly articles refuting OSAS, but few people read walls of text. If OSAS works for you, good. But don't delude yourself into thinking the doctrine of OSAS is impenetrable, or that it was taught by the Apostles.

• 1 Scripture
  • 1.1 I. Good Works in Sanctifying Grace are Necessary for Salvation
  • 1.2 II. We are not Guaranteed Salvation; We Hope For Salvation
  • 1.3 III. Predestination and the “Elect”
  • 1.4 IV. Jesus’ Teaching on Losing Salvation
  • 1.5 V. Other Apostolic Teaching on Losing Salvation by our Own Choice
  • 1.6 VI. I Have Been Saved (past event)
  • 1.7 VII. I Am Being Saved (present event)
  • 1.8 VIII. I Will Be Saved (future event)
  • 1.9 IX. I Save (by participating in Christ’s salvific work)
• 2 Tradition / Church Fathers
  • 2.1 I. We are Saved by Faith and Works, and Not Faith Alone
  • 2.2 II. We are not “Once Saved, Always Saved”

Unfortunately, you are divorced from the Church of 98 AD.

Can You Lose Your Salvation? | The Catholic Perspective on Paul
The Heresy of OSAS - Apostolic Apologetics

kepha31 said:

You rebut verses not on my list in post #8. You say you rebutted my post but just a handful. I used over 20 verses followed by a brief exegesis. They were written by John Salsa, who has a Ph.D. He has a few public debates on line. Unlike most people in here, I give my sources. What assurances can you give me that your "exegesis" or interpretations are qualified? From what I see, your interpretation is based on emotion and opinion. You may get it right most of the time, but there is no consistency previous to the 16th century. I could post plenty of scholarly articles refuting OSAS, but few people read walls of text. If OSAS works for you, good. But don't delude yourself into thinking the doctrine of OSAS is impenetrable, or that it was taught by the Apostles.

• 1 Scripture
  • 1.1 I. Good Works in Sanctifying Grace are Necessary for Salvation
  • 1.2 II. We are not Guaranteed Salvation; We Hope For Salvation
  • 1.3 III. Predestination and the “Elect”
  • 1.4 IV. Jesus’ Teaching on Losing Salvation
  • 1.5 V. Other Apostolic Teaching on Losing Salvation by our Own Choice
  • 1.6 VI. I Have Been Saved (past event)
  • 1.7 VII. I Am Being Saved (present event)
  • 1.8 VIII. I Will Be Saved (future event)
  • 1.9 IX. I Save (by participating in Christ’s salvific work)
• 2 Tradition / Church Fathers
  • 2.1 I. We are Saved by Faith and Works, and Not Faith Alone
  • 2.2 II. We are not “Once Saved, Always Saved”

Unfortunately, you are divorced from the Church of 98 AD.

Can You Lose Your Salvation? | The Catholic Perspective on Paul
The Heresy of OSAS - Apostolic Apologetics

Click to expand...

Well Kepha31 I beg to differ with you: I covered all your verses/passages and rebutted them all, and regardless of the PhD fellow (John Salza) you sourced them from, I have 2.9 college degrees under my belt myself and over 35 years of Bible study.

Let me go through them for you...yes, I'm doing al the work again as usual.
Here's your list from Post #8 again..and I will add where I Posted my reply..

Post #9-Matt. 7:18 – Jesus says that sound trees bear good fruit. But there is no guarantee that a sound tree will stay sound. It could go rotten.
Post #10 - Matt. 7:21 – all those who say “Lord, Lord” on the last day will not be saved. They are judged by their evil deeds.
Post #11 Matt. 22:14 – Jesus says many are called but few are chosen. This man, who was destined to grace, was at God’s banquet, but was cast out.
Post#12 - Luke 8:13 – Jesus teaches that some people receive the word with joy, but they have no root, believe for a while, and then fall away in temptation. They had the faith but they lost it.
Post #13 - Luke 12:42-46 – we can start out as a faithful and wise steward, then fall away and be assigned to a place with the unfaithful.
Post #28 -Luke 15:11-32 – in the parable of the prodigal son, we learn that we can be genuine sons of the Father, then leave home and die, then return and be described as “alive again.”
Post #29 -John 6:70-71 – Jesus chose or elected twelve, yet one of them, Judas, fell. Not all those predestined to grace persevere to the end.
Post #32 - John 15:1-10 – we can be in Jesus (a branch on the vine), and then if we don’t bear fruit, are cut off, wither up and die. Paul makes this absolutely clear in Rom. 11:20-23.
Post #29 - John 17:12 – we can be given to Jesus by the Father (predestined to grace) and yet not stay with Jesus, like Judas.
Post #33 - John 6:37 – those who continue to come to Jesus He won’t cast out. But it’s a continuous, ongoing action. We can leave Jesus and He will allow this because He respects our freewill.
Post #34 -John 6:39 – Jesus will not lose those the Father gives Him, but we can fall away, like Judas. God allows us not to persevere.
Post #34 -John 6:40 – everyone who sees the Son and believes means the person “continues” to believe. By continuing to believe, the person will persevere and will be raised up. Belief also includes obedience, which is more than an intellectual belief in God.
Post #34 - John 6:44 – Jesus says no one can come to me unless the Father “draws” him. This “drawing” is an ongoing process.
Post #35 -John 10:27-28 – when Jesus says, “no one shall snatch them out of my hands,” He does not mean we can’t leave His hands. We can choose to walk away from Him.
Post #49 - Rev. 2:4-5 – Jesus tells the Ephesians that they abandoned the love they had at first and have fallen. Jesus warns them to repent and do the works they did at first, otherwise He will remove their lampstand (their awaited place in heaven).
Post #49 - Rev. 3:4 – in Sardis, Jesus explained that some people received the white garment and soiled it with sin.
Post #49 - Rev. 3:5 – Jesus says whoever conquers will not be blotted out of the book of life (see Exodus 32:33). This means that we can be blotted out of the book of life. We can have salvation, and then lose salvation by our choice.
Post #49 - Rev. 3:11 – Jesus says to hold fast to what we have, so that no one may seize our crown. Jesus teaches us that we can have the crown of salvation and lose it.
Post #55 - Rev. 13:10; 14:12 – we are called from heaven for the endurance and faith of the saints, keeping the commandments and faith.
Post #58 - Rev. 21:7 – we must conquer in order to share in our heritage and become a true son of Jesus.
Post # 60 - Rev. 22:19 – we can have a share in the tree of life in God’s holy city and yet have that share taken away from us.

I COUNT 21 VERSES/PASSAGES you provided and I responded to all of them as you can see...

Here are my Posts once more

Post #9 - Matt 7:18
Post #10 - Matt 7:21
Post #11 - Matt 22:14
Post #12 - Luke 8:13
Post #13 - Luke 12:42-46
Post #28 - Luke 15:11-32
Post #29 - John 6:60-71; John 17:12,17
Post #32 - John 15:1-10
Post #33 - John 6:37-40
Post #34 - John 6:39, 40 and 44
Post #35 - John 10:26-29
Post #49 - Rev 2:4-5; 3:4-5 and 11
Post #55 - Rev 13:10
Post #58 - Rev 14:12; 21:7-8
Post #60 - Rev 22:18-19

My sources and my assurances are from years of being guided by the spirit of God and also being influenced by other men of God who also have PhDs and less.

Kepha51: A true believer is saved and converted to perfection, as Christ. An (untrue) believer is not saved and never will be. These are the believers that fall away and lose nothing they never had in the first place. They either keep believing and continue using their own faith to gain salvation or just stop and give up along the way. God is never convinced by the actions of these types of fake believers.

Bless you,

APAK

APAK said:

Well Kepha31 I beg to differ with you: I covered all your verses/passages and rebutted them all, and regardless of the PhD fellow (John Salza) you sourced them from, I have 2.9 college degrees under my belt myself and over 35 years of Bible study.

Let me go through them for you...yes, I'm doing al the work again as usual.
Here's your list from Post #8 again..and I will add where I Posted my reply..

Post #9-Matt. 7:18 – Jesus says that sound trees bear good fruit. But there is no guarantee that a sound tree will stay sound. It could go rotten.
Post #10 - Matt. 7:21 – all those who say “Lord, Lord” on the last day will not be saved. They are judged by their evil deeds.
Post #11 Matt. 22:14 – Jesus says many are called but few are chosen. This man, who was destined to grace, was at God’s banquet, but was cast out.
Post#12 - Luke 8:13 – Jesus teaches that some people receive the word with joy, but they have no root, believe for a while, and then fall away in temptation. They had the faith but they lost it.
Post #13 - Luke 12:42-46 – we can start out as a faithful and wise steward, then fall away and be assigned to a place with the unfaithful.
Post #28 -Luke 15:11-32 – in the parable of the prodigal son, we learn that we can be genuine sons of the Father, then leave home and die, then return and be described as “alive again.”
Post #29 -John 6:70-71 – Jesus chose or elected twelve, yet one of them, Judas, fell. Not all those predestined to grace persevere to the end.
Post #32 - John 15:1-10 – we can be in Jesus (a branch on the vine), and then if we don’t bear fruit, are cut off, wither up and die. Paul makes this absolutely clear in Rom. 11:20-23.
Post #29 - John 17:12 – we can be given to Jesus by the Father (predestined to grace) and yet not stay with Jesus, like Judas.
Post #33 - John 6:37 – those who continue to come to Jesus He won’t cast out. But it’s a continuous, ongoing action. We can leave Jesus and He will allow this because He respects our freewill.
Post #34 -John 6:39 – Jesus will not lose those the Father gives Him, but we can fall away, like Judas. God allows us not to persevere.
Post #34 -John 6:40 – everyone who sees the Son and believes means the person “continues” to believe. By continuing to believe, the person will persevere and will be raised up. Belief also includes obedience, which is more than an intellectual belief in God.
Post #34 - John 6:44 – Jesus says no one can come to me unless the Father “draws” him. This “drawing” is an ongoing process.
Post #35 -John 10:27-28 – when Jesus says, “no one shall snatch them out of my hands,” He does not mean we can’t leave His hands. We can choose to walk away from Him.
Post #49 - Rev. 2:4-5 – Jesus tells the Ephesians that they abandoned the love they had at first and have fallen. Jesus warns them to repent and do the works they did at first, otherwise He will remove their lampstand (their awaited place in heaven).
Post #49 - Rev. 3:4 – in Sardis, Jesus explained that some people received the white garment and soiled it with sin.
Post #49 - Rev. 3:5 – Jesus says whoever conquers will not be blotted out of the book of life (see Exodus 32:33). This means that we can be blotted out of the book of life. We can have salvation, and then lose salvation by our choice.
Post #49 - Rev. 3:11 – Jesus says to hold fast to what we have, so that no one may seize our crown. Jesus teaches us that we can have the crown of salvation and lose it.
Post #55 - Rev. 13:10; 14:12 – we are called from heaven for the endurance and faith of the saints, keeping the commandments and faith.
Post #58 - Rev. 21:7 – we must conquer in order to share in our heritage and become a true son of Jesus.
Post # 60 - Rev. 22:19 – we can have a share in the tree of life in God’s holy city and yet have that share taken away from us.

I COUNT 21 VERSES/PASSAGES you provided and I responded to all of them as you can see...

Here are my Posts once more

Post #9 - Matt 7:18
Post #10 - Matt 7:21
Post #11 - Matt 22:14
Post #12 - Luke 8:13
Post #13 - Luke 12:42-46
Post #28 - Luke 15:11-32
Post #29 - John 6:60-71; John 17:12,17
Post #32 - John 15:1-10
Post #33 - John 6:37-40
Post #34 - John 6:39, 40 and 44
Post #35 - John 10:26-29
Post #49 - Rev 2:4-5; 3:4-5 and 11
Post #55 - Rev 13:10
Post #58 - Rev 14:12; 21:7-8
Post #60 - Rev 22:18-19

My sources and my assurances are from years of being guided by the spirit of God and also being influenced by other men of God who also have PhDs and less.

Kepha51: A true believer is saved and converted to perfection, as Christ. An (untrue) believer is not saved and never will be. These are the believers that fall away and lose nothing they never had in the first place. They either keep believing and continue using their own faith to gain salvation or just stop and give up along the way. God is never convinced by the actions of these types of fake believers.

Bless you,

APAK

Click to expand...

Pure speculation and scripture quotes that do not belong to the born again.

Enoch111 said:

Since 2 Peter 2 speaks about false prophets and false teachers who were denying Christ, it does not refute the eternal security of the believer who has fully trusted in Christ as Lord and Savior.

The whole tenor of this chapter is about men who are deliberately perverting the Gospel. They could not possibly have been saved to begin with hence Peter says whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not (v. 3).

In other words, their judgment and damnation is certain. These are not word applied to believers.

Click to expand...

2 Peter 2 refers to those who had been "bought" but turn apostate.

APAK said:

Ernest: I'm confused by your writing here and even your logic.

I will just comment on the top reply you made back to me...

(2Pe 2:1) False Teachers But there arose false prophets also among the people, as among you also there shall be false teachers, who shall secretly bring in destructive heresies, denying even the master that bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.(NEV)

Ernest can you see that these were false teachers in 2 Peter, that rejected or denied Jesus and his blood he shed for them (they reject that he bought them)!! A believer believes this at the heart of his conversion process, and does not reject this vital point for salvation.

Hoe can a believer deny what he/she represents and believes in. I cannot make it any clearer Ernest.


Bless you,

APAK

Click to expand...

Nothing here to be confused about.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

What does "bought" (past tense) mean and who had been "bought" (past tense)?

Ernest T. Bass said:

Nothing here to be confused about.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

What does "bought" (past tense) mean and who had been "bought" (past tense)?

Click to expand...

Ernest: still stuck on the word 'bought?' Hint: It does not mean having salvation or been born-again!

Already at least three people have given you this answer including myself. What more do you want?

Again, Jesus paid the price (bought) on the cross so ALL people now can have their sins forgiven, if and only if they believe that Jesus did this for them. And whomever believes in him and his works can have eternal life. Now anyone can reject or not believe in this sacrificial act of Jesus and they can still consider themselves believers all day long, although they fool themselves and lie. They are really false believers and even false teachers as 2 Peter 2:1 says.

They DENIED the Lord (MASTER) who BOUGHT or REDEEMED them. ALL men have been BOUGHT by Jesus our Lord.

Let me even say it all in another way. In fact from an outside non-biased source if you do not want to hear from me for some reason: and I will use a internet source that I agree will fully (source: redeeminggod.com)

It says:

“The word “bought” is the Greek word agarazō, which in a Master-slave relationship refers to being redeemed (cf. Rev 5:9, 14:3-4). So what is Peter saying? He writes that these false prophets, these false teachers, these bringers of divisions, have been redeemed by Jesus their Master, and yet, as shocking as it sounds, they have the gall to deny Him!”

I hope this query has been answered for good.

Bless you,

APAK

Ernest T. Bass said:

2 Peter 2 refers to those who had been "bought" but turn apostate.

Click to expand...

"Bought" in this context would be a reference to their false profession of faith, not their actual conversion.

There are many false teachers who say they are Christians. Which would imply that they are like genuine Christians who have been bought with a price, and are not their own.

However, their deliberate perversion of Gospel truth and Bible truth means that they were never really saved, and the blood of Christ was not applied to their souls. As Christ will say to the false professors "I never knew you".

So in the context of 2 Peter, they are seemingly *bought and are the purchased possession of Christ*, but in reality -- as Peter says -- their damnation was reserved for them for a very long time. They were mere pretenders. There will be tares within every church pretending to be wheat.

Today we have clergymen all over the world who do not believe that the Bible is the Word of God, and do not preach Bible truth, but claim to be Christians, and wear the garb of clergy, while engaging in unchristian activities. They should all have been fired, but are allowed to pretend that they are Christian clergymen.

Enoch111 said:

"Bought" in this context would be a reference to their false profession of faith, not their actual conversion.

Click to expand...

What in the context supports this?

If 'bought' does not mean they had been (past tense) redeemed by the blood of Christ, then:
--who was it that bought them if not Christ
--why were they bought
--why were they now rejecting the one who had bought them?

Enoch111 said:

There are many false teachers who say they are Christians. Which would imply that they are like genuine Christians who have been bought with a price, and are not their own.

However, their deliberate perversion of Gospel truth and Bible truth means that they were never really saved, and the blood of Christ was not applied to their souls. As Christ will say to the false professors "I never knew you".

So in the context of 2 Peter, they are seemingly *bought and are the purchased possession of Christ*, but in reality -- as Peter says -- their damnation was reserved for them for a very long time. They were mere pretenders. There will be tares within every church pretending to be wheat.

Today we have clergymen all over the world who do not believe that the Bible is the Word of God, and do not preach Bible truth, but claim to be Christians, and wear the garb of clergy, while engaging in unchristian activities. They should all have been fired, but are allowed to pretend that they are Christian clergymen.

Click to expand...

I do not see that the "never really saved" argument:


2 Pet 2:15 "Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;"

--logically they could not forsake the right way and go astray if they were never in the right way and always astray
--Balaam is mentioned for he had been a true prophet of God (Numbers 22:8) but later prophesied false things. Peter is showing, as some might say, that history repeats itself. There were false teachers among God's chosen in OT times as there will be false teachers among God's chosen in NT times.

2 Peter 2:20 "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning."

IF they were always lost, never saved, then they would have never escaped the pollutions of the world thru the knowledge of Christ nor could it be possible for them to be AGAIN entangled if they were always entangled.


2 Peter 2:21 "For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them." They could not turn from the way of righteousness if they were never in the way of righteousness.

2 Peter 2:22 "But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."

These false teachers are depicted as having once 'vomited' out the sin and corruption in them, but now have returned to consume that sin and corruption back into themselves. They had once been "bought" redeemed by the blood of Christ having their washed away by the blood of Christ but are now, as the sow, have returned to wallowing in the mire of sin.

These verses would not make much sense if they had always been lost, never saved.

APAK said:

Ernest: still stuck on the word 'bought?' Hint: It does not mean having salvation or been born-again!

Already at least three people have given you this answer including myself. What more do you want?

Click to expand...

Yes, bought does have to do with them having been redeemed by the blood of Christ and for those that deny this they have not given a logical, Biblical alternative for what bought would mean.

[Quote+APAK]
Again, Jesus paid the price (bought) on the cross so ALL people now can have their sins forgiven, if and only if they believe that Jesus did this for them. And whomever believes in him and his works can have eternal life. Now anyone can reject or not believe in this sacrificial act of Jesus and they can still consider themselves believers all day long, although they fool themselves and lie. They are really false believers and even false teachers as 2 Peter 2:1 says.

They DENIED the Lord (MASTER) who BOUGHT or REDEEMED them. ALL men have been BOUGHT by Jesus our Lord.[/quote]

No, all people have not been bought. Such an idea is pushing universalism.

1 Peter 1:18-19 "Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot"

Acts 20:28 "Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood."

Those in the church, the body of Christ are the only ones who have been bought/purchased/redeemed by the blood of Christ as those in 2 Peter 2:1.

No verse whatsoever says all men have been bougth/purchased/redeemed by the blood of Christ.

APAK said:

Let me even say it all in another way. In fact from an outside non-biased source if you do not want to hear from me for some reason: and I will use a internet source that I agree will fully (source: redeeminggod.com)

It says:

“The word “bought” is the Greek word agarazō, which in a Master-slave relationship refers to being redeemed (cf. Rev 5:9, 14:3-4). So what is Peter saying? He writes that these false prophets, these false teachers, these bringers of divisions, have been redeemed by Jesus their Master, and yet, as shocking as it sounds, they have the gall to deny Him!”

I hope this query has been answered for good.

Bless you,

APAK

Click to expand...

So the man made idea of OSAS has driven its supporters to deny that one who had been bought/purchased/redeemed and owned by Christ but lost anyway??????? Wow just wow.

I have already posted verses above that show only those that are in the church, the body of Christ are the ones who have been bought/purchased/redeemed. Only the saved are in the body of Christ, no one else.

1 Corinthians 1:12-13
12 - Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
13 - Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

There was division in the church at Corinth where instead they were all "of Christ" some said there were "of Paul" "of Cephas" and some "of Apollos".

To heal the division and bring all to being "of Christ" Paul asks a rhetorical question in verse 13 in the negative. Verse 13 in the positive would be "Christ is not divided! Christ was crucified for you, you were baptized in the name of Christ."

Paul's point is that if you are to be "of" someone then 2 things must be true of that someone, that someone must be
1) crucified for you
2) you must be baptized in that someone's name

Since these two things are only true of Christ, then no one can be "of" another person.

Was Christ crucified for me? Yes Hebrews 2:9 Christ tasted death for every man.
Have I been baptized in the name of Christ? Yes, when I obeyed the gospel by being water baptized.

The phrase "in the name of" is a legal term and means ownership. I buy a new car and take the paper work to my local clerks office and have the car registered "in the name of" Ernest T Bass. It shows ownership, I own the car, I bought/purchased the car. Since I was baptized in the name of Christ, then I have come into His ownership, he has bought me, purchased me, redeemed me. Those in Acts 2 that were baptized were the ones that the Lord added to His church Acts 2:47. Again, only those that are in the church, the body of Christ that has been purchased/bought NO ONE else.


Luke 6:46 "And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?"

Jesus is not UNconditionally Lord/Master of everyone but only the Lord/Master of those that CONDITIONALLY do the things which He says. Since I did as the Lord said in submitting to water baptism, [I was baptized in the name of the Lord], then He is now my Owner/Master/Lord.

So again, the idea that all men have been bought/purchased/redeemed is patently false, it is grasping for straws in an attempt to get around the obvious meaning of 2 Peter 2:1.

Ernest T. Bass said:

Yes, bought does have to do with them having been redeemed by the blood of Christ and for those that deny this they have not given a logical, Biblical alternative for what bought would mean.

[Quote+APAK]
Again, Jesus paid the price (bought) on the cross so ALL people now can have their sins forgiven, if and only if they believe that Jesus did this for them. And whomever believes in him and his works can have eternal life. Now anyone can reject or not believe in this sacrificial act of Jesus and they can still consider themselves believers all day long, although they fool themselves and lie. They are really false believers and even false teachers as 2 Peter 2:1 says.

They DENIED the Lord (MASTER) who BOUGHT or REDEEMED them. ALL men have been BOUGHT by Jesus our Lord.

Click to expand...

No, all people have not been bought. Such an idea is pushing universalism.

1 Peter 1:18-19 "Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot"

Acts 20:28 "Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood."

Those in the church, the body of Christ are the only ones who have been bought/purchased/redeemed by the blood of Christ as those in 2 Peter 2:1.

No verse whatsoever says all men have been bougth/purchased/redeemed by the blood of Christ.



So the man made idea of OSAS has driven its supporters to deny that one who had been bought/purchased/redeemed and owned by Christ but lost anyway??????? Wow just wow.

I have already posted verses above that show only those that are in the church, the body of Christ are the ones who have been bought/purchased/redeemed. Only the saved are in the body of Christ, no one else.

1 Corinthians 1:12-13
12 - Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
13 - Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

There was division in the church at Corinth where instead they were all "of Christ" some said there were "of Paul" "of Cephas" and some "of Apollos".

To heal the division and bring all to being "of Christ" Paul asks a rhetorical question in verse 13 in the negative. Verse 13 in the positive would be "Christ is not divided! Christ was crucified for you, you were baptized in the name of Christ."

Paul's point is that if you are to be "of" someone then 2 things must be true of that someone, that someone must be
1) crucified for you
2) you must be baptized in that someone's name

Since these two things are only true of Christ, then no one can be "of" another person.

Was Christ crucified for me? Yes Hebrews 2:9 Christ tasted death for every man.
Have I been baptized in the name of Christ? Yes, when I obeyed the gospel by being water baptized.

The phrase "in the name of" is a legal term and means ownership. I buy a new car and take the paper work to my local clerks office and have the car registered "in the name of" Ernest T Bass. It shows ownership, I own the car, I bought/purchased the car. Since I was baptized in the name of Christ, then I have come into His ownership, he has bought me, purchased me, redeemed me. Those in Acts 2 that were baptized were the ones that the Lord added to His church Acts 2:47. Again, only those that are in the church, the body of Christ that has been purchased/bought NO ONE else.


Luke 6:46 "And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?"

Jesus is not UNconditionally Lord/Master of everyone but only the Lord/Master of those that CONDITIONALLY do the things which He says. Since I did as the Lord said in submitting to water baptism, [I was baptized in the name of the Lord], then He is now my Owner/Master/Lord.

So again, the idea that all men have been bought/purchased/redeemed is patently false, it is grasping for straws in an attempt to get around the obvious meaning of 2 Peter 2:1.[/QUOTE]

Bless you Ernest. It 's been nice chatting with you..APAK

Those scripture that seems to be anti OSAS are really being misapplied by believers into thinking salvation is conditional upon our abiding in Him, but salvation is not conditional when the foundation has been laid by Jesus Christ which can never be removed, but the works on that foundation can be judged, whereupon any unrepentant iniquity can run the risk of that saint being left behind at the pre great trib rapture in becoming damned as vessels unto dishonor but still in His House.

If we believe we are working to maintain our salvation, then we are denying Him as having been saved by Him.

The race is about living by faith in Jesus Christ as our Good Shepherd to finish His work in us so as to receive us as vessels unto honor in His House which is to His glory at the pre great trib rapture event when God will judge His House first.

Salvation is done by believing in Him.

Abiding in Him is what discipleship, hence running that race is all about... for the prize of being received by Him as a vessel unto honor in His House.

So place all your hopes in Jesus Christ as your Good Shepherd and Friend in making you & keeping you as His friend to be received by Him as the Bridegroom. Trust Him to help you see what & when you are sowing to the flesh to put that weight & sin away so you can run with Him in the light.

JesusIsFaithful said:

Those scripture that seems to be anti OSAS are really being misapplied by believers into thinking salvation is conditional upon our abiding in Him, but salvation is not conditional when the foundation has been laid by Jesus Christ which can never be removed, but the works on that foundation can be judged, whereupon any unrepentant iniquity can run the risk of that saint being left behind at the pre great trib rapture in becoming damned as vessels unto dishonor but still in His House.

If we believe we are working to maintain our salvation, then we are denying Him as having been saved by Him.

The race is about living by faith in Jesus Christ as our Good Shepherd to finish His work in us so as to receive us as vessels unto honor in His House which is to His glory at the pre great trib rapture event when God will judge His House first.

Salvation is done by believing in Him.

Abiding in Him is what discipleship, hence running that race is all about... for the prize of being received by Him as a vessel unto honor in His House.

So place all your hopes in Jesus Christ as your Good Shepherd and Friend in making you & keeping you as His friend to be received by Him as the Bridegroom. Trust Him to help you see what & when you are sowing to the flesh to put that weight & sin away so you can run with Him in the light.

Click to expand...

You post "Salvation is done by believing in Him." What if one quits believing? Verses as John 3:16 have the verb "believeth"in the present tense meaning one must CONDITIONALLY faithfully, stedfastly continue to believe unto death to be saved.

The Bible shows there are 2 sides to salvation:
1) continued faithfulness, stedfastness on part of the Christian (Revelation 2:10; 1 Corinthians 4:1-2; Hebrews 3:14; 1 Corinthians 15:58)
2) God's faithfulness to the faithful, stedfast Christian (John 10:28; Hebrews 13:5)

In all the years of my debating with OSAS proponents, they have ALWAYS taken verses that speak to God's faithfulness to the Christian (#2), pull those verses out of context and wrest them into teaching OSAS all the while they do not want to have to deal with the verses that command, demand faithfulness and stedfastness on part of the Christian (#1). They will also attack the present tense, subjunctive mood, conditional statements and qualifying statements in attempt to push the OSAS agenda.

Case in point:

John 10:
27 - My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 - And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Verse 28 is pulled from John chapter 10 and removed from ALL other Bible contexts and wrested into teaching OSAS. This verse by itself removed from the rest of the Bible does not tell us to whom the pronouns "them" and "they" refer to.

But when verse 28 is put back into the text from which it was ripped we can now see that the "them" and "they" of verse 28 refers to Christ's sheep of verse 27.

--Who qualifies to be Christ's sheep? Those that CONDITIONALLY hear and follow Him, His disciples.
--the verbs "hear" and "follow" being in the present tense show a current ONGOING action meaning the sheep must be FAITHFUL and STEDFAST in their hearing and following Christ.
--those that quit hearing and following Christ, i.e., that no longer following God's commands to be faithful and stedfast are no longer of the "they" and "them" of verse 28. They were not plucked out of God's hand nor did God leave and forsake them but they left and forsook God by not CONDITIONALLY continuing to be faithful and stedfast to God, His word.

Ernest T. Bass said:

You post "Salvation is done by believing in Him." What if one quits believing? Verses as John 3:16 have the verb "believeth"in the present tense meaning one must CONDITIONALLY faithfully, stedfastly continue to believe unto death to be saved.

The Bible shows there are 2 sides to salvation:
1) continued faithfulness, stedfastness on part of the Christian (Revelation 2:10; 1 Corinthians 4:1-2; Hebrews 3:14; 1 Corinthians 15:58)
2) God's faithfulness to the faithful, stedfast Christian (John 10:28; Hebrews 13:5)

In all the years of my debating with OSAS proponents, they have ALWAYS taken verses that speak to God's faithfulness to the Christian (#2), pull those verses out of context and wrest them into teaching OSAS all the while they do not want to have to deal with the verses that command, demand faithfulness and stedfastness on part of the Christian (#1). They will also attack the present tense, subjunctive mood, conditional statements and qualifying statements in attempt to push the OSAS agenda.

Case in point:

John 10:
27 - My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 - And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Verse 28 is pulled from John chapter 10 and removed from ALL other Bible contexts and wrested into teaching OSAS. This verse by itself removed from the rest of the Bible does not tell us to whom the pronouns "them" and "they" refer to.

But when verse 28 is put back into the text from which it was ripped we can now see that the "them" and "they" of verse 28 refers to Christ's sheep of verse 27.

--Who qualifies to be Christ's sheep? Those that CONDITIONALLY hear and follow Him, His disciples.
--the verbs "hear" and "follow" being in the present tense show a current ONGOING action meaning the sheep must be FAITHFUL and STEDFAST in their hearing and following Christ.
--those that quit hearing and following Christ, i.e., that no longer following God's commands to be faithful and stedfast are no longer of the "they" and "them" of verse 28. They were not plucked out of God's hand nor did God leave and forsake them but they left and forsook God by not CONDITIONALLY continuing to be faithful and stedfast to God, His word.

Click to expand...

Ernest: Before you go off down the wrong path again I would suggest you read JIF's post again, especially the beginning quote you quickly homed in on. You are making a case based on your haste and misinterpreting the quote "Salvation is done by believing in Him."

Not speaking for @JesusIsFaithful , I will interpret what I instantly see in this statement based on the context of the entire post and other one's posted.
JIF means the mandatory initial belief(s) required for salvation to gain salvation - Jesus' work on the cross and it meaning, confession and repentance of sin, belief in the baptism in Christ and being a new creature, belief in the acquisition of the spirit of God with his gift of saving faith (not our faith) to salvation. This entry to salvation is not conditional. We either believe in all these things I've just said or we are NEVER saved. God will not accept us, period. After we are saved our initial beliefs turn into something more valuable - FAITH, build on the initial faith God gave us for justification,righteousness and salvation. These are not conditional attributes of salvation and salvation itself. We wanted it so badly for the heart, and God 'saw' it was truly genuine, so he gave us the saving faith to salvation, period. What is conditional however is how frequently we cooperate win God, post salvation!! Do we want to grow in faith and spirit of Christ or just want to stay in the back seats of the stadium of salvation. We will never be thrown out on the streets and somehow have to fight our back into the stadium of salvation. Good luck with that one and going your own way, and God's way....

I surmise over the years you never really listened to those OSAS folks and read associated scripture without the bias of your own will and mind getting in the way - as a true natural man. It is harder to break free of this bad habit if it is really engrained within yourself.

Bless you,

APAK

APAK said:

Ernest: Before you go off down the wrong path again I would suggest you read JIF's post again, especially the beginning quote you quickly homed in on. You are making a case based on your haste and misinterpreting the quote "Salvation is done by believing in Him."

Not speaking for @JesusIsFaithful , I will interpret what I instantly see in this statement based on the context of the entire post and other one's posted.
JIF means the mandatory initial belief(s) required for salvation to gain salvation - Jesus' work on the cross and it meaning, confession and repentance of sin, belief in the baptism in Christ and being a new creature, belief in the acquisition of the spirit of God with his gift of saving faith (not our faith) to salvation. This entry to salvation is not conditional. We either believe in all these things I've just said or we are NEVER saved. God will not accept us, period. After we are saved our initial beliefs turn into something more valuable - FAITH, build on the initial faith God gave us for justification,righteousness and salvation. These are not conditional attributes of salvation and salvation itself. We wanted it so badly for the heart, and God 'saw' it was truly genuine, so he gave us the saving faith to salvation, period. What is conditional however is how frequently we cooperate win God, post salvation!! Do we want to grow in faith and spirit of Christ or just want to stay in the back seats of the stadium of salvation. We will never be thrown out on the streets and somehow have to fight our back into the stadium of salvation. Good luck with that one and going your own way, and God's way....

I surmise over the years you never really listened to those OSAS folks and read associated scripture without the bias of your own will and mind getting in the way - as a true natural man. It is harder to break free of this bad habit if it is really engrained within yourself.

Bless you,

APAK

Click to expand...

He made the statement "If we believe we are working to maintain our salvation, then we are denying Him as having been saved by Him." which has no Biblical bases. It denies (#1) that the Christian has a role and responsibility to obey God's command to remain faithful and stedfast and this takes work, striving (agonizing) Luke 13:24. In my last post I clearly pointed out the flaw OSAS proponents make. Wait and see if someone comes along and challenges me on John 10:27-28 and see that they do to this text.

Ernest T. Bass said:

You post "Salvation is done by believing in Him." What if one quits believing? Verses as John 3:16 have the verb "believeth"in the present tense meaning one must CONDITIONALLY faithfully, stedfastly continue to believe unto death to be saved.

Click to expand...

Is salvation "continually believing in Him to be saved"? Or is salvation is about "having believed in Him, we are saved"? If the former, then how can any one testify that Jesus Christ is their Saviour unless they had been saved since they had believed in Him, thus no longer condemned to the second death? If we are to seek salvation to continually believe in Him, then does that not put salvation on our efforts by continually believing in Him to be saved? If so, how can Jesus Christ be the true Saviour?

John 6:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

I believe in OSAS, but believers are at risk for not abiding in Him if they build on that foundation works that deny Him thus running that risk of being denied by Him ( Titus 1:16 & 2 Timothy 2:12 ) at the pre great tribulation rapture event as in left behind to become vessels unto dishonor in His House.

Ernest T. Bass said:

He made the statement "If we believe we are working to maintain our salvation, then we are denying Him as having been saved by Him." which has no Biblical bases. It denies (#1) that the Christian has a role and responsibility to obey God's command to remain faithful and stedfast and this takes work, striving (agonizing) Luke 13:24.

Click to expand...

Ernest: So I see you have ignored my last post for some reason and moved on to something else you think may gain traction.

Again, if you reread what I just said in my last post, and really understood it, you will understand then why I, agree with @JesusIsFaithful statement of "If we believe we are working to maintain our salvation, then we are denying Him as having been saved by Him."

Now I must admit the statement is not as clear as it could be fashioned. It could also be a sophisticated catch-all statement with 3 meanings - clever!

1. It can read to mean, if we are striving to gain salvation through our own means, out of fear, we are then denying and doubting the work of God and Christ for salvation. We are still an unbeliever.
2. It can read to mean that a person who thinks he /her is saved believes they still need to maintain their salvation through their own efforts, and deny the work of God and Christ. We are still an unbeliever.
2. It can also mean that a saved person still has doubts about his/her salvation after becoming saved or converted. This saved believer has not grown in faith since his/her conversion and need guidance from above and from brethren.

BL: a saved person never maintains their salvation, they maintain their spiritual growth with God by cooperation and in sanctification. This part is conditional upon the person's actions..

Bless you,

APAK