Why were they CHOSEN then SCATTERED and then GATHERED; WHY?

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Ac28

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It seems to me that you do not understand that the 1948 return of some of Abraham's descendants was in fulfilment of God's prophetic word to Abraham in Genesis 15 : 16. In this prophecy, God indicates that He will not be involved in their return. Interestingly, the return, from my understanding of history, occurred close to 4,000 years after the Birth of Isaac.

Now Israel was set aside as you have put it because of the passage found in Exodus 20 : 4 - 6 where God said that the iniquities of the fathers, i.e. idolatrous worship during the first 2 ages of their existence as a nation would be visited upon their children and their children's children in the third and the fourth (age).

Also in Ezekiel 34: 11 - 16 God informs us that He will seek out His lost Sheep and that He will gather them to plant them in good fertile soil so that they can feed on the Mountains of Israel, the rock that will be coming down out of heaven when God establishes His ever lasting Kingdom here on the earth during the time of these kings spoken about in the statue prophecy concerning the Land of Babylon. When Israel seeks Christ's terms of peace as Christ told them in Luke 14, then they will be saved when they accept them, at the time of the judgement of the heathen kings of the earth on the earth which occurs at the same time as the judgement of the wicked fallen heavenly hosts in heaven (Isa 24:21-22) as Paul tells us in Romans 11 : 25-26 after the fulfilment of the 2,300 years of the trampling of the sanctuary of God by them, that all of Israel will be saved.

Christ also told us when Israel would be save in the Lesson of the Fig Tree budding that heralds the time of the beginning of the summer season of harvest.

The Nation of Israel will have there part to play in this harvest after God renews the Kingdom of Priests and a Holy Nation and His possession among the nations Covenant in our near future with them as set out in Jeremiah 31: 31 ff.

Now Jesus told the parable of the owner of the harvest having two sons who he asked to go out into the vineyard to work, the first son initially rejected his father's request, but relented later and did so. The second son told his father that he would do so but did not. (Matthew 21 : 28 - 32)

I wonder if this parable was Christ's reflection on Israel and the Gentile Church.

All of the above is food for thought.

Shalom
Prove it.

The Israel of God will ALWAYS have to keep the law in order for them to be God's people. It's impossible for them to now keep the law. When God really gathers them, here's what will really happen. The new spirit is the New Covenant, which will given, only to Israel, when God finally does gather them and put them into the land. It's sole purpose will be to put the law in Israel's inward parts, Jer 31-33, so they will be able to keep the law and love doing it. If anyone truly believes that those Talmudic, unbelieving, fake usurpers in Israel today, are anything like the prophecies of Jer 31:31-34 and Eze 36:24-28, I have this bridge for sale.
Exe 36:24-28
24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

Since there is no nation of Israel today, and since all prophecy involves Israel, it is impossible that any prophecy has been fulfilled since 70AD.

Israel Today - The Grand Hoax
"The Israeli government, today, is made up of unbelieving Jews administering a socialistic government which depends mostly upon the U.S.A. for its sustenance. When the true descendants of the three Patriarchs occupy the Land, they will depend on the LORD their God, and in no-one else will they trust. They will be totally dependent upon the Lord Jesus Christ. And, He will meet every need of His re-gathered people."
 
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bbyrd009

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The Nation of Israel will have there part to play in this harvest after God renews the Kingdom of Priests and a Holy Nation and His possession among the nations Covenant in our near future with them as set out in
that would make the children of the flesh the children of the promise, wouldn't it?
 

bbyrd009

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It's impossible for them to now keep the law.
where are you getting this stuff? What law is it impossible for anyone to keep? The laws of an ancient kingdom that went defunct 2000 years ago? Is that what you mean? Is it so confusing that "Law" = "Decalogue" to God, and that we have our own laws derived from the decalogue?

Why do believers go to this "we don't have to keep the law" rather than the much more Scriptural "the law is not even adequate, the law is the bare minimum one must keep," as plainly outlined, in many passages? Ancient Hebrew Law? Of course not; who wants to go back to stoning for telling a lie?

Imo this confusion about supposedly possibly having to keep the civil laws of an ancient defunct kingdom is propagated by the willfully ignorant, to keep ppl in bondage; but that doesn't mean that one does not have to keep the laws that apply to them

anyone who teaches others that they do not have to keep the law will be considered least in the kingdom? sound familiar?
 
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Jay Ross

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There are two different aspects about “Israel” going on here.
The first (1) is the biblical view that is cut in stone and we can spent eternity debating the importance of one verse to another and then we have-----]
The second (2) debate.

The second debate is about the here and now. If the Jews had chosen some other name for their stolen country something other than “Israel”; the context of this debate/discussion would be totally different. But they didn’t so they are bound by the name they chose and the covenant they should have with God and His directives.

Based on that view they have failed. They lie, steal and murder in spite of God’s teachings.

For this they will face the consequences. And these consequences will occur in your lifetime and mine.

Ezekiel

25And you, profane wicked prince of Israel, whose day is come, when iniquity shall have an end,

26Thus says the Lord GOD; Remove the turban, and take off the crown: this shall not remain the same: exalt him that is low, and abase him that is high.

27I will overturn, overturn, overturn, it: and it shall be no more, until he comes whose right it is; and I will give it to him.

31And I will pour out my indignation upon you, I will blow against you in the fire of my wrath, and deliver you into the hand of brutal men, skilful to destroy.

32You shall be for fuel to the fire; your blood shall be in the midst of the land; you shall be no more remembered: for I the LORD have spoken it.

According to a 2002 study by the Jewish Agency, "the number of Jews in the world is declining at an average of 50,000 per year."

Jewish population by country - Wikipedia


The End Is Near

It seems to me that you have an axe to grind against Israel, for you take prophecy out of context and cobble together passages, and leave out verses that identify who the prophetic word is for/about, to suit your end goal against Israel.

Perhaps your iniquities will be your downfall unless you fall on God's grace and repent.
 

Jay Ross

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Prove it.

The Israel of God will ALWAYS have to keep the law in order for them to be God's people. It's impossible for them to now keep the law. When God really gathers them, here's what will really happen. The new spirit is the New Covenant, which will given, only to Israel, when God finally does gather them and put them into the land. It's sole purpose will be to put the law in Israel's inward parts, Jer 31-33, so they will be able to keep the law and love doing it. If anyone truly believes that those Talmudic, unbelieving, fake usurpers in Israel today, are anything like the prophecies of Jer 31:31-34 and Eze 36:24-28, I have this bridge for sale.
Exe 36:24-28
24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

Since there is no nation of Israel today, and since all prophecy involves Israel, it is impossible that any prophecy has been fulfilled since 70AD.

Israel Today - The Grand Hoax
"The Israeli government, today, is made up of unbelieving Jews administering a socialistic government which depends mostly upon the U.S.A. for its sustenance. When the true descendants of the three Patriarchs occupy the Land, they will depend on the LORD their God, and in no-one else will they trust. They will be totally dependent upon the Lord Jesus Christ. And, He will meet every need of His re-gathered people."

It is interesting that the Ezekiel 36:24-28 passage that you quoted tells the same story in the passage that I quoted, I.e. Ezekiel 34:11-16 where God promises to return the nation of Israel to the fertile soil (H:0127) of "Israel," i.e. being the children of God and worshipping Him alone.

Now verse Ezekiel 36:28 does tell us that the nation of Israel shall, i.e. sometime in the future and not necessarily linked to Ezekiel 36:24, dwell in the land that He gave to their fathers as an inheritance, but this portion of the above passage is a distant future event while verse 24 above is a near future event.

Now you have said that I have to prove that the 1948 return of same of Abraham's descendants to the land of Canaan was prophesised in Genesis 15:16 because you claim that God has not yet gathered them to himself.

Well I agree with your sediment. God has not sent about gathering the Nation of Israel to Himself yet, it is still a near future event, that will occur in our near future at the beginning of the Summer season of the great harvest of souls unto the Lord. This will happen in another 20-30 years time from now in accordance with the Parable of the Lesson from the Fig tree, Matt 24:32.

Your evidence that Genesis 15:16 has not occurred is flimsy as this prophecy does not indicate that God will be involved in their return to the land. In fact Daniel 11 tells us that they shall return here: -

Daniel 11 : 30 - 35: -
"So he shall return and show regard for those who forsake the holy covenant. 31 And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation. 32 Those who do wickedly against the covenant he shall corrupt with flattery; but the people who know their God shall be strong, and carry out great exploits. 33 And those of the people who understand shall instruct many; yet for many days they shall fall by sword and flame, by captivity and plundering. 34 Now when they fall, they shall be aided with a little help; but many shall join with them by intrigue. 35 And some of those of understanding shall fall, to refine them, purify them, and make them white, until the time of the end; because it is still for the appointed time.

but it is a little difficult to see in the text, but other people have joined themselves by intrigue to Israel with flatteries to force the outcome that they desire for themselves by helping the descendant of Abraham to return to the Land of Canaan in their own strength.

Jesus in the parable of the Fig tree in Matt 24:32 confirms that the Nation of Israel will some time in the future, even though it was cursed, begin once more to bring forth new leaves and that when we observe that event we will know that the Summer season of Harvest will be upon us soon. After the fulfilment of the time of the Gentiles trampling the sanctuary of God then all of Israel will be saved, but the end of the time of the Gentiles is still a future event.

I would suggest that it would be prudent for you to prove that I am wrong and to clearly state with evidence that I am wrong as the evidence I see seems to be confirming what I have posted above.

Shalom
 

Ac28

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My main point is that there can be no prophesy fulfilled if there is no Israel, since all prophecy since Gen 12 involves Israel. There is no absolute smoking gun verse that says Israel has been set aside, but there is plenty of strong circumstantial evidence that easily tips the scale and says they have. I'll work on a list and post it. I need to make one anyway.
 

tooldtocare

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It seems to me that you have an axe to grind against Israel, for you take prophecy out of context and cobble together passages, and leave out verses that identify who the prophetic word is for/about, to suit your end goal against Israel.

Why I am here

I have a personal attachment to the Old Testament and the verses contained therein. This includes the verses where the Lord talked directly to the Israelite people. In this one-way discussion the Lord laid out directives for them to follow and the blessing they would get if they followed His suggestions. I took these directives and compared them to historical events and found them wanting. Personally, I would like to see the Israeli people change their ways by embracing the stranger (Palestinian) and treat them as one of their own just as the Lord instructed them to do. I truly believe this “example” would create a wave of peace across the middle east.

Jay Ross, if you think I am posting verses that are distorting and\or out of context then please point them out thereby educating me to the truth. If you cannot then I stand by my words.
 

Jay Ross

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Why I am here

I have a personal attachment to the Old Testament and the verses contained therein. This includes the verses where the Lord talked directly to the Israelite people. In this one-way discussion the Lord laid out directives for them to follow and the blessing they would get if they followed His suggestions. I took these directives and compared them to historical events and found them wanting. Personally, I would like to see the Israeli people change their ways by embracing the stranger (Palestinian) and treat them as one of their own just as the Lord instructed them to do. I truly believe this “example” would create a wave of peace across the middle east.
I simply wonder at your attachment to the Old Testament.

Jay Ross, if you think I am posting verses that are distorting and\or out of context then please point them out thereby educating me to the truth. If you cannot then I stand by my words.

Here is an example of your bias: -

Ezekiel

25And you, profane wicked prince of Israel, whose day is come, when iniquity shall have an end,

26Thus says the Lord GOD; Remove the turban, and take off the crown: this shall not remain the same: exalt him that is low, and abase him that is high.

27I will overturn, overturn, overturn, it: and it shall be no more, until he comes whose right it is; and I will give it to him.

You omitted to include this portion of the Ezekiel 25 passage that you quoted: -

Ezekiel 21: 28 - 30 A Sword Against the Ammonites
28 "And you, son of man, prophesy and say, 'Thus says the Lord God concerning the Ammonites and concerning their reproach,' and say:
'A sword, a sword is drawn,
Polished for slaughter,
For consuming, for flashing —
29 While they see false visions for you,
While they divine a lie to you,
To bring you on the necks of the wicked, the slain
Whose day has come,
Whose iniquity shall end.
30 'Return it to its sheath.
I will judge you
In the place where you were created,
In the land of your nativity.

31And I will pour out my indignation upon you, I will blow against you in the fire of my wrath, and deliver you into the hand of brutal men, skilful to destroy.

32You shall be for fuel to the fire; your blood shall be in the midst of the land; you shall be no more remembered: for I the LORD have spoken it.

Who are the Ammonites?

Genesis 19: 36 - 38: - 36 Thus both the daughters of Lot were with child by their father. 37 The firstborn bore a son and called his name Moab; he is the father of the Moabites to this day. 38 And the younger, she also bore a son and called his name Ben-Ammi; he is the father of the people of Ammon to this day.

I rest my case with these two examples
 
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tooldtocare

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You can twist, turn or flip upside down all you want but the Lord only talked about/to one people and those people were Israelite s.

Ezekiel
25And you,profane wicked prince of Israel, whose day is come, when iniquity shall have an end,

26Thus says the Lord GOD; Remove the turban, and take off the crown: this shall not remain the same: exalt him that is low, and abase him that is high.

27I will overturn, overturn, overturn, it: and it shall be no more, until he comes whose right it is; and I will give it to him.

31And I will pour out my indignation upon you, I will blow against you in the fire of my wrath, and deliver you into the hand of brutal men, skilful to destroy.

32You shall be for fuel to the fire; your blood shall be in the midst of the land;you shall be no more remembered: for I the LORD have spoken it.