Looking for advice: Can women be pastors

Jun2u said:

1) All the Prophets were men.
2) All the Kings were men.
3) All the Judges were men, except for Deborah.
4) All the Apostles were men.
5) All Pastors and Deacons are men.

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Correct. And here is the reason why:
But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. (1 Cor 11:3).

To put this in perspective we could rearrange what is stated as follows, and the word "head" is symbolic of "authority":
The head of Christ is God
The head of every man is Christ
The head of the woman is the man

"But I would have you know" is also important, since the Holy Spirit (speaking through Paul) wants every Christian to understand this fundamental spiritual hierarchy. Even though Christ is co-equal with God the Father (and is indeed God), He is under the authority of the Father as the Son. Even though the Christian woman is spiritually co-equal with the Christian man in the Body of Christ (as children of God), she is under his authority.

The precedent for this is in "the Law" (the Torah):...and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. (Gen 3:16)

Therefore we read in 1 Cor 11:10: For this cause ought the woman to have power [Gk exousia = authority] on her head because of the angels.

In 1 Cor 11:1-16 the Holy Spirit teaches us why Christian women must cover their heads during corporate worship. The holy angels observe Christians gathered for worship, and report to God whether the church is in submission to Christ or not. Christian men must show their submission to Christ with uncovered heads. Christian women must show their submission to Christ and to their husbands with covered heads, so that their *glory* (their beautiful hair) is hidden in the presence of Christ's glory. So the head covering becomes a symbol of authority and submission to that authority.

Christian women who are totally submitted to God and Christ do cover their heads (and hide their hair) during worship. They also obey God in that they remain silent during worship, and refuse to preach, teach, or usurp authority in the assembly.

@Jun2u @Enoch111 @oldhermit.

Gentlemen, IF you can maintain a Spirit of peace, I would be curious to hear your responses to what I posted in #175, which I will repost below. No one ever gave me a proper response to this post other than to say "I think the translators did a fine job," which is completely ignoring what I wrote rather than actually addressing it. Again, I am asking kindly and respectfully, so please don't resort to ridicule, insults and demeaning responses. I am not trying to generate strife by asking. I would like a genuine dialogue. And I have read everyone else's responses and arguments. I want to see if anyone is willing to address mine without being dismissive.
___________

In every single passage where this topic comes up in the NT, it is not discussing men and women but husbands and wives. The translators do a poor job of communicating this to the modern reader because they don't translate the original properly in the passages in question. The reason is because the Greek words for "men" and "women" are just as often translated "husbands" and "wives." You must look to the context to know which is the correct rendering.

Now watch:

1 Corinthians 14:33-35KJV
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

These verses are not about women, they are about wives. The proper translation should be:

1 Corinthians 14:33-35KJV
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
34 Let your wives keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for wives to speak in the church.

Notice how he says, "but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law." What law? He is referring to Genesis 3:16, which applies specifically to wives, not women. When you ask for someone to show you where the law states no woman can teach a man, you get dead silence.

Watch again:

Titus 2:3-5KJV
3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

Again this in not a passage about women. It is a passage about wives.
Proper translation should be:

Titus 2:3-5KJV
3 The aged (widowed or married) women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
4 That they may teach the young wives to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

That what word of God not be blasphemed? Genesis 3:16.
Watch again:

1 Timothy 2:11-14KJV
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

He was not talking here about women. He was talking about wives, and using the first husband and wife as his example, now relating the entire Genesis story to his argument.
Proper translation should be:

1 Timothy 2:11-14KJV
11 Let the wife learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a wife to teach, nor to usurp authority over her husband, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but his wife being deceived was in the transgression.

Why were wives not allowed to teach their husbands? Because when a man and woman enter into a marriage agreement, they agree to become a reflection of the marriage between Christ and His bride the church, and the bride does not teach Christ anything. A husband must assume the responsibility to become her teacher in the word as a reflection of Christ to His bride ("husbands love your wives, cleansing them with the washing of the water in the word"), and she must assume the responsibility to hear and obey the word of God coming through him as the bride to Christ ("wives obey your husbands"), which means a man assumes an incredible responsibility spiritually when he marries. He will be held accountable to God for teaching her accurately.

Hidden In Him said:

In every single passage where this topic comes up in the NT, it is not discussing men and women but husbands and wives.

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I believe I already responded to this. If you limit Paul's instructions to wives only, you are claiming that single Christian women can VIOLATE what is addressed to wives, and become pastors, elders, preachers, and teachers in the churches. As you can see, this is an ABSURD interpretation of the Bible.

Bearing in mind that God's norm for women is to be married and raise children ["she shall be saved (sanctified) in childbearing"], and that adult single Christian women would be a very small minority (Paul encouraged the younger widows to marry and have children), you should be able to discern that what applies to wives applies also to POTENTIAL WIVES. And that should be an end to this notion.

Ac28 said:

Women in Acts, with the gifts of the Spirit, could prophesy. However, those gifts were done away with in Acts 28:28. They surely don't exist today, except in a fake, non-Biblical fashion. No one, with no exception, can prophesy today, no matter what anyone says. The gifts are long gone. We are the only people to have the complete Bible, which God has preserved. That's the only communication we'll get from God while alive and the only communication we'll ever need, during our life on earth.

That is the absolute worst rendition of 2Tim 2:15 I've ever seen. The meaning of "rightly divide" is, "make a straight cut", "correctly cut", or "correctly dissect". That's it, period. A translation that does not "CUT" God's Word of Truth is totally meaningless. Many of these modern Bibles seem to hate the idea of CUTTING God's Word, so they use those fake wimpy, milky, meaningless phrases instead. The only real meaning is to CUT CORRECTLY, not to "correctly explain" or "handle aright" or "rightly handling", or any other fake meaning. Like the Catholics, you're very good at fitting obscure definitions to meet your own private interpretations (2Pe 1:20).

That's the 4th thing you've been proven wronThat puts you in the same class as every mainstream, know-nothing denominational preacher. g on. Since it's obvious you don't obey 2 Tim 2:15 and Correctly CUT God's word, that is the biggest 5th error you could possibly make. Without right division, it is impossible that any more than about 50% of your NT knowledge is correct. With right division, you could double your NT knowledge overnight, simply by repenting and believing the Bible. You really should contact David Tavender and his group in NSW at Spiritual Blessings They are expert right dividers and could help you truly understand the Bible.

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Ac,

Again you have not addressed the matters I raised. You are off and running with your cessationist imposition:


As for your insulting assessment of my post:


You gave zero support for where you obtained that information. When you provide no support, it amounts to your opinion. What you stated may be correct, but I'm not going to accept it because you stated it. From where did you get the information that the word means 'make a straight cut'? Please back up your statements with evidence from the Greek lexicons and word studies.

The ESV translates the last phrase of 2 Tim 2:15 as 'rightly handling the word of truth'. How is that different from the NLT's, 'correctly explains the word of truth'. They are synonymous statements. Your labelling them as 'That is the absolute worst rendition of 2 Tim 2:15 I've ever seen' is inflammatory.

Now tell me what the word translated as 'rightly handling' or 'correctly explains' means, according to the Greek scholars in Arndt & Gingrich's Lexicon and The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament.

I hope the moderators notice your flaming and deal with your approach to me on this forum.

I am reporting your goading of me and insulting language towards me.

Oz

Enoch111 said:

ABSURD... you should be able to discern...

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Enoch, you don't appear to be able to respond without being insulting. I would have liked to respond to your post, but unfortunately I can't entertain the divisive spirit you post in. I will leave it to one of the others I reached out to see if they can discuss things in the Spirit of Christ.

Blessings.

Ac28 said:

From what you've displayed on this forum, with all your proven errors, your "Biblical Scholarship" seems to have missed the mark of the most important thing - Truth!

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Ac28,

Your reply here didn't answer my post to which you responded.

You are off and running, insulting me again. Do you know what flaming a poster means?




When you don't deal with my topic in your reply and then choose the topic about which you want to speak, you have committed a red herring logical fallacy.

You introduced an irrelevant topic that did not relate to my post. This is fallacious reasoning and we can't have a logical discussion when you do this.

Oz

OzSpen said:

Ac28,

Your reply here didn't answer my post to which you responded.

You are off and running, insulting me again. Do you know what flaming a poster means?

When you don't deal with my topic in your reply and then choose the topic about which you want to speak, you have committed a red herring logical fallacy.

You introduced an irrelevant topic that did not relate to my post. This is fallacious reasoning and we can't have a logical discussion when you do this.

Oz

Click to expand...

Copy and Paste - no changes made

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
rightly divide.
From a compound of orthos and the base of tomoteros, to make a straight cut, i.e. (figuratively) to dissect (expound) correctly (the divine message) -- rightly divide.

There's no doubt in my mind that, more than anyone else I've seen on this forum, you're a false teacher. It's like nothing you ever say is true, when examined closely. Your confident arrogance surely tends to sway those babes who don't know that what you say is full of errors. That HUGE error you made about the "gathering unto his people" thing, making the ABSURD statement that that meant there is consciousness when you're dead convinced me that you are extremely dangerous, even though I'm sure you don't realize what you're doing.

Why do you keep responding to me, if I upset you so much? My responses have been responses to your responces, in the main.

I've been insulted on this forum many times, in a manner far times worse than anything I've ever said to you. I've been called satanic and a heretic. Yet, i was never such a weakling that I complained to management. I really don't care what anyone thinks of what I say, because I'm positive that what I say is truth. Your complaining about me is a signal that you don't trust what you're preaching and fear my interference might show what you truly are, in the dark.

I pray you've stopped teaching those seniors the untruths that, when they die, they will be conscious with their people. That's nearly as bad as believing that, when you die, you immediately go to heaven.

Ac28 said:

In my opinion, EW Bullinger was the greatest "Bible Scholar" ever. His 1000 page, "Figures of Speech in the Bible" and his "Critical Lexicon and Concordance of the NT", are without equal.

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I consider you have a lot more Bible scholars to read. Have you read everything in the Arndt and Gingrich Lexicon?

What about the 10 vols of Greek word studies edited by Kittel & Friedrich, Theological Dictionary of the New Testament? Have you read all of these to discern if Bullinger is the greatest Bible scholar?

After you've read all of those, then you'll be able to compare them with the work of ultradispensationalist E W Bullinger.

Many students of God's word consider Bullinger's ultradispensationalism had elements of error in it. See 'Anglo-Catholic errors of E W Bullinger'.

Oz

Hidden In Him said:

@Jun2u @Enoch111 @oldhermit.

Gentlemen, IF you can maintain a Spirit of peace, I would be curious to hear your responses to what I posted in #175, which I will repost below. No one ever gave me a proper response to this post other than to say "I think the translators did a fine job," which is completely ignoring what I wrote rather than actually addressing it. Again, I am asking kindly and respectfully, so please don't resort to ridicule, insults and demeaning responses. I am not trying to generate strife by asking. I would like a genuine dialogue. And I have read everyone else's responses and arguments. I want to see if anyone is willing to address mine without being dismissive.
___________

In every single passage where this topic comes up in the NT, it is not discussing men and women but husbands and wives. The translators do a poor job of communicating this to the modern reader because they don't translate the original properly in the passages in question. The reason is because the Greek words for "men" and "women" are just as often translated "husbands" and "wives." You must look to the context to know which is the correct rendering.

Now watch:

1 Corinthians 14:33-35KJV
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

These verses are not about women, they are about wives. The proper translation should be:

1 Corinthians 14:33-35KJV
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
34 Let your wives keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for wives to speak in the church.

Notice how he says, "but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law." What law? He is referring to Genesis 3:16, which applies specifically to wives, not women. When you ask for someone to show you where the law states no woman can teach a man, you get dead silence.

Watch again:

Titus 2:3-5KJV
3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

Again this in not a passage about women. It is a passage about wives.
Proper translation should be:

Titus 2:3-5KJV
3 The aged (widowed or married) women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
4 That they may teach the young wives to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

That what word of God not be blasphemed? Genesis 3:16.
Watch again:

1 Timothy 2:11-14KJV
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

He was not talking here about women. He was talking about wives, and using the first husband and wife as his example, now relating the entire Genesis story to his argument.
Proper translation should be:

1 Timothy 2:11-14KJV
11 Let the wife learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a wife to teach, nor to usurp authority over her husband, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but his wife being deceived was in the transgression.

Why were wives not allowed to teach their husbands? Because when a man and woman enter into a marriage agreement, they agree to become a reflection of the marriage between Christ and His bride the church, and the bride does not teach Christ anything. A husband must assume the responsibility to become her teacher in the word as a reflection of Christ to His bride ("husbands love your wives, cleansing them with the washing of the water in the word"), and she must assume the responsibility to hear and obey the word of God coming through him as the bride to Christ ("wives obey your husbands"), which means a man assumes an incredible responsibility spiritually when he marries. He will be held accountable to God for teaching her accurately.

Click to expand...

Several have disagreed with your suggestion that Paul's writings apply to wives only.

Pastors And Deacons Are To Be Married men.

Women are to keep silent in the church, they are not to have authority over men.

Pastor's and Deacon's are to be married men, women are to keep silent in the Church.

1 Timothy 3:1-13KJV
3 This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.
11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
13 For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

A woman is to remain silent in the Church service, at no time within the Church does a woman exercise authority over the man.

1 Timothy 2:11-14KJV
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

1 Corinthians 14:33-35KJV
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

A woman is to obey and love her husband and family, be a home maker, simple.

Titus 2:3-5KJV
3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

In Love!

Truth7t7 said:

A woman is to remain silent in the Church service, at no time within the Church does a woman exercise authority over the man.

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Of what kind of authority is a woman forbidden to make over a man?

Truth7t7 said:

Several have disagreed with your suggestion that Paul's writings apply to wives only.

Pastors And Deacons Are To Be Married men.

Women are to keep silent in the church, they are not to have authority over men.

Pastor's and Deacon's are to be married men, women are to keep silent in the Church.

1 Timothy 3:1-13KJV
3 This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.
11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
13 For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

A woman is to remain silent in the Church service, at no time within the Church does a woman exercise authority over the man.

1 Timothy 2:11-14KJV
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

1 Corinthians 14:33-35KJV
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

A woman is to obey and love her husband and family, be a home maker, simple.

Titus 2:3-5KJV
3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

In Love!

Click to expand...

Ha Ha! Now this was pretty good, LoL. You have a better sense of humor than I gave you credit for.

Thanks for the good-hearted response, and for "addressing it" so thoroughly once more. I needed a good laugh. Ha!

OzSpen said:

I consider you have a lot more Bible scholars to read. Have you read everything in the Arndt and Gingrich Lexicon?

What about the 10 vols of Greek word studies edited by Kittel & Friedrich, Theological Dictionary of the New Testament? Have you read all of these to discern if Bullinger is the greatest Bible scholar?

After you've read all of those, then you'll be able to compare them with the work of ultradispensationalist E W Bullinger.

This writer spoke of 'Anglo-Catholic errors of E W Bullinger'.

Many students of God's word consider Bullinger's ultradispensationalism had elements of error in it. See 'Anglo-Catholic errors of E W Bullinger'.

Oz

Click to expand...

I'm 78 and, although I have no ills, I know my time is short. I have zero interest in anything any of those self-elevated people think they have to offer and reading them would be a total waste of my time. I've been there, somewhat, and done that. The worst thing about them is none of them even attempt to obey God's Word and Correctly Cut His Word of Truth. Therefore, it's a given that about 50% of what they think they know about the NT is incorrect. Therefore, nothing they could say to me would benefit me in the slightest. Not when I know a lot more about what the NT is all about than they do, but only because I Obey what God says in 2Tim 2:15, and they don't. They're the type that would translate correctly cutting as rightly handling or something other as equally inane.

There are bible believers and bible scholars and never the twain shall meet. I've never seen a Bible scholar that rightly divided or made a straight cut through God's word and I would wager that no one you mentioned or have ever read does so. That automatically places them in a know-nothing, non Bible believing position, especially with the NT. Bullinger obeyed God and tried to correctly cut His Word, but he didn't discover the absolute unfailing truth of real dispensationalism until 3 or 4 years before he died.

Calling Bullinger an ultradispensationalist only displays the ignorance of the author that says that. I have read most of the anti-dispensationalism books. None of those authors that despise dispensationalism have the foggiest idea of what dispensationalism is about. If they did, they would reaaize that it's the pinnacle of Bible understanding, quickly repent, and become avid dispensationalists. The only people in the world that Rightly divide or Correctly cut God's Word are the dispensationalists. In fact, the practical definition of a dispensationalist is a person who attempts to obey God and correctly cut His word. Therefore, the dispensationalists that do cut His Word correctly, are the only Christians that are approved unto God and have no need to feel ashamed, according to 2Tim 2:15. It's impossible to be a dispensationalist without right division and it's impossible to understand the NT without right division. Therefore, it's impossible to understand the NT unless you's a dispensationalist.

Hidden In Him said:

Enoch, you don't appear to be able to respond without being insulting.

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It was not my intention to be insulting in any way. It is you who insisted that only WIVES were being addressed in all the Scriptures pertaining to women. Which would imply that there was a different set of rules for single Christian women. And that would indeed be absurd.

Ac28 said:

Copy and Paste - no changes made

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
rightly divide.
From a compound of orthos and the base of tomoteros, to make a straight cut, i.e. (figuratively) to dissect (expound) correctly (the divine message) -- rightly divide.

Click to expand...

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance is hardly the best way to find the meaning of a Greek word. It's a rather compact means for the laity.

The word is ὀρθοτομοῦντα (orthotomounta) = masculine, singular, accusative case, present tense participle of orthotomeō. So, whatever its meaning it indicates that it is to be doing it continuously (meaning of present tense). So what is this person doing?

Kittel & Friedrich's Theological Dictionary of the New Testament gives the meaning of orthotomeō = 'correctly handling' (ESV) = correctly explains (NLT) as,


That's the assessment of the more extensive examinations of the word.
Arndt & Gingrich's Lexicon states it 'perhaps mean(s) guide the word of truth along a straight path (like a road that does straight to its goal), without being turned aside by wordy debates or impious talk 2 Ti 2:15. Other meanings include 'teach the word aright, expound it soundly, shape rightly, and preach fearlessly' (Arndt & Gingrich 1957:584).

There's no doubt in my mind that, more than anyone else I've seen on this forum, you're a false teacher. It's like nothing you ever say is true, when examined closely. Your confident arrogance surely tends to sway those babes who don't know that what you say is full of errors. That HUGE error you made about the "gathering unto his people" thing, making the ABSURD statement that that meant there is consciousness when you're dead convinced me that you are extremely dangerous, even though I'm sure you don't realize what you're doing.

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• So I'm a 'false teacher' because my exegesis doesn't agree with yours?
• 'nothing you ever say is true'. Hyperbole doesn't work with me and I hope the moderators are onto that one.
• 'Your confident arrogance'. Whoa! Is this the pot calling the kettle black?

• 'what you say is full of error'. Hyperbole again and insulting;
• I'm dangerous because I examine the infallible Scriptures and try to tell what the Scriptures say.

Why do you keep responding to me, if I upset you so much? My responses have been responses to your responces (sic), in the main.

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I want to expose your lies about me.

Your complaining about me is a signal that you don't trust what you're preaching and fear my interference might show what you truly are, in the dark.

Click to expand...

In Australia, we call that bunkum.

I pray you've stopped teaching those seniors the untruths that, when they die, they will be conscious with their people. That's nearly as bad as believing that, when you die, you immediately go to heaven.

Click to expand...

I teach the truth that when Christians die:

• 'Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. (2 Cor 5:8 ESV).
• Like the thief on the cross, one minute after their last breath, Christians will be: '“Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise” (Lk 23:43 ESV).

May you have a good day. Please quit lying about me and my theology.

Oz

Ac28 said:

There are bible believers and bible scholars and never the twain shall meet. I've never seen a Bible scholar that rightly divided or made a straight cut through God's word and I would wager that no one you mentioned or have ever read does so.

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This is your opinion.

• The late Dr Leon Morris was an in-depth Bible scholar but a delightful Christian;
• Dr D A Carson is an exegetical scholar who writes commentaries but preaches fine evangelical sermons and conducts evangelistic meetings on university campuses.
• F F Bruce was God's special research man at the University of Manchester, but a special Christian;
• etc

I think you're out of your depth with your suggestions and opinions here.

Oz

Enoch111 said:

It was not my intention to be insulting in any way.

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Then why do you do so, regularly?

Enoch111 said:

It is you who insisted that only WIVES were being addressed in all the Scriptures pertaining to women.

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You misrepresent my position: Wives are being referred to in the passages at hand, something which you still have not addressed.

Enoch111 said:

And that would indeed be absurd

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Of course it will seem absurd when you misrepresent it! Ha! Why is it that you always wish to insult it rather than address it? And don't bother telling me "I have," because no one's buying that, Mr. All you've done so far is insult it and misrepresent it.

Come on, Enoch. I'm giving you every chance in the world to discuss this thing sensibly. Discuss the passages with me. Please.

OzSpen said:

This is your opinion.

• The late Dr Leon Morris was an in-depth Bible scholar but a delightful Christian;
• Dr D A Carson is an exegetical scholar who writes commentaries but preaches fine evangelical sermons and conducts evangelistic meetings on university campuses.
• F F Bruce was God's special research man at the University of Manchester, but a special Christian;
• etc

I think you're out of your depth with your suggestions and opinions here.

Oz

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You are the last person I would ever choose as a mentor in any way, whatsoever. I have zero trust in anything you say, after the GIANT errors you displaed and got caught on. Your non-Biblical ideas about death are nonsensical, from any sane viewpoint.

This is my last post to you. Too boring and I can't take any more gobbledy-gook.


You Don't Obey 2Tim 2:15 and Rightly Divide God's Word if You Believe Any of These Things

1- The Church has replaced Israel
2- The entire Bible is written directly TO us.
3- The Gospel taught by Jesus Christ takes precedent over everything else
4- The Great Commission is the marching order for the Church today
5- To be saved, we must be born again
6- The present day Church started with Christ's earthly ministry
7- The present day Church started at Pentecost, in Acts 2
8- True Israel is the Church
9- Christ's earthly ministry was to both Jews and Gentiles
10- Israel are still God's chosen people, during this 2000 year period we're now in.
11- The Kingdom of Heaven is the hope of the Church.
12- The New Covenant is in effect for the Gentile Church today
13- The Sermon on the Mount applies to us today.
14- The Lord's Prayer applies to us today.
15- The Lord's Supper applies to us today
16- Water Baptism applies to us today.
17- The Gifts of the Spirit, as given in Acts 2, are still applicable today
18- The 12 apostles witnessed daily to both Jews and Gentiles
19- The purpose of the Acts period was to build the Church
20- Today's Gentile Church will be taken up in the rapture.
21- Christ came to build a Church
22- We must obey the 10 Commandments
23- Abraham is the father of us all
24- The church today will reside in the New Jerusalem
25- The Church today is the Bride
26- We must go to the Jew First
27- We must obey the 4 ordinances given to Gentiles in Acts 15
28- Christ could return at any moment
29- We saved Gentiles are Grafted into Israel
30- The Main Purpose of Acts was to build the church
In other words, everything GOOD that was, at the time, given to only Israel, from Gen 12 thru Acts 28, and was NEVER passed on to Gentiles, Christians, as a whole, steal from Israel. Anything bad, like the Judgements against Israel and the Tribulation, they do everything to avoid and want no part of. Surely God is too smart to let them get away with that brazen dishonesty.

Do you believe any of those things in the list? If you do, the chances are slim to none that you'll ever go to Heaven. Why? Because if you do believe those things are for you, it's impossible for you to believe the only truths for today, found ONLY in Paul's 7 post-Acts books, since the 2 are drastically different. Why would God put you in Heaven, when you believe your calling is to the Kingdom on earth and/or the New Jerusalem, which certainly isn't Heaven?

Dispensationalism and Right Division
Anyone that is against dispensationalism is automatically against right division, 2Tim 2:15. Why? Because the basis of dispensationalism is right division and dispensationalists are the only people on the planet that rightly divide (correctly cut) God's Word of Truth.

There are 3 main types of dispensationalism- Acts 2, Acts 9, and Acts 28. The latter 2 are called hyper or ultra dispensationalists by their unknowledgeable detractors. All 3 cut and divide. The names of the 3 are based on the point in scripture where the CUT is made. The first 2 are not correctly cut because Israel is still active both before and after the cut. The only place in the Bible that, after cutting, is 100% Israel on one side of the cut and 100% Gentiles on the other side of the cut, is Acts 28:28.

After, cutting (in your mind), you divide the 2 pieces. Nothing given to, or applied to Israel, before the cut, applies to you, EVER. Everything after the cut CAN apply to you, but only if you SEE and believe it and eliminate all the non-applicable Jewish stuff from your personal doctrine (of things you THINK belong to you). This might be called Super Extreme Dispensationalism, but it's the ONLY possible way to satisfy 2Tim 2:15 and become approved unto God.

Coincidentally, Acts 28:28 is when Israel was set aside and when the Gentile Church of today started. This unique church is covered ONLY in Paul's 7 After-Acts books. The other 59 books, which are all-Israel, contain NOTHING at all about this all-Gentile church, since EVERYTHING about it was hid in God from all ages and generations as a Mystery (secret) until Paul revealed it after the very end of Acts - Col 1:26.

Once you rightly divide and see the truth that the only possible afterlife for you as a Gentile under Pure Grace, is found only on Paul's 7 After-Acts books, you will find that the most difficult part is to eliminate all those Israel-only things, some of which are in the list, none of which you could EVER hope to possess, so you can concentrate on the real truth. You've all been brainwashed, folks, mainly by the nearly worthless mainstream churches, all of whom think right division is something you learn in 3rd grade math. They are the culprits. They lie to you almost every time they open their mouth. The frightening part is they believe what they're saying, since they went through the same heretical system that you're stuck in. The ONLY good part is that most are good at getting you saved but, after that, they just waste your time. It took me 10 years to completely remove all of that Jewish stuff I thought was mine, but wasn't, from my head.

OzSpen said:

I hope the moderators notice your flaming and deal with your approach to me on this forum.

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So, you disagree with him on scriptures and other issues. And you call it flaming.
So, you feel the need to get him kicked out of the forum.
(Earlier you said you were not going to post on this issue anymore.)

Listen, OzSpen, I don't care how educated you are.
I'm from the Netherlands, where people in the Dutch Reformed Church need to finish a University Course Theology in order to be called as a pastor/preacher.
So, they come out of University and mock the Gifts of the Holy Spirit and they allow homosexuals to be pastors.
So much for that! It takes a full blown Theologian to mess up the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
I have been attending a home church at a remote ranch where the pastor is an elementary school educated rancher filled with the Holy Spirit.
I see miracles happening and people coming to Christ.
So, spare me your "educational" lectures.
It's the Holy Spirit revealing things to the Christian and without the Baptism with the Holy Spirit it simple is not going to work.
Jesus commanded people to wait for the Power from upon high. Not the power from university with all the other junk attached to it.

Triumph1300 said:

So, you disagree with him on scriptures and other issues. And you call it flaming.
So, you feel the need to get him kicked out of the forum.

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Actually, Triumph, I agree with Oz on this one. It is more than simply disagreeing with others. Ac28 flames and goads people on this forum incessantly. Is it my approach to report him, no, but I support the position of those who do, especially for Ac28's sake. If he's not long from meeting his Maker as he says, someone should be warning him that his judgment will not be a pleasant one if he continues engaging in incessant sin like he does. At the very best, his works are going to burn in the fire.

This post will set him off if he reads it, but nevertheless it needs to be said. If no one else supports Oz on his contention that Ac28 should be disciplined in some way, shape or form for his behavior, I do. But I personally don't regard such discipline as being restricted to merely whatever the moderators do.

Do I wish any ill-will on Ac28? No, none whatsoever. And this is precisely why I think something needs to be done.

Blessings,
Hidden In Him

Well, let's put it this way.
If he's kicked off I can certainly think about 2 more that should be kicked of this forum.