Infant vs Adult Baptism !

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Reggie Belafonte

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It was way different back then !!!!! In my time !

Went to mass , 6 day's a week and 5 of them were all in Latin !
I do not understand or speak that........... So we did not learn any thing at mass.
Sunday the priest spoke about 10 min. in English in the middle of mass.

This is back in the 1940's and 1950's.....
And to belong to the church you had to get Baptized....... and that was as
a baby !
They did not have Bible study and to teach you to comprehend what the Latin is truly saying ? or your Mum and Dad did not inform you ?
 

BreadOfLife

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Well, if you know any old folks that are still in the Catholic Church, maybe they need
to be talked to ?????
My parents brought me up this way....... and I and my husband both did the same.
Catholic Church, no bible [ again this is from the 40's and 50's ] I'm not Catholic now.
We never used a bible.... and never had to. Just the prayer book......

Now we know we do not even have to be Baptized.....
That's NOT what Jesus says . . .

Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is BAPTIZED will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Why would you say that it is NOT necessary??
 

epostle1

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  1. Luther (as well as some “high” Anglicans and Methodists) held to (infant) baptismal regeneration,
  2. Calvin to symbolic infant baptism.
  3. Then there is the position of Baptists and some others: adult “believers” symbolic baptism.
  4. Yet others believe in adult baptismal regeneration (e.g., Disciples of Christ and Church[es] of Christ).
  5. A fifth position is denying the necessity of baptism altogether (even though it is clearly a command in the New Testament). This is held by Quakers and The Salvation Army.
  6. A 6th position is baptism with metaphorical water
Some Protestants claim that Scripture is
1) always clear in matters of salvation (“perspicuous”) and that
2) it is the only infallible and final authority in theological matters (sola Scriptura).


BaptismalFont.jpg

Baptismal font from the 6th century (Tunisia)

John 3:5 and Titus 3:5: Proofs for Baptismal Regeneration?
 

JesusIsFaithful

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imho jnfant baptism makes more sense now than adult baptism considering the requirement and qualification is repent and/or believe - twinc

Is this sarcasm in trying to make a point that infant baptism is not Biblical since there is no way an infant can meet the requirement to repent & believe?

If parents are taking responsibility in raising that child into the christian faith, then they should sing christian songs about Jesus in lullabies and feel free to share their faith and belief and why they believe to their infant as the infant is raised by them. As it is, most parents stop at infant baptism and let the church do the rest. NOT GOOD. Vanity in the outward religious appearance of parents having infant baptism should be obvious. It does nothing.
 

epostle1

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Is this sarcasm in trying to make a point that infant baptism is not Biblical since there is no way an infant can meet the requirement to repent & believe?
Repenting and believing is normative for adults, but nowhere in scripture is it always a requirement. "household" means everybody living under the new Christian's house, not everybody is required to repent and believe. Babies and children are part of the household, they are not cattle.
If parents are taking responsibility in raising that child into the christian faith, then they should sing christian songs about Jesus in lullabies and feel free to share their faith and belief and why they believe to their infant as the infant is raised by them. As it is, most parents stop at infant baptism and let the church do the rest. NOT GOOD. Vanity in the outward religious appearance of parents having infant baptism should be obvious. It does nothing.
This hostility towards Christian families is uncalled for. First, parents are required to take baptismal classes so they understand the meaning of the vows they take on behalf of the infant. Second, the parents are the PRIMARY educators on matters of faith and morals, the church and schools are SECONDARY. What is so scary about being a parent is that children (generally) assimilate the faith based on the daily living of the parents, not so much by indoctrination at Sunday school.

Gen. 17:12, Lev. 12:3 – these texts show the circumcision of eight-day old babies as the way of entering into the Old Covenant. Explain how an eight-day old baby boy is required to repent and believe before entering the Covenant.

Col 2:11-12 – however, baptism is the new “circumcision” for all people of the New Covenant. Therefore, baptism is for babies as well as adults. God did not make His new Covenant narrower than the old Covenant. To the contrary, He made it wider, for both Jews and Gentiles, infants and adults.

Explain why baptism of most non-Catholic faith traditions are considered valid by the Catholic Church.

We are all conceived with Original Sin, as scripture clearly states. It is acquired without a conscious choice, therefore it can be removed without a conscious choice. That's why infant baptism has nothing to do with the requirement of "repent and believe", and that is why baptism is salvific.

John 3:3,5 – Jesus says, “Truly, truly, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.”
Jesus does not say "truly, truly, unless one is old enough to repent and believe, and born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.”
Jesus does not say "unless one is born again at an alter call"
Jesus does not say "unless one is born again by reciting the sinners prayer"
Jesus does not say "unless one is born again by accepting me as their personal savior."
NO.
These things are valuable, but they are not being "born again" no matter what the born-again crowd may think.

It's true that some parents who take their babies for baptism are bad examples, but I know of no church community with a faith police department. You judge wrecklessly.
 
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JesusIsFaithful

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Repenting and believing is normative for adults, but nowhere in scripture is it always a requirement. "household" means everybody living under the new Christian's house, not everybody is required to repent and believe. Babies and children are part of the household, they are not cattle.

Repenting from unbelief to believe in Him is all that is required to be saved.

Repenting from sins while trusting Him as your Good Shepherd to help you run that race is the requirement for abiding in Him as His disciple.

Babies go astray from the womb, but since it is on the Father to draw all men unto the Son ( John 6:44 ), including babies ( Matthew 11:25-27 ), then salvation is by hearing the Word of God in order to believe in Him.

This hostility towards Christian families is uncalled for. First, parents are required to take baptismal classes so they understand the meaning of the vows they take on behalf of the infant.

Vows? Matthew 5:33-37 KJV only & James 4:13-17 explains why it is evil to promise something for tomorrow when it is not in your power to do.

Second, the parents are the PRIMARY educators on matters of faith and morals, the church and schools are SECONDARY. What is so scary about being a parent is that children (generally) assimilate the faith based on the daily living of the parents, not so much by indoctrination at Sunday school.

All right then. What have you done as a parent in raising your child in the word? My point is that parents usually do not do that at all as a practice. More than likely when a crisis arise, then they go to Him, but when the world, schools and their friends are telling them lies and temptations of the world, they are hardly getting enough of the word from Sunday at church to give them roots in His words to abide in the truth & bear fruit.

Gen. 17:12, Lev. 12:3 – these texts show the circumcision of eight-day old babies as the way of entering into the Old Covenant. Explain how an eight-day old baby boy is required to repent and believe before entering the Covenant.

Col 2:11-12 – however, baptism is the new “circumcision” for all people of the New Covenant. Therefore, baptism is for babies as well as adults. God did not make His new Covenant narrower than the old Covenant. To the contrary, He made it wider, for both Jews and Gentiles, infants and adults.

The only baptism that counts under the New Covenant is the promise from the Father at our salvation which is the baptism with the Holy Ghost in the name of Jesus Christ which is gained by hearing the gospel or reading the gospel so they can believe.

Explain why baptism of most non-Catholic faith traditions are considered valid by the Catholic Church.

We are all conceived with Original Sin, as scripture clearly states. It is acquired without a conscious choice, therefore it can be removed without a conscious choice. That's why infant baptism has nothing to do with the requirement of "repent and believe", and that is why baptism is salvific.

John 3:3,5 – Jesus says, “Truly, truly, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.”
Jesus does not say "truly, truly, unless one is old enough to repent and believe, and born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.”
Jesus does not say "unless one is born again at an alter call"
Jesus does not say "unless one is born again by reciting the sinners prayer"
Jesus does not say "unless one is born again by accepting me as their personal savior."
NO.
These things are valuable, but they are not being "born again" no matter what the born-again crowd may think.

It's true that some parents who take their babies for baptism are bad examples, but I know of no church community with a faith police department. You judge wrecklessly.

When people do not have time for extra christian fellowship at church other than on Sunday, then you have to wonder if they ever have time for Bible study and fellowship as a family for parents to raise godly children.

How many members of your church are involved in Freemasonry? Amazing how some men have time for that but no time for fellowship with christian men.

So go ahead. Ask the Lord to discern how your church is doing. Seeing how you have vows for parents in regards to infant baptism, I would have to say that your church is in need of pruning to be more fruitful.

Course, every one seeking Him as their Good Shepherd personally should be trusting Him to prune them by His words when the moment comes. That includes me too.

So I may come off as reckless in judging christian families these days, but Jesus did say how bad it would be in the latter days when faith will be hard to find, and I find the churches are sleeping, brother. Prove me wrong by saying you will alert your church about the vows being placed on parents for infant baptism. And then call for reformation in proving everything with His help by the scripture so that your church may bear more fruit. John 15:1-2

No one is perfect. No church is perfect. When the Lord brings us Home by our faith in Him, we shall be perfect, but let us cast off the works of darkness in redeeming the times and put on Christ so others may see our faith and our hope in Jesus Christ for all things, including raising our families.
 

epostle1

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Repenting from unbelief to believe in Him is all that is required to be saved.
I suppose "you must be born from above with water AND the spirit" is meaningless bible filler and babies are excluded.

Repenting from sins while trusting Him as your Good Shepherd to help you run that race is the requirement for abiding in Him as His disciple.
Agreed, but a baby cannot repent for sins not committed because Original Sin is acquired, not committed.

Babies go astray from the womb, but since it is on the Father to draw all men unto the Son ( John 6:44 ), including babies ( Matthew 11:25-27 ), then salvation is by hearing the Word of God in order to believe in Him.
Agreed. Unbaptized babies who die are commended to the mercy of God.

Vows? Matthew 5:33-37 KJV only & James 4:13-17 explains why it is evil to promise something for tomorrow when it is not in your power to do.
One of the baptismal vows is to renounce satan. Do you have a problem with that? Baptismal Vows | Catholic Answers

All right then. What have you done as a parent in raising your child in the word? My point is that parents usually do not do that at all as a practice. More than likely when a crisis arise, then they go to Him, but when the world, schools and their friends are telling them lies and temptations of the world, they are hardly getting enough of the word from Sunday at church to give them roots in His words to abide in the truth & bear fruit.
You are talking about indoctrination, not assimilation. Did you come from a dysfunctional family?

The only baptism that counts under the New Covenant is the promise from the Father at our salvation which is the baptism with the Holy Ghost in the name of Jesus Christ which is gained by hearing the gospel or reading the gospel so they can believe.
All baptisms count. The Holy Ghost is released due to the elimination of Original Sin. God and sin cannot coexist. Such a release of the Holy Ghost without water baptism is a matter for theologians to figure out. I am not a theologian.

When people do not have time for extra christian fellowship at church other than on Sunday, then you have to wonder if they ever have time for Bible study and fellowship as a family for parents to raise godly children.
That's why living examples at home are more important for children than schools or church.
How many members of your church are involved in Freemasonry? Amazing how some men have time for that but no time for fellowship with christian men.
Catholics who get involved in Freemasonry excommunicate themselves automatically. No paperwork is required. There are lots of opportunities for men's fellowship are not time demanding.
So go ahead. Ask the Lord to discern how your church is doing. Seeing how you have vows for parents in regards to infant baptism, I would have to say that your church is in need of pruning to be more fruitful.
The Pope could use you as an adviser. The phone number for the Vatican switchboard is +39.06.6982. As of 2014, Pope Francis does not have a personal email address, although according to Vatican.com, mail may be sent to the Pope at
His Holiness, Pope Francis PP., 00120
Via del Pellegrino, Citta del Vaticano.
Course, every one seeking Him as their Good Shepherd personally should be trusting Him to prune them by His words when the moment comes. That includes me too.

So I may come off as reckless in judging christian families these days, but Jesus did say how bad it would be in the latter days when faith will be hard to find, and I find the churches are sleeping, brother. Prove me wrong by saying you will alert your church about the vows being placed on parents for infant baptism. And then call for reformation in proving everything with His help by the scripture so that your church may bear more fruit. John 15:1-2
Proving everything with scripture alone is not in scripture.
No one is perfect. No church is perfect. When the Lord brings us Home by our faith in Him, we shall be perfect, but let us cast off the works of darkness in redeeming the times and put on Christ so others may see our faith and our hope in Jesus Christ for all things, including raising our families.
Jesus promised doctrinal fidelity, He did not promise all members be perfect.


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JesusIsFaithful

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I suppose "you must be born from above with water AND the spirit" is meaningless bible filler and babies are excluded.

It is meaningless if you do not keep that in context and thus not keeping to the message given by Jesus

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

It was considered how a Jew being born of the flesh, would enter into the kingdom of God; hence Israel. Jesus referral to the former is His way of referring to the new way a person enters into the kingdom of God. Verse 5 is His deference from one being born of the flesh as in born of water when a woman's water break to give birth in the flesh of that babe entering into the nation of Israel to a different way of being born again which is of the Spirit.

Verse 8 is significant in the context of the message you began in verse 5 because Jesus signified that there is no outward sign as to when a person is born of the Spirit; hence eliminating water baptism as being part of one being born of the Spirit. This is why in Acts 10th chapter, the Gentile believers, after hearing the words of Peter, and believed in Him, had received the promise of the Spirit before water baptism.

Indeed, Paul deferred from water baptism as having any power or part of any one becoming born again.

1 Corinthians 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God......21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

So if you follow that conversation between Nicodemus and Jesus, Nicodemus had asked how one is born again... and Jesus continued to tell him that after He had hung on the cross and had ascended to Heaven, it was by believing in Him.

John 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Is water baptism mentioned here for how one is born again? No. It is an error by believers to misapply His words of verse 5 to think water baptism had any part of it, otherwise verse 8 would be meaningless because we all would know when one was born again, by the act of water baptism.

But naysayers would point to other verses like Mark 16:16.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Note that it is only how one believes not is how they are damned. Water baptism is not mentioned. Naysayers assume water baptism but forget about the baptism with the Holy Ghost that comes automatically to those that come to & believe in Jesus Christ as promised.

Then naysayers go to 1 Peter 3:21.

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Naysayers completely ignored the parenthesis ( ... ) that explained that Peter was not talking about water baptism wherein water is what puts away the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience towards God which is by believing in Him in His resurrection is how one is born again as in baptized with the Holy Ghost.

So you are just reciting what someone in error had taught you, but you should have taken that verse in context of what Jesus was talking about in how He was deferring from the old way in how one was born into the kingdom of God to the new and only way of now being born into the kingdom of God.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Water baptism is an ordinance that a new believer should do, when having opportunity to do so, but it is not a requirement for being born again nor to be saved when the only requirement given by Jesus is by believing in Him. After having believed in Him, they are saved so they can tell others the Good News that Jesus Christ is their Saviour now because they are saved now.

Catholicism takes away the joy of salvation and mislead believers into laboring in unbelief to obtain salvation by the means provided within the Catholic Church BUT they are already saved since they had believed in the Lord Jesus Christ and that God had raised Him from the dead. Believers in Catholicism need to repent and depart from Catholicism is they finally see the truth that they are saved so that their faith may shine apart from the Catholic Church and the works within so that others may see the truth and be set free from laboring in unbelief to obtain salvation when they are already saved. Otherwise, works that deny Him as their Saviour can run the risk of being left behind at the pre great trib rapture event, but they are still His and thus still saved, but like other unrepentant saints, they shall be received after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor in His House.

So water baptism for adults has nothing to do with salvation and infant baptism even less so, because the ordinance for water baptism is a command for the believer himself or herself to do in being water baptized by the church as a public confession of his or her faith in Jesus Christ in joining that community of believers ( the church ). Nothing more than that, but it is noted that even without water baptism, the believer is saved by the power of God by just believing in the Lord Jesus Christ and that God raised Him from the dead. That is the glory of God in salvation; not the church's glory at all.
 

Reggie Belafonte

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It is meaningless if you do not keep that in context and thus not keeping to the message given by Jesus

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

It was considered how a Jew being born of the flesh, would enter into the kingdom of God; hence Israel. Jesus referral to the former is His way of referring to the new way a person enters into the kingdom of God. Verse 5 is His deference from one being born of the flesh as in born of water when a woman's water break to give birth in the flesh of that babe entering into the nation of Israel to a different way of being born again which is of the Spirit.

Verse 8 is significant in the context of the message you began in verse 5 because Jesus signified that there is no outward sign as to when a person is born of the Spirit; hence eliminating water baptism as being part of one being born of the Spirit. This is why in Acts 10th chapter, the Gentile believers, after hearing the words of Peter, and believed in Him, had received the promise of the Spirit before water baptism.

Indeed, Paul deferred from water baptism as having any power or part of any one becoming born again.

1 Corinthians 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God......21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

So if you follow that conversation between Nicodemus and Jesus, Nicodemus had asked how one is born again... and Jesus continued to tell him that after He had hung on the cross and had ascended to Heaven, it was by believing in Him.

John 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Is water baptism mentioned here for how one is born again? No. It is an error by believers to misapply His words of verse 5 to think water baptism had any part of it, otherwise verse 8 would be meaningless because we all would know when one was born again, by the act of water baptism.

But naysayers would point to other verses like Mark 16:16.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Note that it is only how one believes not is how they are damned. Water baptism is not mentioned. Naysayers assume water baptism but forget about the baptism with the Holy Ghost that comes automatically to those that come to & believe in Jesus Christ as promised.

Then naysayers go to 1 Peter 3:21.

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Naysayers completely ignored the parenthesis ( ... ) that explained that Peter was not talking about water baptism wherein water is what puts away the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience towards God which is by believing in Him in His resurrection is how one is born again as in baptized with the Holy Ghost.

So you are just reciting what someone in error had taught you, but you should have taken that verse in context of what Jesus was talking about in how He was deferring from the old way in how one was born into the kingdom of God to the new and only way of now being born into the kingdom of God.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Water baptism is an ordinance that a new believer should do, when having opportunity to do so, but it is not a requirement for being born again nor to be saved when the only requirement given by Jesus is by believing in Him. After having believed in Him, they are saved so they can tell others the Good News that Jesus Christ is their Saviour now because they are saved now.

Catholicism takes away the joy of salvation and mislead believers into laboring in unbelief to obtain salvation by the means provided within the Catholic Church BUT they are already saved since they had believed in the Lord Jesus Christ and that God had raised Him from the dead. Believers in Catholicism need to repent and depart from Catholicism is they finally see the truth that they are saved so that their faith may shine apart from the Catholic Church and the works within so that others may see the truth and be set free from laboring in unbelief to obtain salvation when they are already saved. Otherwise, works that deny Him as their Saviour can run the risk of being left behind at the pre great trib rapture event, but they are still His and thus still saved, but like other unrepentant saints, they shall be received after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor in His House.

So water baptism for adults has nothing to do with salvation and infant baptism even less so, because the ordinance for water baptism is a command for the believer himself or herself to do in being water baptized by the church as a public confession of his or her faith in Jesus Christ in joining that community of believers ( the church ). Nothing more than that, but it is noted that even without water baptism, the believer is saved by the power of God by just believing in the Lord Jesus Christ and that God raised Him from the dead. That is the glory of God in salvation; not the church's glory at all.
The Gentile believers who believed in Peters words ? it's the same with Jews as well you know.

The Gentiles who believed are not born again in fact just because they believed.

All must be Water Baptised first, them Gentiles would of been water baptised directly if they believed, the fact is that no one gets Born Again ever before water Baptism.

Water Baptism is about entering in to the flock and the hope of being Born again of the Holy Spirit.
Now Paul was saying of others who baptises in their own name, that was what he was on about, but he was not sent to Water Baptise himself because of who he is.
Paul is Born Again, so he is above Water Baptism in his out look but he is not condemning Water Baptism at all.

One is never Born Again because you believe, you are not Born Again until you receive the Holy Spirit, it's more than just faith and it's a gift and when you realise this gift you will pick it up and cherish it. it is not a one off thing.
I have had idiots claiming such rubbish as if they were saving people, etc I have saved x amount of people they tell me, I say no man can save another, one can lead another in the hope but not save anyone, that's to do with Jesus doing only.

I believed in Jesus from as young as I can remember and grew up with strong belief as anyone I ever knew, but when I was Born Again that was very much some what like Paul, I was blown away, I was cut deeply truly knowing who we were and at the same time grateful to know our Lord Jesus Christ personally.
 

JesusIsFaithful

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The Gentile believers who believed in Peters words ? it's the same with Jews as well you know.

The Gentiles who believed are not born again in fact just because they believed.

All must be Water Baptised first, them Gentiles would of been water baptised directly if they believed, the fact is that no one gets Born Again ever before water Baptism.

Brother, please read the event I was referring to.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. 44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

They had received the promise of the Holy Ghost way before water baptism.

Water Baptism is about entering in to the flock and the hope of being Born again of the Holy Spirit.

Then why did Paul not water baptize potential converts first, but instead declared that it is by the preaching of the cross and those believing is how they are saved?

Now Paul was saying of others who baptises in their own name, that was what he was on about, but he was not sent to Water Baptise himself because of who he is.
Paul is Born Again, so he is above Water Baptism in his out look but he is not condemning Water Baptism at all.

And yet you emphasize that one has to be water baptized first and hope to be born again of the Holy Spirit, thus negating what Paul said of the pwer of God in salvation was by those believing in the preaching of the cross.

One is never Born Again because you believe,

Acts 10:43-48 disagrees with you.

you are not Born Again until you receive the Holy Spirit, it's more than just faith and it's a gift and when you realise this gift you will pick it up and cherish it. it is not a one off thing.

2 Thessalonians 2:13-15 & 1 Corinthians 12:13 & Ephesians 4:4-6 pretty much declare that the receiving of the Holy Spirit at our salvation is a one time thing that cannot be repeated because you can never lose your seal of adoption; Ephesians 4:30. Indeed, it is when they tell you that you can receive the Holy Spirit again and again and again is when 2 Corinthians 11:3-4 warns you that is NOT the Holy Spirit at all.

I have had idiots claiming such rubbish as if they were saving people, etc I have saved x amount of people they tell me, I say no man can save another, one can lead another in the hope but not save anyone, that's to do with Jesus doing only.

Correct, brother, but in addressing their error, it would be best not to call them as idiots. They would be more open to correction done in Christ's love. We all prophesy in part and know in part, and yet His love is the greatest fruit to have in sharing with others.

I believed in Jesus from as young as I can remember and grew up with strong belief as anyone I ever knew, but when I was Born Again that was very much some what like Paul, I was blown away, I was cut deeply truly knowing who we were and at the same time grateful to know our Lord Jesus Christ personally.

So basically, you are ascribing to the apostate phenomenon where many believers today are going astray by. I do not doubt your supernatural experience, but that was not the Holy Spirit because you were saved since you had first believed in Him hence you had received Him when you were young.

Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. 15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,

What you had experienced had been experienced by many others as separate from the time they had believed in Him as some will change their testimony to when they were saved to that moment when they had that supernatural encounter... and some even spoke in a supernatural tongue, but ignoring the fact that it never comes with interpretation because it is just gibberish like the supernatural tongue as found in the world before Pentecost ( Isaiah 8:19 ) for why believers are not to believe every spirit but test them in 1 John 4:1-6 les they speak as the world speaks by that spirit of error in babbling nonsense as some do. Not all the time, but in most movements of the "Spirit" which is not really the Holy Spirit.

In most movements of the "Spirit" , believers fall down and there will be chaos and confusion but that is not the Holy Spirit at all.

You had been saved when you were young and had received the Spirit by faith in Jesus Christ... not by sight of signs and lying wonders.

The fact that you took your experience and pretty much telling every believer here that they are not born again simply by believing in Him until they have a supernatural encounter with what you believed was the Holy Spirit later on in life as when you were saved, is what most tongue speakers today try to avoid saying when they believe tongues can be used as a prayer language from the Holy Spirit for why it cannot be interpreted. Course, some will say it is for self edification and some other benefits, but they do so by ignoring Paul's words in 1 Corinthians 14th chapter that unless Paul has that tongue interpreted by someone else, it will be unfruitful to himself as the tongue speaker, thus signifying that tongues is never a stand alone gift for why it will always comes with interpretation or it is not of Him at all.

And since that kind of tongue which is gibberish nonsense is associated with that supernatural phenomenon, wherein believers are seduced into seeking to receive the Holy Spirit apart from salvation or in your case.. for salvation...but in your case by water baptism, I would say you and them are missing what Jesus said about how one is born again in John 3rd chapter.

John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

That means not by water baptism nor by the sign of tongues are believers to look for those proof of when they are born again. So naturally, Nicodemus had asked the question below.

9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

Jesus answered when and how one will be born again.

John 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

So after His death and His ascension to Heaven is when the born again of the Spirit was to take place for salvation and by believing in Him is how one is born again of the Spirit.

So preach Jesus Christ & Him crucified for others to believe in Him to be saved; do not preach water baptism as the "hope" of receiving the Holy Spirit at their salvation. God is not limited by water baptism in saving any one. Any one that calls upon the name of the Lord or believes in Him, shall be saved. That is His word and I believe Him to be true.

So go before that throne of grace and ask Him for help in seeing the truth in His words so you can discern that spirit as not the real Holy Spirit at all because He was already in you when you were young the moment you had believed in the Lord Jesus Christ & that God raised Him from the dead.
 

Reggie Belafonte

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One does not preach water baptism, it's just what must be done.

Plenty of Spirits but only one Holy Spirit.

Paul was not about water baptism because that was not the point with him, he is on about the Holy Spirit.
Water baptism is not about the Holy Spirit it's about people who are just a believing community for who can repent of there sins, they are much a like a tribe of Judah= a people of God, but one who has the Holy Spirit is one of Israel= a Servant of God.

No one is truly saved unless you are Born again, but it is not a one time event, it is a journey as long as life, you pick it up and live it, Jesus is the God of the Living and not the Dead ?
The parable of the sower ? well the seed starts and has to grow, but the weeds etc can choke it and make it die, so there you go no one is truly saved from the start, now Paul was a great Jew and bingo he could get the message instantly because God opened his eyes and he lived his life in the Holy Spirit from then on.

Tongues are for unbelievers.

I could of fallen away before I was Born Again I believe just like all the other kids did at our Church. oh they believed but they fell, they have came up to me and said you don't still believe in all that crap do you and I say I don't just believe it I live it.

I was a believer from young but not of unshakable faith in Jesus Christ until I was Born Again, now people try to get me to join the Jews because they claim I am a Jew, now that could of been a tempting thing to do, but I can not do it, because I am Born again and that means Jesus Christ is with me. so how can I fail to understand him ?

One who claims to of saved another by getting to repeat words after them is just an idiot for sure, I have had then try it on me, I have had to say give over clown.

Act 10:23-48 now 47 says ? they got water baptised.
They were not born again but yes the Holy Spirit spoke to them and the did believe, the Holy Spirit can speak to one before water baptism.
The Holy Spirit was understood when being taught at Bible study and all picked it up, but the worldly weeds could strangled that faith.
Oh ye of little faith it is said of, but one can have the faith that can move mountains, so that's two different points on faith, one is not full and the other is full.
Two people in the Bible is said to be full of the Holy Spirit ? not half etc. now that is total faith that can move mountains, St Stephen went and lay the Holy Spirit down on the Jews and they killed him for it and he knew that they would of done before hand when he exposed who they truly were. will you do that or could you do that, will a person who just picked up the word do that ?