Philip James
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And what if you willfully and knowingly disobey Him, after you have been converted?
Rebirth - Salvation and Conversion
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And what if you willfully and knowingly disobey Him, after you have been converted?
God Disciplines His Children
4In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5And have you completely forgotten this word of encouragement that addresses you as a father addresses his son? It says,
“My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline,
and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,
6because the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son.”
7Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children. For what children are not disciplined by their father? 8If you are not disciplined—and everyone undergoes discipline—then you are not legitimate, not true sons and daughters at all. 9Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of spirits and live! 10They disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, in order that we may share in his holiness. 11No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.
12Therefore, strengthen your feeble arms and weak knees. 13“Make level paths for your feet,” so that the lame may not be disabled, but rather healed.
Nancy
Well-Known Member
Excellent posy Nancy. Very insightful. Context and the correct parallels between the Covenants and Israel, and distinguishing the different types symbols woven into them are key: like, salvation, sin, belief, faith, apostacy and other expressions.
You have them down pat here.
You are on fire...I learned a few things from your explanation
Why, thank you...your humility is refreshing! Be assured that the post was pretty much copy/paste from another site...but, I thank you for the compliment none the less
Be mightily blessed!
-nancy
APAK
Many Protestants today realize that Catholics adhere to two of the important "solas" related to salvation sola gratia (by grace alone) and solo Christo (by Christ alone) but fewer are aware that Catholics can also accept the formula of justification sola fide (by faith alone), provided this phrase is properly understood.
The term pistis is used in the Bible in a number of different senses, ranging from
Whether a Catholic rejects the idea of justification by faith alone depends on what sense the term faith is being used in. If it is being used to refer to unformed faith then a Catholic rejects the idea of justification by faith alone (which is the point James is making in James 2:19, as every non-antinomian Evangelical agrees; one is not justified by intellectual belief alone).
However, if the term faith is being used to refer to faith formed by charity then the Catholic accepts the idea of justification by faith alone. In fact, in traditional works of Catholic theology, one regularly encounters the statement that formed faith is justifying faith.
If one has formed faith, one is justified. Period.
A Catholic would thus reject the idea of justification sola fide informi but wholeheartedly embrace the idea of justification sola fide formata. Adding the word formed to clarify the nature of the faith in sola fides renders the doctrine completely acceptable to a Catholic.
read more here:
James Akin
The term pistis is used in the Bible in a number of different senses, ranging from
- intellectual belief (Romans 14:22, 23, James 2:19),
- to assurance (Acts 17:31),
- and even to trustworthiness or reliability (Romans 3:3, Titus 2:10).
Whether a Catholic rejects the idea of justification by faith alone depends on what sense the term faith is being used in. If it is being used to refer to unformed faith then a Catholic rejects the idea of justification by faith alone (which is the point James is making in James 2:19, as every non-antinomian Evangelical agrees; one is not justified by intellectual belief alone).
However, if the term faith is being used to refer to faith formed by charity then the Catholic accepts the idea of justification by faith alone. In fact, in traditional works of Catholic theology, one regularly encounters the statement that formed faith is justifying faith.
If one has formed faith, one is justified. Period.
A Catholic would thus reject the idea of justification sola fide informi but wholeheartedly embrace the idea of justification sola fide formata. Adding the word formed to clarify the nature of the faith in sola fides renders the doctrine completely acceptable to a Catholic.
read more here:
James Akin
Of course we are justified by faith, that is not contested. But faith alone is nowhere to be found in scripture, except James 2:24, where it is refuted. It's true that no amount of works will get us saved, but those are works done apart from the grace of Christ. Faith without works is dead. James 2:24.
Heb. 11:6 – faith is indeed the minimum requirement without which we cannot please God. But this is just the beginning of the process leading toward justification. Faith alone does not justify a person. Justification is only achieved by faith and works, as we see below. Also, this gratuitous gift of faith from God also includes the grace of hope and love the moment the person is justified.
Eph. 2:8-9 – Paul teaches us that faith is the root of justification, and that faith excludes “works of law.” But Paul does not teach that faith excludes other kinds of works. The verse also does not say we are justified by “faith alone.” It only indicates that faith comes first. This, of course, must be true, because those who do works outside of faith are in a system of debt, not of grace. But faith alone does not justify. A man is justified by works, and not by faith alone. James 2:24.
Gal. 5:6 – the faith that justifies us is “faith working through love,” not faith alone. Faith and love (manifested by works) are always connected. Faith (a process of thought) and love (an action) are never separated in the Scriptures. Cf. Eph. 3:17; 1 Thess. 3:6,12-13; 2 Thess. 1:3; 1 John 3:23; Rev. 2:4-5,19. Further, all faith (initial and perfected) are gratuitous gifts from God, and not earned or merited by any human action. God effects everything, both the willing and the achievement. But God also requires human action, which is necessary to perfect our faith.
I agree.
(what could I have said???)
Of course we are justified by faith, that is not contested. But faith alone is nowhere to be found in scripture, except James 2:24, where it is refuted.
Refute Scripture, add a meme, and hey, apparently that makes you correct according to the World.
No need to be confused or refute Scripture.
Faith is a Gift from God.
Eph 2:8
Faith Makes it Possible for a man to become Converted.
Isa 6:10
Faith given a man Makes it Possible for a man to DO works that please God.
Heb 11:6
The Lord rewards a man who Does works that please God.
Job 34:11
Understand what the Lord says;
It is a sinner who is saved.
A sinner cannot perform works that please God.
A Converted sinner is once and forever Changed by the mans Willing Choice and BY the Power of God.
A Converted sinner is taught and encouraged to continue learning Gods Precepts that such man is being equipped TO DO WORKS that are pleasing to God.
Scripture does not teach Works SAVE a man.
Scripture does not teach lack of works jeopardizes a mans Conversion.
Scripture teaches Pleasing Works Glorify Gods Name, and Are rewarded by God.
Scripture teaches Works that do not Glorifiy God or Please God are BURNED.
Faith without Works.....no.
Works without Faith.....is impossible.
You will suffer the burden of the consequences (ie the heavy burden that men impose)
Gal 6:5
The lesson is;
Learn the Lords Way, the Lords Precepts.
Following His Way, the Burden is Light, the yoke Easy upon you.
Matt 11:30
Following your mind instead of your heart, may cause you to be subject to Mans Way, which IS a consequence of a heavy Burden of Consequence.
Matt 23:4
Luke 11:46
What the Lord has accomplished IN a man, via Conversion, is Permanent.
John 14:16
What a man chooses to DO AFTER Conversion regarding his relationship with other men....
IS Taught in Scripture, To follow after the Lords Way.
AND is Taught in Scripture, as a warning,How a Mans Way leads to a heavy consequential burden.
God Bless,
Taken
No offense implied, however I have no interest in delving into Catholic Understanding of Scripture and their identifying their Understanding with "unique" non-Biblical terms, that a non-Catholic must learn to have a meaningful conversation with a Catholic.
For me it leans toward the double-speak of man-made legalese.
For me Scripture for a man IN Christ leans toward the fulfillment of the Law, effected By the Lord and what His Fulfillment has made available to men, to DECIDE IF THEY should desire to be partakers of the Lords Offering.
God Bless,
Taken
JesusIsFaithful
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Jesus's warnings are given to His disciples and not just believers. Even His disciples can run the risk of becoming a castaway, otherwise Paul could not say that he could become one himself in running that race for that high prize of our calling in Christ Jesus;
1 Corinthians 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. 25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
So even the apostle Paul can be at risk of being left behind at the pre great trib rapture if he did not with His help, keep his body under subjection.
Jesus warned His disciples in Luke 12:40-49 about the consequences for not being prepared which is given to any believer and thus hence any disciple to do by His grace & by His help to be found abiding in Him as His disciple when the Bridegroom comes. He cites that even that loyal servant that gives meat in due season.. that should he be beating those he eats and drinks with.....( is that symbolic of beating unrepentant saints over the head as if it is past due season to give them meat after the second and third rebuke? ) can run the risk of being left behind since we are commanded by Him to wthdraw from having company with the unrepentant.... which again... even I admit that I need His help with in following Him.
We also have warnings from Jesus about being willing to leave this life , our possessions, our jobs, and our loved ones behind as considering the cost of discipleship, giving how even a disciple will not consider the cost where it counts the most when the Bridegroom comes in Luke 14:25-33 which His saying was expounding on how those invited were excusing themselves from attending the King's Supper for the everyday cares of this life in Luke 14:15-24.
His warnings is enough to have me praying this concern to Him in trusting Him as my Good Shepherd to help me abide in him to be ready to go.
Well, Jesus's warning is given to His disciples... and the apostle Paul just testified that even he can be disqualified and become a castaway and so your definition of the unconverted can only apply to those that had never believed in Him since the promise for all those that do believe in Him, even in His name, shall receive the promise of the Holy Ghost at their salvation by faith in Jesus Christ.
2 Timothy 2:12-13 testifies to those who deny Him, they will be denied, as part of that faithful saying which continues on saying that even though he believes not, He is faithful as He will still abide, because He cannot deny Himself; thus indicative of those sheep as His lost sheep that He will gather those saints left behind that will not be of the fold received as vessels unto honor at the Marriage Supper.
Converted men have done so and some of them have walked away, because they admit that trying to keep their commitment to follow Christ is too hard. Billy Graham notorious for preaching the gospel that "it is not going to church every Sunday that will save you, it is not keeping the ten commandments that is going to save you... it is all those who call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved..." gave the opposite calling at the altar call by saying "if you are not sure you are saved... come forward and make a commitment to follow Christ."
By Graham's own words and his son is repeating that self same altar call, believers are coming forward seeking assurance of their salvation by keeping their commitment to follow Christ. That is what the altar means in the very words it is given and that is why believers become religious at their salvation and are laboring in unbelief in thinking Jesus wants them to live their lives doing the best they can in keeping that commitment to follow Him.
Jesus says if anyone would come after Him, they were to deny themselves ( as being able because no matter how much the spirit is willing, the flesh is weak ), pick up the cross daily ( in being crucified with Christ as it is not we who live, but Christ in us), and follow Him ( by trusting Him as their Good Shepherd to help us to follow Him ). That means making any plans tomorrow is out unless we look to Him being willing ( James 4:13-17 ) and that means not making oaths, promises, nor commitments to do tomorrow what we are to live by faith in Him today in following Him ( Matthew 5:33-37 & James 5:12 & Philippians 1:6-11 & Galatians 5:1-5 in the KJV. The CEV completely changed His warning and is a lie in fact. Numbers 30:2 is the reason why Jesus says it is evil for christians to make oaths... you have to do it all.. God cannot help you. That is why saints were warned against making vows or commitments because it is YOURS and it is a work of YOUR HANDS ( Ecclesiastes 5:4-6 ). God has made the New Covenant and He is telling everyone that He is going to do it and all He asks from you is to believe in Him; not just as your Saviour that you are saved simply by believing in Him, but in living as His disciple, to believe in Him as your Good Shepherd that He is in us and is with us always as our Good Shepherd to help us to follow Him. That is why it is written that the just shall live by faith.
JesusIsFaithful
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Thanks for sharing in regards to that topic of how there is a false science and the field is corrupted with misinformations and lies that our government should have included separation of atheism and state to protect children in public schools from being led astray by that false science.
When I was under that commitment to Christ in making Him Lord of my life in high school, even though I was a believer way before that time, but for some reason, that was not good enough, my life was miserable ever since because I kept trying to do the best I can but failing and so yea.. twice as a deacon, I had quit because I felt like a fraud. So regardless of how many times the Lord came to my rescue, I show my appreciation by doing the best I can again but sin the next day again. I was a yo yo for most of my young adult life until in 1994 when I read a pamphlet from Bill Rudge's Ministries, I was convicted of the words of my mouth for cussing habitually even though nobody was around at the warehouse I was managing but on the back of the pamphlet I was led to make a covenant with my mouth which I did not to cuss out loud again, but the very next day, I was worse than I ever was before. I had thoughts in my head saying , "You are not His. If you were His, He would have helped you keep your covenant." I stopped listening to the devil but being at my wits end and broken in spirit, I did pray, "Why aren't you helping me? You know I do not want to do this."
He answered; It was not audible, but I heard Him saying "You made the covenant. You said you were going to do it. I made the Covenant and I said I am going to do it. All I ask from you is to believe in Me." I was humbled that day, but as Promise Keepers movement was moving into my valley, I tried to warn others and it was in a Bible Study with a Catholic/Mason that said "Isn't a commitment like a promise? Sure it is." That was then that the Lord helped me to be free of even that commitment to rely on Him ALL the TIME instead of doing the best I can for following Him. So I no longer speak of my commitment, promises, covenant with my mouth, or anything that I have made thanks to Him as He has forgiven me for making them and set me free to rest in Him and His New Covenant to me.
So I understand how zealous christians can go astray after believing in Him at that altar call, thinking that is what Jesus really wants from us. If we could not save ourselves, then neither can we look to our flesh in following Him. By the same grace of God by faith in Him we are saved and it is by that same grace of God and our faith in Him we can follow Him. A believer's commitment speaks of himself and it is to his glory for keeping it, but a believer's faith speaks of Him and it is to His glory in seeing our faith in Him as the power in helping us to follow Him.
Needless to say.... no one has heard my warnings enough to warn others to go to Jesus to be set free from religious bondage to rest in Jesus all the time for following Him as well as know that they are saved when they had first believed in Him at the calling of the gospel.
Commit in the Bible does not always refer to meaning "I will do it". Commit in the Bible can mean "roll the burden over" or "entrust". So when one commit their ways unto the Lord and also trust in Him, they are entrusting their ways unto the Lord. So commit in the Bible means "He will do it".
Commitment always refer to the one making it as "I will do it."
Faith in Jesus Christ always refer to Jesus as the One that will do it and finish it to His glory; Philippians 1:6 2 Timothy 4:18
So even the converted that committed to Him are at risk of being left behind because no flesh can glory in His Presence. No one will boast of keeping that commitment because by that commitment is the knowledge of sin. So why speak of that down here when we know we are not going to brag about that up there? It is best to ask Jesus to forgive us for doing that evil, and rest in Him that He has set us free to follow Him by His grace & by His help alone.
Of course Jesus' warning are given to His Disciples. How can Disciple become a teaching Apostle without knowledge to Warn people?
Castaway FROM what, BY whom?
Paul is speaking of being a Castaway from people by people hearing and listening to him, should he not be observed DOING what he preaches.
Paul also speaks of jeopardizing his own "prize" ie reward should people cast him away and not listening to him, AS WAS the task given him BY the Lord.
Pray for the Lord to give you His Understanding.
This is teaching of Rewards offered by God for a Converted man WHO has received Direction from the Lord and ACTUALLY accomplishes DOING what the Lord directed the man to DO. And consequences (ie loss of rewards they could receive) should they fail to accomplish what the Lord directs them to DO.
No, it is not about Paul being LEFT BEHIND.
It is about Paul teaching his Opportunity of Rewards could be jeopardized, which the same would apply to other men.
Inanutshell, IF one is going to Teach, be a prepared Teacher, armed with the TRUTH of God, rather than the opinion of the teacher.
True. It is a precise teaching of ones willingness to LEAVE a job, a family member, possessions, etc. that are steeped in corruption....AGAINST Gods principles...
Instead of using excuses, tolerance, worldly "laws", worldly advocation, money, pressure, etc. as a supposed Valid "excuse" to NOT walk away.
Humans by their nature of being NATURAL, highly prize their "natural" life above all things. Themselves, their family, their comfort, their health, their wealth, their fun, their freebies at anyone's expense but themselves....."their, their, their"....
And the WORLD, encourages, promotes, teaches, rewards such behavior....and Demonizes and encourages demonization of anyone who will not Agree or be tolerant of "THEIR" promotions.
Many who Claim the Lord First, simply can not stand against What the World dictates and promotes.
Bottom line...the Converted ARE Converted and forever with and in the Lord.
Their Consequence shall be LOSS of rewards and heavenly Position.
Excellent. We are already knowing, the World / Flesh can not please God. And a converted mans life IS directed by the HS. A man Listening to the HS and doing accordingly, shall be highly rewarded in the Lords Kingdom.
It is our own choice To Whether we desire to be a highly appoint Servant In the Lords Kingdom OR to barely get out feet into His Kingdom and be called the Least in His Kingdom.
You are without understanding.
The Lord does not Convert and Seal and then Cast out of his Hand those that are IN Him.
Not news. Those that deny Him, shall be denied. The Converted are not denying Him or He denying them.
Be specific on what you are claiming....
1) the Lord is a liar, and after Conversion He will NOT be with you For ever?
2) the Lord is a liar, and He is with men Who do NOT believe in Him?
3) the Lord is NOT all knowing, and can be TRICKED and FOOLED by a Confession of his own created man WHO will not For ever believe, but He Converts them anyway......and then what...?
Says oh gee, they changed their mind and no longer believe...
4) the Lord UN-saves them? Un-seals them? Un-converts them? Revives their OLD MAN CREATURE?
Where are these ridiculous Consequences Taught in Scripture for when a "supposed" Converted man .... Walks away?
Because Scripture teaches, it is the Lord that KEEPS a Converted man Converted.
So please inform me where the Lords Power FAILS, and a mans power to walk away supersedes the Lords Power.
God Bless,
Taken
JesusIsFaithful
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BreadOfLife
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Sooooo, your response is to tell me to go to a Protestant website and look up their commentaries on this topic?? YOU can't answer these things yourself??
You see - that's the danger of cherry-picking Scripture the way you do.
You don't LEARN anything that way.
Thanks for sharing your experience and understanding.
First of all, we have a difference of understanding.
I believe SIN according to Hebrew/Jewish Law, is a Violation of the Law.
I believe SIN, unto a person NOT under the Law, IS "disbelief IN thee Lord God Almighty".
I elected to Learn ABOUT thee Lord God Almighty.
I elected to Trust to Believe IN thee Lord God Almighty.
I elected to Give MY LIFE TO thee Lord God Almighty.
For Him calling me; For me Electing Him; He Elected me; He Converted me; He Keeps me Forever.
My SIN AGAINST Him, IS Forgiven, IS Covered, IS remembered no more.
IOW, MY SIN is resolved, and By His Power IN ME, I can Sin NO MORE. 1 John 3:9
You seem to be claiming YOU "sin" against others or yourself.
I do not believe a Converted man can SIN against men or themselves....or God.
I believe SIN is Against God, and that SIN is Disbelief, and resolved "IF" the man is Converted.
Not a secret men ARE WEAK and wishy washy, learning new things, and ever changing their minds.
My Lord did not request the opinion or thoughts of my mind concerning my belief in Him. He requested the true thoughts of my heart.
It is EASY to blather out a Commitment, a wedding vow, or make a vow to make payments for a car, a house, jewelry, to give a friend a ride, to say you will do something, anything.......and then not do it.
Eh, the consequences....everything from awe that's okay (you didn't keep your word) to eh, You broke your vow, "I'm going to take your house, your car, your kids and your money"...
Whoops on you.
The Lord does not ASK YOU FOR A COMMITMENT to DO EVERY OPPORTUNITY of SERVICE He prepares you to BE capable of Doing.
He simply says, He will prepare you, and reward you IF you do services/works that Glorify His Name.
He does not UNCONVERT you Because you did not measure up, excell in your opportunities.
He is not the one WHO risks suffering the burden for you not Serving Him.... You do.
He does not THROW AWAY, "HIS PRIZE", because YOU do not measure up in works and behaviors.
HIS PRIZE IS; Every single Converted man...
IS "HIS" inheritance!
He ENSURES His Inheritance; that every man who heartfully confesses Belief...HE immediately Converts ONCE and FOREVER and KEEPS them in FAITHFULLNESS By His Power.
And about men....The world teaches you can do nothing without the world. You NEED someone to teach you, tell you what to believe, think for you, take care of you, raise your kids for you, coach you on Life, on what to eat, on pharmacy drug dependency , etc.
The Lord has a completely different teaching that any man can accept or not.
God Bless,
Taken
Pray for yourself.
Pray you can learn to disagree without making false claims against someone who does not agree with you.
I hear you. I do not agree with you on all points.
I trust to agree with the Lords Word and His Understanding.
God Bless,
Taken
Nancy
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I thoroughly enjoyed reading this JesusIsFaithful and Taken. My favorite post so far...you and I have much in common with our experiences.
Yes we are free indeed when we allow Him to take ALL of our burdens ...we need to hold loosely onto ALL things in this world, to trust God enough to take away from us things that would harm us in some way...why would we even entertain placing our faith and trust in anything less than perfect? There is nothing like His peace that surpasses all understanding. Took me 20 years to experience that, and oh, it is wonderful!
Jesus be with you and thank you for sharing.
-nancy
Helen
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And, how many in life do you know who do not :- "willfully and knowingly disobey Him, after you have been converted?"
We don't do it by accident, any of us choose not to...just like Jonah did.
We say NO when the answer is really 'yes'...but does not grace cover that too?
God never makes us do anything 'against our will'....but, He just always 'makes' us willing to do it!!
Yes Grace indeed....and obviously...we all know that.
PJ for this question you pose we don’t glorify God at all. Our works of blatant disobedience are ‘burned.’ God is usually then ready to raise or relocate our branch out of the soil, in the shade or gutter towards the sun, and / or prune that portion of our branch that needs to be cut off and burned to encourage more fresh growth (fruit-faith with (spiritual) works that please God). Our God is a wonderful and merciful God giving us grace upon grace. God always works with those he saves in Christ.
The vine or tree of Jesus planted by God, its branches are always believers and are never dead branches. Some just do not produce as much fruit as others and need God’s attention and correction at times.
Now this type of conversation usually ends with another person asking another question like, ‘so believers have a license to willfully sin without any consequences or without a conscience?’
Those believers, and I would say a very, very rare few, that do not grow in faith, that think they can commit sin willfully, without consequences, are fooling themselves. Unless they repent to God of these acts, their branches will stay as short stubs in this life. at least.
They will have no rewards and be considered the least in the Kingdom. This should not be taken lightly. They do have eternal and are saved as in a fire.
(1Co 3:15) If anyone's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet as having passed through fire. (NEV)
Bless you,
APAK
JesusIsFaithful
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The apostle John was writing to believers because some of them were believing that sin was no longer sin to them and so they were not sinning when they sin, which is why John refer to how Jesus walked in the light.
1 John 1:4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
1 John 2:1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
I believe the apostle John would have contentions with your words.
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