Do you really know Jesus and our Father?

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APAK

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How can one know God our Father and Jesus if we lay obstacles in our path to understanding? We add or modify scripture to suit our own theories. We interpret them to suit our own theories. We believe and confess these conclusions as our truth for salvation. Will this truly provide us with eternal life?! This is not a game or a roll of the dice! We are truly saved or not! And we never will be if many stay cozy in their own self-induced trap or web of deceit – full of pride and stubbornness.

There is the Oneness crowd, the very large Trinity crowd. There is the archangel Michael Crowd, the Saturday-only Crowd, the ‘praying in tongues’ Crowd, the many ‘gifts of the spirit’ Crowd, the priestly and Catechism and Pope Crowd, the Baptist Crowd, etc. And the ‘best of all those mentioned’ Crowd. They all place obstacles to really know Jesus and his Father.

How can one truly, ‘take up your cross’ with Christ? How can we truly be baptized with Christ if he is really an angel or God himself? How can you truly walk in God’s light? If Jesus was not born 100 percent human with only a human nature, how can he be truly called the last Adam? How can you truly have empathy and love as a brother or sister in him – Jesus Christ? The perfect unblemished (sinless) sacrifice for our sins has to be a truly human being and not part divine else we still live in sin!

Again, how can one really know your sins are forgiven when most see and believe Jesus as a God-man and therefore not truly your brother and friend as the first-born of believers? He is exalted and esteemed by his Father and we call him our Lord and savior for his victorious campaign he waged, he suffered and triumphed over sin, evil and death. He now has the keys of heaven and Hades and hell, the power of all creation in both heaven and earth today.

We say we know Jesus and yet we speak and dress distantly from him, as if we do not know him, fashioned in our Sunday (Saturday) best in speech and clothing (both spiritually and physically).

Sincerely, I would truly relook and understand 1 John 4:1-6 for example - know we have the spirit of truth or not. And then do something about it if necessary.

I also 'do' and not just 'say' these words I've written all the time.

Bless all,

APAK

Feedback is welcomed
 
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Windmillcharge

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Jesus is the truth, the life and the way, we have to believe in him. I've no doubt that we will all discover to our shame that we did not understand this or that bit/chunk of the bible or that our theology was wrong here or there.

We are not judged on our understanding nor on our knowledge, but by the indewlling spirit of God.

Fortunetly Jesus's love, grace and forbearance for our stupidsities is far greater than our ability to comprehend.
 

amadeus

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@APAK

I know what I have seen, but I do not always fully understand what I have seen so often I don't press the issue so long as it ultimately seems not important to do so.

"And the thing was good in the eyes of Pharaoh, and in the eyes of all his servants.
And Pharaoh said unto his servants, Can we find such a one as this is, a man in whom the Spirit of God is?
And Pharaoh said unto Joseph, Forasmuch as God hath shewed thee all this, there is none so discreet and wise as thou art:

Thou shalt be over my house, and according unto thy word shall all my people be ruled: only in the throne will I be greater than thou.
And Pharaoh said unto Joseph, See, I have set thee over all the land of Egypt.
And Pharaoh took off his ring from his hand, and put it upon Joseph's hand, and arrayed him in vestures of fine linen, and put a gold chain about his neck;
And he made him to ride in the second chariot which he had; and they cried before him, Bow the knee: and he made him ruler over all the land of Egypt.
And Pharaoh said unto Joseph, I am Pharaoh, and without thee shall no man lift up his hand or foot in all the land of Egypt." Gen 41:37-44


"Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows." Heb 1:2-9


So then still comes the question: Is Jesus God?




I am unable to convince anyone that they are wrong or that I am right, nor can anyone convince me that I am right or wrong! It is always God that gives the increase!

As I see it now: There is only one God, but He made for us Jesus, God, even as He made for Pharoah, Moses, God. Jesus is God, because the God [the Father to whom Jesus prayed] says that Jesus is God. As to the Holy Ghost, that is simply something special sent to us from the Father, which is really a part of Him. When God says something it happens. Do I understand all of this? In my heart, I believe that I do, but I cannot transfer that which I have to anyone else.

For every verse and argument you or anyone could present in favor of a trinity, I or someone else could go through and present a counter-argument. I know I have been through them all many times with many people over the years. I have changed my beliefs on the nature of God more than once, but even this holds no water for another person.

I know that I do not have all knowledge and I know that it is not always for me to convey even the correct knowledge that I possess to others and for them to then always embrace it. Sometimes, still, the knowledge that I believe I possess may be in error. Thus the search continues! Thus the teaching continues.

I still am learning myself from the great Teacher. I have made progress in Him by His Spirit in me, but still the old man is alive and wants the dominance. Because of this, sometimes, I am wrong in what I say and in what I believe. He is still cleaning up my messes, which have piled up during my lifetime. Sometimes our messes separate us Truth, but God understands who and what we are very well, better, in fact than we ourselves do. He hasn't given up hope on us yet in spite of our many shortcomings, so we cannot stop and lose our own hope that He will bring us to exactly where He wants us to be.
 

Enoch111

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How can one know God our Father and Jesus if we lay obstacles in our path to understanding?
Correct. And the first obstacle which needs to be removed in unbelief about who Jesus is.

If Jesus is not God the Son, He could not possible have taken away the sin of the world. In any event there are an overwhelming number of Scripture passages which UNEQUIVOCALLY assert that Jesus is God -- the great I AM.
 
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APAK

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Correct. And the first obstacle which needs to be removed in unbelief about who Jesus is.

If Jesus is not God the Son, He could not possible have taken away the sin of the world. In any event there are an overwhelming number of Scripture passages which UNEQUIVOCALLY assert that Jesus is God -- the great I AM.
Thanks for your input Enoch..Bless you..APAK
 
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GodsGrace

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Jesus is the truth, the life and the way, we have to believe in him. I've no doubt that we will all discover to our shame that we did not understand this or that bit/chunk of the bible or that our theology was wrong here or there.

We are not judged on our understanding nor on our knowledge, but by the indewlling spirit of God.

Fortunetly Jesus's love, grace and forbearance for our stupidsities is far greater than our ability to comprehend.
Well, amen to this.
I do find a big problem with two theories, which I won't go into so that the thread is not derailed.

I agree that we are not saved by our doctrine, although we do love to argue about it, don't we?

God must have a good chuckle every now and then (or maybe more often).
 
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VictoryinJesus

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There is the Oneness crowd, the very large Trinity crowd. There is the archangel Michael Crowd, the Saturday-only Crowd, the ‘praying in tongues’ Crowd, the many ‘gifts of the spirit’ Crowd, the priestly and Catechism and Pope Crowd, the Baptist Crowd, etc. And the ‘best of all those mentioned’ Crowd. They all place obstacles to really know Jesus and his Father.

Again, how can one really know your sins are forgiven when most see and believe Jesus as a God-man and therefore not truly your brother and friend as the first-born of believers?

APAK, you named all the crowds but left out those that do not believe in “Jesus as a God-Man”. which is to say like all the other crowds, there is only one crowd that is right and that is your crowd. I agree, there are so many. It makes my head spin.

And we never will be if many stay cozy in their own self-induced trap or web of deceit – full of pride and stubbornness.

Isaiah 55:11
[11] So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
 

APAK

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APAK, you named all the crowds but left out those that do not believe in “Jesus as a God-Man”. which is to say like all the other crowds, there is only one crowd that is right and that is your crowd. I agree, there are so many. It makes my head spin.



Isaiah 55:11
[11] So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Well let me add two more Crowds. I though the OP already pegged them. The anti-trinity Crowd and the non-Pre-existent Jesus Crowd.
 

VictoryinJesus

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Well let me add two more Crowds. I though the OP already pegged them. The anti-trinity Crowd and the non-Pre-existent Jesus Crowd.

You speak of 1 John 4:6
[6] We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

Are you saying the spirit of error is the teaching of a God-man? Not to get in a lengthy debate but, forgive me if you have already touched on: Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

?

As for the spirit of error...maybe we see it differently? To me, this spirit of error is not a theology but is any teaching or promise that appeals or entices the flesh. Therefore doing the opposite of God’s will which is to bring man down into the dust, face to the ground in submission, seeing man as nothing without God. Instead the appeal to the flesh leads one away, captive of the world, in bondage and a slave to a man’s wants(desire).
 
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Taken

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How can one know God our Father and Jesus if we lay obstacles in our path to understanding? We add or modify scripture to suit our own theories. We interpret them to suit our own theories. We believe and confess these conclusions as our truth for salvation. Will this truly provide us with eternal life?! This is not a game or a roll of the dice! We are truly saved or not! And we never will be if many stay cozy in their own self-induced trap or web of deceit – full of pride and stubbornness.

There is the Oneness crowd, the very large Trinity crowd. There is the archangel Michael Crowd, the Saturday-only Crowd, the ‘praying in tongues’ Crowd, the many ‘gifts of the spirit’ Crowd, the priestly and Catechism and Pope Crowd, the Baptist Crowd, etc. And the ‘best of all those mentioned’ Crowd. They all place obstacles to really know Jesus and his Father.

How can one truly, ‘take up your cross’ with Christ? How can we truly be baptized with Christ if he is really an angel or God himself? How can you truly walk in God’s light? If Jesus was not born 100 percent human with only a human nature, how can he be truly called the last Adam? How can you truly have empathy and love as a brother or sister in him – Jesus Christ? The perfect unblemished (sinless) sacrifice for our sins has to be a truly human being and not part divine else we still live in sin!

Again, how can one really know your sins are forgiven when most see and believe Jesus as a God-man and therefore not truly your brother and friend as the first-born of believers? He is exalted and esteemed by his Father and we call him our Lord and savior for his victorious campaign he waged, he suffered and triumphed over sin, evil and death. He now has the keys of heaven and Hades and hell, the power of all creation in both heaven and earth today.

We say we know Jesus and yet we speak and dress distantly from him, as if we do not know him, fashioned in our Sunday (Saturday) best in speech and clothing (both spiritually and physically).

Sincerely, I would truly relook and understand 1 John 4:1-6 for example - know we have the spirit of truth or not. And then do something about it if necessary.

I also 'do' and not just 'say' these words I've written all the time.

Bless all,

APAK

Feedback is welcomed

Agree, save the Lord 100% human part.

God Bless,
Taken
 
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Guestman

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To use the words "God the Son", as one person has on this subject, is twisting the words that both Jesus and his apostles accurately used, that of Jesus as the "Son of God" and not "God the Son".(John 3:16) It is like taking the words "son of Joseph" and reversing them to read "Joseph the son", which is completely contrary to the original wording and now becomes a distortion of the facts.

Let's use several Scriptures to illustrate this, as for example Matthew 4:4, whereby Satan tempts Jesus with the words: "If you are a son of God, tell these stones to become loaves of bread". Now let's make a reverse: "If you are God the Son, tell these stones to become loaves of bread". Is this accurate ?

Or at Matthew 4:6, whereby Satan says: "If you are a son of God, throw yourself down (off the temple battlement)". Now let's make a reverse: "If you are God the Son, throw yourself down (off the temple battlement)". Again, is this accurate or has someone not being playing with the wording in order to promote a religious ideology not found in the Bible, that of the Trinity.

For example, try to rearrange the wording in a person's will, so that instead of reading "the son of Joseph" as receiving an inheritance from a relative, the words were reversed so to read "Joseph the son" so that the inheritance can now be claimed by Joseph instead of his son. Would a righteous judge permit this or would he not have the person responsible for such wrong action to be called to account.

Now let's read Matthew 27:40, whereby passersby say to Jesus: "You who would throw down the temple and build it in three days, save yourself ! If you are a son of God, come down off the torture stake !" Now let's make a reverse: "You who would throw down the temple and build it in three days, save yourself ! If you are God the Son, come down off the torture stake !" Is this accurate or even logical ? Not at all.

Only a few verses later, the ridiculing passersby says to Jesus: "He (Jesus) has put his trust in God; let Him (or God) now rescue him if He (God) wants him, for he said, ' I am God's Son ' ".(Matt 27:43) Now let's make a reverse: "He has put his trust in God; let Him (or God) now rescue him if He (God) wants him, for he said, ' I am God the Son '. Is this accurate, or is a falsehood being dispensed here ?

The trinity doctrine holds sway over many, and why ? Because they refuse to seriously examine the Bible, but have a religious agenda, not Bible truth, that they wish to perpetuate. How does God feel about this ? All who dispense falsehoods have his disfavor, not love, directed towards them.(see Rev 21:8 concerning "all the liars.....their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur. This means the second death (everlasting destruction, not eternal torment)".
 

Enoch111

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To use the words "God the Son", as one person has on this subject, is twisting the words that both Jesus and his apostles
No, it is not twisting anything. Please note:

But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. (Heb 1:8)

Is God the Father addressing God the Son in this verse? Absolutely.
 

Hidden In Him

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the many ‘gifts of the spirit’ Crowd...
Sincerely, I would truly relook and understand 1 John 4:1-6 for example - know we have the spirit of truth or not. And then do something about it if necessary.

Feedback is welcomed

Well, since you're welcoming feedback, APAK, I suppose I'll respond. And as the scripture says, "Rebuke a wise man and he will thank you for it." So if you can prove some flaw in my perspective I will take it on good counsel. But now, I am very much of the "many gifts of the Spirit" crowd. I do NOT place the gifts above Jesus as having greater importance. That would be ridiculous. But I do believe the gifts are very important, and that they were not meant to be just a part of New Testament Christianity yet no longer have any relevance to Christian life today.

Now about the text you cite, it is actually talking about the gifts of the Holy Spirit in operation:

"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but prove the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 and every spirit that confesseth not Jesus is not of God: and this is the [spirit] of the antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it cometh; and now it is in the world already." (1 John 4:1-3).

"Proving spirits" was a reference to testing spirits that were prophesying to see if they were truly from God. Every spirit that was prophesying yet refused to acknowledge Jesus had come in the flesh was a demonic spirit, and needed to be exposed.

Anyway, I am not of the "you must manifest spiritual gifts to be saved" crowd, if that's what you meant. But what about someone who does lay a great deal of stress on the importance of operating in Spiritual gifts? Am I still out of balance on that, or no? Just curious, because I don't know that those who stress the gifts in this context should necessarily be categorized as members of a "many ‘gifts of the spirit’ Crowd" that does not put Christ first.
 

APAK

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Well, since you're welcoming feedback, APAK, I suppose I'll respond. And as the scripture says, "Rebuke a wise man and he will thank you for it." So if you can prove some flaw in my perspective I will take it on good counsel. But now, I am very much of the "many gifts of the Spirit" crowd. I do NOT place the gifts above Jesus as having greater importance. That would be ridiculous. But I do believe the gifts are very important, and that they were not meant to be just a part of New Testament Christianity yet no longer have any relevance to Christian life today.

Now about the text you cite, it is actually talking about the gifts of the Holy Spirit in operation:

"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but prove the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 and every spirit that confesseth not Jesus is not of God: and this is the [spirit] of the antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it cometh; and now it is in the world already." (1 John 4:1-3).

"Proving spirits" was a reference to testing spirits that were prophesying to see if they were truly from God. Every spirit that was prophesying yet refused to acknowledge Jesus had come in the flesh was a demonic spirit, and needed to be exposed.

Anyway, I am not of the "you must manifest spiritual gifts to be saved" crowd, if that's what you meant. But what about someone who does lay a great deal of stress on the importance of operating in Spiritual gifts? Am I still out of balance on that, or no? Just curious, because I don't know that those who stress the gifts in this context should necessarily be categorized as members of a "many ‘gifts of the spirit’ Crowd" that does not put Christ first.

Hidden In Him:
I believe you have introduced an area that many are ignorant of and scripture does not provide many details....the gifts of the spirit. The real spirit within us of God, to be sure is one that is of the spirit of Christ. What is it composed of; just truth, may other attributed that Christ had and has today, as knowledge, understanding, prophecy.etc....they are all attributes or given powers from God. Which ones are permanent in our lives here, which one are given for a single purpose and it a temporary power?

John the Baptism did not have the spirit of Christ he has the same spirit and power of Elijah. God gave him a spirit suited for his mission.

"And he will turn many of the sons of Israel to the Lord their God, 17 and he will go before him in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just, to make ready for the Lord a people prepared.” (Luke 1:16–17)

Yes, the real thing is to place Christ first in all we do...

Bless you,

APAK
 
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Hidden In Him

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God gave him a spirit suited for his mission.

"And he will turn many of the sons of Israel to the Lord their God, 17 and he will go before him in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just, to make ready for the Lord a people prepared.” (Luke 1:16–17)

Yes, the real thing is to place Christ first in all we do...

Bless you, APAK

Ok. Sounds like we may have somewhat differing views, but that's perfectly ok. Those with the Spirit of God truly within them will not readily engage in strife either. :)

God bless you, brother, and thanks for the gracious post!
 

APAK

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No, it is not twisting anything. Please note:

But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. (Heb 1:8)

Is God the Father addressing God the Son in this verse? Absolutely.
You stake you life on it then?..
Enoch:

Now there are two basic things you have neglected to perform here:

1. Validate the correct translation of the verse

2. Understand the Context

Hebrews 1:8 “But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.” (NIV)

1. In ALL scripture God Almighty is translated as God (YWHW) or should be. When is should be ‘god’ is SHOULD NEVER be God (YWHW) as was done in verse 8. The early translators deliberately kept the Original text as GOD then to God. All original text in Hebrew and Aramaic were all in Capitals, without spaces or without commas. It should have been translated as ‘god’ not God.

2. Now the context gives it all away and supports the word ‘god’ and not God in verse 8. Many people in scripture performing or in the service of God were called a god, some were even spoken of as God!

It is found in the next verse, Hebrews 1:9, says, “therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions.”

Therefore Christ cannot be the God Almighty, because the God Almighty does not have a God. Further, Christ’s God “set” him above others and “anointed” him. This makes it very clear that the use of theos here in Hebrews is not referring to Christ being God Almighty, but rather a man with great authority under another God.

Another point: Jesus’ throne will not endure eternally. The expression here like in other areas means for ages with a fixed time. Jesus will be returning his Kingdom back to God.

Why continue to promote your belief under false pretenses?

Bless you,

APAK
 

Enoch111

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You stake you life on it then?..
Yes I do. Do you stake your eternal life on rejecting the deity of Christ?

As to your dissertation about mistranslation, that is simply an excuse to avoid the plain words of Scripture. Please note that Heb 1:8,9 is a direct quotation of Psalm 45:6,7):

6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom isa right sceptre. 7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. (Psalm 45:6,7)

כִּסְאֲךָ֣ אֱ֭לֹהִים עֹולָ֣ם וָעֶ֑ד שֵׁ֥בֶט מִ֝ישֹׁ֗ר שֵׁ֣בֶט מַלְכוּתֶֽךָ׃ (ELOHIM = GOD)
אָהַ֣בְתָּ צֶּדֶק֮ וַתִּשְׂנָ֫א רֶ֥שַׁע עַל־כֵּ֤ן ׀ מְשָׁחֲךָ֡ אֱלֹהִ֣ים אֱ֭לֹהֶיךָ שֶׁ֥מֶן שָׂשֹׂ֗ון מֵֽחֲבֵרֶֽיךָ׃ (ELOHIM = GOD)
 

Helen

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You stake you life on it then?..
Enoch:

Now there are two basic things you have neglected to perform here:

1. Validate the correct translation of the verse

2. Understand the Context

Hebrews 1:8 “But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.” (NIV)

1. In ALL scripture God Almighty is translated as God (YWHW) or should be. When is should be ‘god’ is SHOULD NEVER be God (YWHW) as was done in verse 8. The early translators deliberately kept the Original text as GOD then to God. All original text in Hebrew and Aramaic were all in Capitals, without spaces or without commas. It should have been translated as ‘god’ not God.

2. Now the context gives it all away and supports the word ‘god’ and not God in verse 8. Many people in scripture performing or in the service of God were called a god, some were even spoken of as God!

It is found in the next verse, Hebrews 1:9, says, “therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions.”

Therefore Christ cannot be the God Almighty, because the God Almighty does not have a God. Further, Christ’s God “set” him above others and “anointed” him. This makes it very clear that the use of theos here in Hebrews is not referring to Christ being God Almighty, but rather a man with great authority under another God.

Another point: Jesus’ throne will not endure eternally. The expression here like in other areas means for ages with a fixed time. Jesus will be returning his Kingdom back to God.

Why continue to promote your belief under false pretenses?

Bless you,

APAK

Well for me. I would rather believe as I do, that The Lord Jesus is indeed God ... and find that He is not,.... than to risk believing ( and saying as you do) that He is not...and at the end, when finally 'face to face' I find that yes indeed he IS!!

I have a win win...but you do not my friend. :)
 
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APAK

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Yes I do. Do you stake your eternal life on rejecting the deity of Christ?

As to your dissertation about mistranslation, that is simply an excuse to avoid the plain words of Scripture. Please note that Heb 1:8,9 is a direct quotation of Psalm 45:6,7):

6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom isa right sceptre. 7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. (Psalm 45:6,7)

כִּסְאֲךָ֣ אֱ֭לֹהִים עֹולָ֣ם וָעֶ֑ד שֵׁ֥בֶט מִ֝ישֹׁ֗ר שֵׁ֣בֶט מַלְכוּתֶֽךָ׃ (ELOHIM = GOD)
אָהַ֣בְתָּ צֶּדֶק֮ וַתִּשְׂנָ֫א רֶ֥שַׁע עַל־כֵּ֤ן ׀ מְשָׁחֲךָ֡ אֱלֹהִ֣ים אֱ֭לֹהֶיךָ שֶׁ֥מֶן שָׂשֹׂ֗ון מֵֽחֲבֵרֶֽיךָ׃ (ELOHIM = GOD)

Yes it is sourced from Psalms and for the same two reasons you are incorrect again. Error in context and translation. God almighty anointed Jesus as we know after his baptism, about his fellow humans....read it again..it's all there and easy to understand. Why force something that's not there?

Bless you,

APAK