If you read Matt 7:15-23 in full context, you will see that Jesus is making a comparison between sheep and wolves in Matt 7:15. The sheep are believers in Christ and the wolves are non believers. The wolves were trying to enter the kingdom by works in Matt 7:22-23, in which He replies, "I never knew you, depart from me". Notice the definition in Isa 64 and Matt 7 as referring to "spiritual clothing". God bless
AN OFT OVERLOOKED LESSON FROM JACOB'S LADDER
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If you read Matt 7:15-23 in full context, you will see that Jesus is making a comparison between sheep and wolves in Matt 7:15. The sheep are believers in Christ and the wolves are non believers. The wolves were trying to enter the kingdom by works in Matt 7:22-23, in which He replies, "I never knew you, depart from me". Notice the definition in Isa 64 and Matt 7 as referring to "spiritual clothing". God bless
God Bless.
That was quick.
What does Mathew 7:15 have to do with works?
Mathew 7:22-23 is Jesus telling some that are LAWLESS that they depart from Jesus; IOW, He doesn't want them around.
What does practicing lawlessness mean?
It means not obeying Jesus. It means not obeying God's law.
Jesus plainly says that He did not come to abolish the law in
Mathew 5:17. He came to fulfill it as was prophesied...to make it better and to make it possible to follow it. In verse 20 Jesus says that if our righteousness does not surpass that of the pharisees, we will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
There's an idea floating around these days that faith is all we need.
I'd also like to see a verse where JESUS says this. I can't think of one.
We're to BELIEVE in Jesus, but believe carries with it the connotation of obedience.
So, yeah, your God Bless is nice, but it would also be nice if you didn't spread false ideas around.
"Our righteousnesses" do not count with God since He must see the perfect righteousness of Christ covering each and every child of God. Unless we are as perfect as God Himself, we cannot enter into His presence (Mt 5:48).
At the same time, after we have been justified by grace through faith, and God has imputed to us the righteousness of Christ, we must be righteous by the power of indwelling the Holy Spirit. Christians are appointed (or ordained) to good works, and that would be evidence to the world that we were saved by grace.
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (Eph 2:10)
Dragging in false teachers and false prophets into this simply muddies the waters.
Hi T,
I hear this a lot, Isaiah I mean.
If we are not saved and do not know our creator, God, then we can work all we want to and it means nothing to Him. This is trying to get to heaven by our works...they are indeed as filthy rags. Good ole' Abraham was justified by Faith.
BUT, after he was justified he also did works! He started right away by moving away from UR, he gave good land to his nephew Lot, he was willing to offer his only son, Isaac.
After we are saved, believe, have faith and are justified, then, and only then, do our good works mean something to God. Then they become important. Jesus clearly spoke of good works and Paul agreed with Him.
Mathew 5:3-10
Romans 13:8-11
1 Corinthians 5:9-12
I said that Paul agreed with Jesus because some believe that Jesus taught works and Paul taught grace. Even if this were true (which it's not), we should still listen to Jesus -- but the point is that, of course, Paul and also the other N.T. writers did state exactly what Jesus stated during His ministry.
Once we are saved, God no longer thinks of us as unclean.
1 Corinthians 6:9-11
Because the story doesn't end there, you have to read Matt 7:15-23 in context.
No, He's making a comparison in Matt 7:15 between sheep and wolves. The sheep are believers and the wolves are non believers. Either you are born again or you are not, John 3:3.
Right, and believers in Christ do not "practice" lawlessness. Believers have the Holy Spirit which includes obtaining Godly sorrow, 2 Cor 7:10.
Right, believers however do not depend on the law to keep them saved. They depend on the finished work of the cross and the blood of Christ.
Surpass, as in not righteousness from self. We are only righteous because of what He did on the cross, not because of anything we do. Luke 18:9-14.
Well, faith and belief in Rom 10:9 has nothing to do with faith and belief in your daily walk with Christ. One is salvation and the other is sanctification. Believers keep the faith not because they're in danger of losing salvation, they keep the faith out of thankfulness on what Christ already accomplished on the cross.
No, what is false is working for your salvation when Christ already paid the sin penalty. They confess with their mouth, but their hearts are far from Him, Rom 10:9. God bless.
He's also an OT prophet that lived before Pentecost.
Are you working to keep yourself saved, or are you working because of thankfulness that God has made a better covenant through His blood. It's one thing to be commended for your faith, it's another to be saved by it.
Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Heb 11:39-40 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 40since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.
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Heb13:8, what Revelation 12:10 KJV says about Satan who "accuses the brethren before our God day and night" cannot even begin to be compared with the actions of your fellow Christians who accuse (rebuke, exhort, reprove) their fellow Christians for their dangerous error, not before God to get them in trouble. Satan is motivated by malice while the others are motivated by love for the brethren and desire for a church "without spot or blemish or any such thing".
It's actually those who refuse to call sin by its rightful name who are the worst haters of all, according to Leviticus 19:17 KJV:
"Hate not thy brother in thine own heart. Thou shalt in any wise rebuke (accuse) thy brother and not suffer sin upon him."
It's one thing to rebuke sin and show fellow brothers and sisters the right path. It's another thing to preach that they will be thrown into the lake of fire if they don't obey or follow commandments. That's the difference, a believer understands that the warnings in Hebrews are for encouragement and chastisement, the nonbeliever thinks they're literal.
And that's where Satan comes in, the accuser of the spirit. Rom 8:33. It's pathetic.
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A believer believes God's Word. Non-believers twist God's Word in order to remove their guilt of continually indulged sinful pleasure. Heb 13:8, please look what Heb 10:26-29 says to and about believers:
26 For if we (Christians) sin wilfully after that we (Christians) have received (into the heart, not simply the ears) the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries (hellfire reserved for devils).
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he (a Christian) be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he (a Christian) was sanctified (non-believers have never been sanctified), an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Loving the brethren means sharing with those like you who preach lawlessness what Paul says will happen to them. Should we not expect that many will slap the hands that reach out to them as hateful, judgmental, bigoted, and whatever else they can find in the Saul Alinsky-esque "Rules for Christian Radicals" handbook?27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries (hellfire reserved for devils).
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he (a Christian) be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he (a Christian) was sanctified (non-believers have never been sanctified), an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
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That's right non-believers try to remove guilt. Thank God believers obtain Godly sorrow through the Holy Spirit. 2 Cor 7:10
Heb 6:4-6 and Heb 10:26-27 are actually a cross reference for the crucifixion of Christ and is using metaphorical language to describe the maturity of believers in Christ.
Not many understand that Heb 6 thought process actually begins at Heb 5:11.
Heb 5:14 But solid food is for the (mature), who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.
Heb 6:1 Therefore let us move beyond the elementary teachings about Christ and be taken forward to (maturity), not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God,
This has nothing to do with losing salvation, less one believes God throws believers into hell for lack of maturity, which is on the borderline of insanity. God bless.
No, I preach sanctification and discipline and the finished work of the cross. Lawlessness comes from self righteousness.
Matt 23?
Well, thank God you're not like them. You're better than those filthy Christians, Luke 18:11.
Everything has to be read in context.
Mathew 7:15-23
We will know false prophets by their fruit. Grape does not grow in thorn bushes.
Good trees produce good fruit
Bad trees produce bad fruit and VV
Jesus goes on to say that every tree that DOES NOT bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.
Mathew 7:19
Not everyone who cries Lord, Lord will enter into the Kingdom, but those who DO THE WILL OF THE FATHER. Sounds here like simple faith is not enough. We also must do the will of the Father.
Some believe God is happy with them, when in reality He is not, and on the last day Jesus will tell them "Depart from Me, you who PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS."
Jesus says to enter by the narrow gate.
Mathew 7:13
Jesus says to beware of false prophets.
Mathew 7:15
Where does it say that Jesus is speaking about the saved and unsaved?
Jesus is talking about those that practice lawlessness.
There is no mention here of saved or unsaved...
I would hope that the above is true...unfortunately I hear some faith only persons proclaim that even if they live a life of sin, they are still saved.
This idea comes from the faith only movement which is unbiblical, neither Jesus nor any of the N.T. writers taught this concept.
You just agreed that Jesus did not abolish the law. The law is good and holy.
Romans 7:12
Then how do you reason that we don't depend on it to keep saved?
If the law is not abolished,
and God demands obedience,
Doesn't this mean that following the law keeps us saved?
John said that not following the commandments makes us a liar.
1 John 2:4
Paul agreed.
Romans 2:7
James agreed.
James 2:17
Peter agreed.
1 Peter 1:16-17
No. Jesus raised the bar, He didn't lower it.
Mathew 5:22 If we hate our brother, it's like killing him.
Jesus did His work on the cross. Do we not want to do our work?
Mathew 16:24
Faith and belief has everything to do with our daily walk with the Lord.
How else do you believe we'll be sanctified if not by following the Master?
We keep the faith because Jesus died for us...we walk with Him out of love.
What if we stop walking with Him?
Romans 11:21-22
We must continue in our walk or be cut off.
No, what is false is working for your salvation when Christ already paid the sin penalty. They confess with their mouth, but their hearts are far from Him, Rom 10:9. God bless.
Hearts are far from Christ when there is no desire or understanding that to love Him is to obey Him.
John 14:21
What does this have to do with our conversation?
Did we have to obey before Pentecost and now we don't anymore?
Had God changed?
Was salvation acquired in a different manner in the O.T.
You seem to love the book of Hebrews, I'm sure you've read chapter 11.
The Faith Hall of Fame.
We were saved by faith in the O.T. and we're saved by faith now.
Hebrews 11:1-2
We ARE saved by our faith.
Ephesians 2:8
We are saved by God's grace through our faith. Faith is the instrument through which we receive our salvation.
Hebrews 10:39
What do you think makes the New Covenant better?
The New Covenant does not abolish the Mosaic Covenant. No Covenant ever abolished the previous one -- it only made it better or added something to it.
The New Covenant is indeed a better covenant; because it makes it possible to keep the commandments of God -- before the power to keep them was not available to us.
Acts 1:8
John 14:15
Right, and those who do not have the Holy Spirit and who are not born again produce bad fruit. They do not have the root of salvation which is Jesus Christ himself.
Right, and guess who Jesus was speaking to below. Jesus Christ himself (death, burial, resurrection) is the gate to salvation, not works.
John 10:1 "Very truly I tell you Pharisees, anyone who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber.
John 10:7-10 Therefore Jesus said again, “Very truly I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep. 8All who have come before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep have not listened to them. 9I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. They will come in and go out, and find pasture. 10The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.
These are some examples of sheep who hear and wolves who distort the truth, believers vs non believers.....
John 8:42-47 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. 43Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? 47Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”
John 10:25-30 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than allc ; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”
Act 20:28-30 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God,[fn] which he bought with his own blood. 29I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. 30Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.
Sin is not the issue in this world, it is lack of belief in the death, burial, resurrection. Believers will battle sin until they die because of the fallen world we live in. What do you think sanctification and discipline is for, John 8:7, 1 John 1:8, Heb 12. Do you enjoy throwing stones GG?
No, following the law helps you live a good life while the blood of Christ keeps you saved.
No, what makes you a liar is disbelief in the death, burial and resurrection. Less you enjoy calling God a liar?
Heb 6:16-20 People swear by someone greater than themselves, and the oath confirms what is said and puts an end to all argument. 17Because God wanted to make the unchanging nature of his purpose very clear to the heirs of what was promised, he confirmed it with an oath. 18God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope set before us may be greatly encouraged. 19We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure. It enters the inner sanctuary behind the curtain, 20where our forerunner, Jesus, has entered on our behalf. He has become a high priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.
1 John 5:9-14 We accept human testimony, but God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son. 10Whoever believes in the Son of God accepts this testimony. Whoever does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because they have not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. 11And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. 14This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.
Rom 11 is using allegory language. Using parables, allegory or metaphorical language to disprove facts is unbiblical. We work (out) our salvation, not work (for). It is God working in us, not us working for self. God bless.
Phil 1:6 being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.
Phil 2:12-13 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.
And that is what sanctification and discipline is for, it is God working through us for His purpose. Non believers have no desire because they do not have the Holy Spirit indwelling them every day.
GG, the Holy Spirit did not indwell believers with the seal of God in the OT, and if you read Heb 11 this entire chapter is referring to the ancients in the OT. Heb 8:6, Heb 11:39-40 tells us that they did not receive the promise of the better covenant, which is the shed blood of Christ. Read slower if you must.
and thank you for making my point. if you do not believe the power of God keeps you saved or that you do not know you have eternal life now, then you are on dangerous grounds.
Many miss the point.
Jesus never once spoke of the saved or unsaved in Mathew 7:15-23
What He DID speak of was those who were LAWLESS; without the law, not following the law.
Luke 12:46 speaks to this also. The slave whom the master had left in charge was mistreating other slaves IOW, he wasn't doing what his master wanted. When the master came back he put the slave with THE UNBELIEVERS. His fate was the same, even though he had been left in charge.
John 5:28-29
Jesus, again, is saying this. He does NOT speak of born again persons ... He speaks of those doing good deeds and those doing evil deeds.
This should cause one to sit up and take notice.
Right, and guess who Jesus was speaking to below. Jesus Christ himself (death, burial, resurrection) is the gate to salvation, not works.
John 10:1 "Very truly I tell you Pharisees, anyone who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber.
John 10:7-10 Therefore Jesus said again, “Very truly I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep. 8All who have come before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep have not listened to them. 9I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. They will come in and go out, and find pasture. 10The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.[/QUOTE]
Agreed.
Jesus is the gate. Jesus is the truth, the way and the life.
Without belief in Jesus one cannot be saved.
Of course, Jesus' sheep follow HIS voice.
Mathew 7:14-15 tells us in Jesus' words that we are to be careful not to follow false prophets.
Who are the false prophets these days? Those who hold the same beliefs as the early theologians of the church that came right after Jesus was resurrected, or those of these modern days who preach a different gospel?
Who are preaching as to result in good fruit? Those who preach faith only and that nothing else is required of us when this is NOT what Jesus taught?
See Mathew 25 ... Jesus left us with many things to do. He never said to only believe and we would be saved. Believe in Jesus day meant to obey.
John 3:36
Sin is not the issue in this world, it is lack of belief in the death, burial, resurrection. Believers will battle sin until they die because of the fallen world we live in. What do you think sanctification and discipline is for, John 8:7, 1 John 1:8, Heb 12. Do you enjoy throwing stones GG?
I agree that lack of belief in God is the problem, but to say that sin is not the issue does belittle sin, doesn't it?
Jesus death was to kill sin and death, so that sin would no longer have a hold on persons.
Romans 6:6
Why am I throwing stones?
I'm quoting scripture.
Don't you agree with scripture?
Did I say I'm sinless??
No. Following the law keeps us saved.
Before we followed the law because we were slaves.
Now we follow the law because we are friends, we follow the law because we have faith, and so it is an obedience of faith.
Romans 16:26
Romans 2:6-8
Romans 1:5
If we don't follow the law, it means we've lost our love for God and are lost.
John 14:15
This is what I posted:
1 John 2:3-6
3By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 6the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.
And your reply is you asking me if I like to call God a liar?
It plainly states that if you say you know God but do not keep His commandments you are a liar.
This means you must keep God's commandments.
And if you don't, yet say you know him, YOU are a liar, not me!
I'm the saying saying we must keep His commandments, you're the one saying we don't have to and all we have to do is believe Jesus died and was resurrected.
I'm saying there's more to Christianity than that.
God demands obedience to His commandments.
Well, what IS the PROMISE??
Did I bring this up? I don't think so...
Agreed. I don't know what this has to do with obeying God...
Every word in the bible is for our edification and teaching, using the language Jesus spoke --- parables, or using metaphorical language is NOT UNBIBLICAL. If so, it would really narrow down the N.T. a lot, don't you think?
2 Timothy 3:16
Was Jesus being metaphorical here:
John 5:28-29
I do agree that the Holy Spirit works in us for as long as we allow Him to.
Non believers are lost. I don't talk about non-believers -- I'm talking about keeping believers saved.
This is how they remain saved:
Colossians 1:22-23
Galatians 5:21
Galatians 6:9
We have received the promise of the better Covenant.
Why is the New Covenant better?
How have I made your point when I said that the New Covenant gives us the power to obey?
Are you now agreeing with me that we are to obey God?
(by whatever power we may have).
and yet he was, born again believers know that their works don't save them and that's precisely what Jesus condemned in Matt 7:22-23. salvation is a gift GG, not a reward.
The New Covenant is based on what Jesus did on the cross, not what man can do for himself.
False prophets -- by definition -- are unsaved. So why would Jesus state the obvious? Those who are "inwardly ravening wolves" cannot possibly be the children of God.
Of course. To believe also means to obey. But salvation -- eternal life -- is God's GIFT of grace. And those who are saved obey Christ.
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. (Eph 2:8,9).
Nancy
Well-Known Member
Wow, your long posts make me want to start smoking.
Sorry Holy Book Ends, I know you mean well, but I'm not into reading long posts.
I'm almost ready to grab a beer now.
If I do, my blood is on your hands!
And I'm not a smoker OR a drinker, for crying out loud.
But I DO ride a motorcycle and wear a black leather jacket.
One elder in the church complained about that. ;-)
Yes, it does take all kinds!
I guess I did not avoid the appearance of evil. Bad!
And now I'm 72 and still not set free of that.
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