Why "LAW" =/= "OLD COVENANT"

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Heb 13:8

Well-Known Member
Nov 2, 2016
2,040
331
83
USA
Because evidence is evidence,

and the evidence is in the resurrection, you must be born again to see the kingdom of God. Jhn 3:3

and I do not turn a blind eye to that which clearly is truth

and what is the truth HBE? Did Jesus Christ die for past, present. future sin or did He not?

Rom 8:38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers,

2 Jhn 1:2 because of the truth, which lives in us and will be with us forever:

They live in a fantasy, cloud land and aether castles.

Right, and the fantasy is going to church and playing the part every Sunday and never coming to faith in Jesus Christ, Jhn 3:3, Rom 10:9.

We believe in the full assurance of salvation, but that does not negate the freedom to leave God. It is relationship.

You have the full assurance of religion and saving yourself, but do you truly have the indwelling Holy Spirit? Where is your confidence?

Rom 8:38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers,

1 Jhn 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

1 Jhn 5:14 This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.

The Holy Ghost was available to Adam. It was available to King Saul, who was born again, but ultimately blasphemed away the Holy Ghost, as anyone can do.

No, the phrase "born again" is an NT reference only. The only way to blasphemy the Holy Spirit is through unbelief in the death,burial,resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Pentecost is no magical protection against the personal choice to leave and cease from believing and I can demonstrate this simply with Acts 4-5.

No, the believer in Christ cannot enter back into their mothers womb. Conversion is a one time permanent event. Where is your faith and belief HBE?

We are not saying it has to be that way, but we teach what the Bible says, that it is possible if one does not take heed to God.

Believers take heed to God out of thankfulness of the cross, the religious take heed out of fear because they are still enemies of God, not friends.

OT and NT is against the deadly doctrine of OSAS

No, what's deadly is you believing you can save yourself by obeying and following commandments and walking in self holiness.

OSAS is like dynamite. It gives light for awhile, and seems good, but after awhile, it goes out in a flash and sudden darkness.

Uhh no. The blood of Christ never goes out.

I would normally repond to the OSAS stuff, but you don't listen, and you rewrite scripture to suit your own purposes and do not acknowledge what is clearly stated, as in the case of Romans 8.

like what for example in Rom 8?
 

Phoneman777

Well-Known Member
Jan 14, 2015
7,184
2,534
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
it would take the power of God to change you.
That goes for everyone

Only then will you stop condemning Christians
This is the problem with liberalism. It prevents the differentiation between criticism of doctrine/behavior and condemnation of the person as whole (which I don't do, my friend).

...and get rid of that anger in your heart, via the spirit of Saul and actually grow to maturity.
It's very simple - just affirm that "thou shalt have no other gods before Me" is a commandment of God to New Covenant Christians and I'll no longer claim that antinomianists like yourself allow Satan worship as a lifestyle choice for Christians.
 

Heb 13:8

Well-Known Member
Nov 2, 2016
2,040
331
83
USA
ByGrace, Jesus told a parable of the Unmerciful Servant where the symbolism is unmistakable:

Servant = sinners
The servant's lord = God
10,000 talent impossible debt = sinners' impossible sin debt for which no sinner can pay himself
Lord forgives the 10,000 talent debt = God through Jesus' sacrifice forgives our sin and we are set free from the penalty

...and the last part of the parable which exposes the unBiblical nature of OSAS...

The unmerciful servant's impossible debt reinstated against him for refusing to manifest the forgiving character of his lord = God's withdrawal of forgiveness from the Christian because he refuses to give up his unrighteous ways.

and do you use Luke 16:19-31 to prove soul sleep is false? cherry picking? this parable is a lesson to not quench the spirit through unforgiveness. God bless.
 

Heb 13:8

Well-Known Member
Nov 2, 2016
2,040
331
83
USA
That goes for everyone


This is the problem with liberalism. It prevents the differentiation between criticism of doctrine/behavior and condemnation of the person as whole (which I don't do, my friend).


It's very simple - just affirm that "thou shalt have no other gods before Me" is a commandment of God to New Covenant Christians and I'll no longer claim that antinomianists like yourself allow Satan worship as a lifestyle choice for Christians.

There is no condemnation in believers in Christ. What's the difference in preaching condemnation to those who are no longer condemned vs talking to yourself in a padded room?
 
B

brakelite

Guest
It's one thing to tell Christians to obey or they will be thrown into hell (
KJV Revelation 20
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

them false doctrine
Hell is greatly misunderstood which is why I never use the word except in scripture above where they testify against your own opinion. I never said anything about hell, but I will say that the wages of sin is death. The wages of disobedience is death. The wages of transgression against the law of God is death.
it's another thing to guide them in love, but you would need the indwelling Holy Spirit to do that. God bless
Guiding people to a sense of security that cares not for faithfulness to the conditions of salvation is not in any sense a teaching that is inspired or sanctioned by the holy Spirit.
 

Helen

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2011
15,476
21,155
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
ByGrace, Jesus told a parable of the Unmerciful Servant where the symbolism is unmistakable:

The unmerciful servant's impossible debt reinstated against him for refusing to manifest the forgiving character of his lord = God's withdrawal of forgiveness from the Christian because he refuses to give up his unrighteous ways.

Matt 18 Peter.. said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? 22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven. (perfect sevens...infinity)
23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto ............

32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? 34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Where does it say that he was not saved???

In fact it shows the opposite..."UNTIL he pays his dues."

I have always believed in the refiners fire...our God is a consuming fire.
He burns up the dross.
 

Heb 13:8

Well-Known Member
Nov 2, 2016
2,040
331
83
USA
KJV Revelation 20
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.


Hell is greatly misunderstood which is why I never use the word except in scripture above where they testify against your own opinion. I never said anything about hell, but I will say that the wages of sin is death. The wages of disobedience is death. The wages of transgression against the law of God is death.
Guiding people to a sense of security that cares not for faithfulness to the conditions of salvation is not in any sense a teaching that is inspired or sanctioned by the holy Spirit.

Hell is for those who don't accept the free gift of salvation brakelite. In regards to death.....

Rom 8:38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers,
 

Phoneman777

Well-Known Member
Jan 14, 2015
7,184
2,534
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Matt 18 Peter.. said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? 22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven. (perfect sevens...infinity)
23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto ............

32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? 34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Where does it say that he was not saved???

In fact it shows the opposite..."UNTIL he pays his dues."

I have always believed in the refiners fire...our God is a consuming fire.
He burns up the dross.
Jesus did say "till" because after 7 years, he would normally get out of prison because of the Jubilee. Since Jesus said he'd be there until he pays the whole debt, that hope is eliminated. Therefore, if as a free man, he couldn't pay the debt, how much less able is he when locked in the tormentor's prison earning nothing toward his debt?
 

Phoneman777

Well-Known Member
Jan 14, 2015
7,184
2,534
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
There is no condemnation in believers in Christ. What's the difference in preaching condemnation to those who are no longer condemned vs talking to yourself in a padded room?
Good point, but please keep reading the verse and you'll find out that to be "in Christ Jesus" means to "walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit." What does it mean to "walk after the Spirit?" Over and over the Bible equates a righteous walk with keeping God's commandments:

Leviticus 26:3
Deuteronomy 13:4
Deuteronomy 26:17
Deuteronomy 30:16
Joshua 25:5
1 Kings 2:3
1 Kings 3:14
1 Kings 6:12
1 Kings 8:58
1 Kings 8:61
1 Kings 11:38
2 Kings 23:3
2 Chronicles 34:31
Nehemiah 10:29
2 John 1:6

Preaching against sin does not constitute condemnation of the sinner, but their sin, my friend.
 

Heb 13:8

Well-Known Member
Nov 2, 2016
2,040
331
83
USA
Good point, but please keep reading the verse and you'll find out that to be "in Christ Jesus" means to "walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit." What does it mean to "walk after the Spirit?" Over and over the Bible equates a righteous walk with keeping God's commandments:

Leviticus 26:3
Deuteronomy 13:4
Deuteronomy 26:17
Deuteronomy 30:16
Joshua 25:5
1 Kings 2:3
1 Kings 3:14
1 Kings 6:12
1 Kings 8:58
1 Kings 8:61
1 Kings 11:38
2 Kings 23:3
2 Chronicles 34:31
Nehemiah 10:29
2 John 1:6

Preaching against sin does not constitute condemnation of the sinner, but their sin, my friend.

Wow, only one scripture in the NT huh. And believers have the spirit of love. Whomever has the Holy Spirit knows God's love intimately. Those who do not have His Spirit are still enemies of God. Preaching against sin through a false doctrine like non-osas is condemnation, via throwing them into hell. Telling Christians in every post that their Satanists for believing in the finished work of the cross is condemnation, and you not seeing that is spiritual blindness. Thus the padded room.
 

Phoneman777

Well-Known Member
Jan 14, 2015
7,184
2,534
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Wow, only one scripture in the NT huh.
The establishment of N.T. truth has nothing to do with how often its repeated.

And believers have the spirit of love.
"Love is the fulfilling of the law", not the disregard of it, my friend.

Whomever has the Holy Spirit knows God's love intimately.
"Hereby we do know that we know Him if we keep His commandments. He that saith, I know Him and keepeth not His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him." Knowing God is not grounds for disregarding His commandments.

Preaching against sin through a false doctrine like non-osas is condemnation, via throwing them into hell.
OSAS is the false doctrine. It teaches we may obtain by the non-existent works of dead faith that which can only be obtained by living faith which is seen by works - eternal life. One example of many in the Bible of the inefficacy of OSAS is the parable Unmerciful Servant.

Telling Christians in every post that their Satanists
Please find me one instance where I said anyone is a Satanist. I said antinoms teach it's OK to worship Satan because they teach disregard for "thou shalt have no other gods before Me". If you don't like the logical progression, don't falsely accuse the messenger - quit preaching the message, please.

for believing in the finished work of the cross is condemnation
What was finished at the Cross was Christ's mission to die as the Lamb of God "slain from the foundation of the world". It had nothing to do with the Ten Commandments ending at the Cross, unless you believe we may now freely worship Satan, engage in idolatry, blaspheme God, etc., etc., etc.

and you not seeing that is spiritual blindness. Thus the padded room.
What's insane is the suggestion that people who refuse to turn from their irresistible sinful pleasures for a relative moment in time down here will be satisfied with the complete absence of them for all eternity up there.

It all boils down to this: to what authority do we submit - God or our own.
 
  • Like
Reactions: quietthinker

Heb 13:8

Well-Known Member
Nov 2, 2016
2,040
331
83
USA
The establishment of N.T. truth has nothing to do with how often its repeated.

Well it does, the definition of the word "believe" doesn't change.

"Love is the fulfilling of the law", not the disregard of it, my friend.

And we love out of thankfulness of the cross. Love is an extension of the gift of salvation we receive.

Rom 5:5 And hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

"Hereby we do know that we know Him if we keep His commandments. He that saith, I know Him and keepeth not His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him." Knowing God is not grounds for disregarding His commandments.

No, it's grounds for sanctification and growth in the spirit, not losing salvation.

OSAS is the false doctrine. It teaches we may obtain by the non-existent works of dead faith that which can only be obtained by living faith which is seen by works - eternal life. One example of many in the Bible of the inefficacy of OSAS is the parable Unmerciful Servant.

No, it teaches sanctification through the work of God in us. It teaches believers to depend on His work and not ours.

Please find me one instance where I said anyone is a Satanist.

"Of course we do. What does that have to do with the fact that you and others essentially teach we can worship Satan (violate the First Commandment) and still go to heaven?"

"It's Satanic blindness at its best."

"unless you believe we may now freely worship Satan, engage in idolatry, blaspheme God, etc., etc., etc. "

Those who believe in OSAS do not worship Satan, it's just one of your delusions. The truth of the Gospel is through belief, not works.

2 Thess 2:11-12 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

What was finished at the Cross was Christ's mission to die as the Lamb of God "slain from the foundation of the world". It had nothing to do with the Ten Commandments ending at the Cross, unless you believe we may now freely worship Satan, engage in idolatry, blaspheme God, etc., etc., etc.

Right, He was slain and died for the sins of the world. The Ten Comm are there for believers to live a good and pure life while the blood of Christ keeps us saved. You have the Ten Comm keeping us saved while the blood of Christ does not, and that is false.

You hold to the delusion that Christians are to walk in perfectionism or else, which is also false. In that case, you are turning God into the Satanist instead of a loving Father with unconditional love. I suppose God is a Satanist through the eyes of His enemies.

What's insane is the suggestion that people who refuse to turn from their irresistible sinful pleasures for a relative moment in time down here will be satisfied with the complete absence of them for all eternity up there.

And those who refuse to turn from their sin are nonbelievers Phoneman. They never came to that faith of conversion and indwelling Holy Spirit.

It all boils down to this: to what authority do we submit - God or our own.

And that's what believers do is submit. Submitting as a nonbeliever = religion. God bless.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Helen

Phoneman777

Well-Known Member
Jan 14, 2015
7,184
2,534
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
"Of course we do. What does that have to do with the fact that you and others essentially teach we can worship Satan (violate the First Commandment) and still go to heaven?"

"It's Satanic blindness at its best."

"unless you believe we may now freely worship Satan, engage in idolatry, blaspheme God, etc., etc., etc. "
A Satanist is one who knowingly practices Satan worship. One need not be a Satanist while being Satanically blinded or when they blindly teach others that Satan worship is OK, like you antinoms do. We'll have to agree to disagree and find out who's right on Judgment day. But I can tell you that God's people "keep the commandments of God", not disregard them, as you claim.
 

Reggie Belafonte

Well-Known Member
Mar 16, 2018
5,805
2,896
113
63
Brisbane
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Who preaches this nonsense?

Anyhow the term "the Law" in the Bible can mean several things, depending on the context:

1. The entire Old Testament
2. The Torah (first five books of the OT)
3. The Old Covenant (the Law of Moses)
4. The Ten Commandments

In the book of Romans"the Law" generally means either the Ten Commandments or the Old Covenant. Please note that both are mentioned in this verse:

Therefore by the deeds of the law [OLD COVENANT] there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [THE TEN COMMANDMENTS] is the knowledge of sin. (Rom 3:20)

The Ten Commandments show human beings that they have broken God's Laws (in whole or in part). Hence "the knowledge of sin". But the Old Covenant (the Law of Moses) gave Israel 613 laws. And many Jews thought that if they could only be *Torah observant* they would be justified. But the Bible says otherwise.
Jesus did not get rid of the Law at all, he put Grace above the Law.
The Law still stands but it's that Grace puts the Law into perspective, so we do not have the Letter of the Law over us anymore, because that has been done away with.
The Letter of the Law is seen for what it is now, it does not serve a purpose as it once did, that was only to lead you to the point when Jesus Came, Jesus came and Grace abound in him, this is the fruit of the Holy Spirit that gives Life abundantly, so we can endure as people of God under his Grace.
The Letter of the Law you get caught braking it you are dealt with regardless, no one cares why it's irrelative but with Grace it's a Human heart that guides in the fruits of Jesus giving light, not darkness of the Law.
 

Heb 13:8

Well-Known Member
Nov 2, 2016
2,040
331
83
USA
A Satanist is one who knowingly practices Satan worship. One need not be a Satanist while being Satanically blinded or when they blindly teach others that Satan worship is OK, like you antinoms do. We'll have to agree to disagree and find out who's right on Judgment day. But I can tell you that God's people "keep the commandments of God", not disregard them, as you claim.

Right, and those who practice sin are those who haven't had a conversion yet, they do not have the indwelling Holy Spirit. Believers in Christ do follow the commandments, out of thankfulness of what He did on the cross for us and not of fear of losing salvation. If you don't call God a Satanist, then who else to point the finger at but His saints. God bless.
 

Nancy

Well-Known Member
Apr 30, 2018
16,761
25,324
113
Buffalo, Ny
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Who preaches this nonsense?

Anyhow the term "the Law" in the Bible can mean several things, depending on the context:

1. The entire Old Testament
2. The Torah (first five books of the OT)
3. The Old Covenant (the Law of Moses)
4. The Ten Commandments

In the book of Romans"the Law" generally means either the Ten Commandments or the Old Covenant. Please note that both are mentioned in this verse:



Therefore by the deeds of the law [OLD COVENANT] there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [THE TEN COMMANDMENTS] is the knowledge of sin. (Rom 3:20)

The Ten Commandments show human beings that they have broken God's Laws (in whole or in part). Hence "the knowledge of sin". But the Old Covenant (the Law of Moses) gave Israel 613 laws. And many Jews thought that if they could only be *Torah observant* they would be justified. But the Bible says otherwise.

Very well put @Enoch111
 
  • Like
Reactions: Enoch111

Phoneman777

Well-Known Member
Jan 14, 2015
7,184
2,534
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Right, and those who practice sin are those who haven't had a conversion yet, they do not have the indwelling Holy Spirit. Believers in Christ do follow the commandments, out of thankfulness of what He did on the cross for us and not of fear of losing salvation. If you don't call God a Satanist, then who else to point the finger at but His saints. God bless.
What I mean is that ESSENTIALLY when we say we don't have to keep God's commandments, we tell them INDIRECTLY that which we would never tell them DIRECTLY.
 

Heb 13:8

Well-Known Member
Nov 2, 2016
2,040
331
83
USA
What I mean is that ESSENTIALLY when we say we don't have to keep God's commandments, we tell them INDIRECTLY that which we would never tell them DIRECTLY.

Not keeping commandments or quenching the spirit effects sanctification and growth in the spirit, not salvation in Rom 10:9. A converted man that quenches the spirit for example does not become unconverted. Individual conception of the seed has already taken place. The seed can be quenched but it will never depart from the believer.

When you are birthed through your mothers womb, you don't go back into your mothers womb because of disobedience, right? Well, the same application applies to spiritual birth. A believer will always know who his Father is, regardless of works or lack of works. Jesus Christ (death, burial, resurrection) is the sower, the root and the good soil!

1. Rocky ground - no root
2. Thorns - worries, wealth
3. Good soil - understanding the word

Mat 13:20-21 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.

Mat 13:22 The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful.

Mat 13:23 But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.”

Gal 3:19 Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was given through angels and entrusted to a mediator.

Gal 3:29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

1Pe 1:23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

1Jo 3:9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

- God bless.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Nancy

Phoneman777

Well-Known Member
Jan 14, 2015
7,184
2,534
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Not keeping commandments or quenching the spirit effects sanctification and growth in the spirit, not salvation in Rom 10:9.
So, by your own words that disobedience only impacts "sanctification" and not whether you go to heaven, you're above statement is saying you can go to heaven:

1) without knowing Jesus
2) without having Jesus in you
3) without having the truth in you

...because 1 John 2:3-4 KJV says those disobedient to God's commandments don't know Jesus, don't have Jesus in them, and don't have the truth i them.
 
  • Like
Reactions: GodsGrace

Heb 13:8

Well-Known Member
Nov 2, 2016
2,040
331
83
USA
So, by your own words that disobedience only impacts "sanctification" and not whether you go to heaven, you're above statement is saying you can go to heaven:

1) without knowing Jesus
2) without having Jesus in you
3) without having the truth in you

...because 1 John 2:3-4 KJV says those disobedient to God's commandments don't know Jesus, don't have Jesus in them, and don't have the truth i them.

No, believers in Christ know Jesus, has the indwelling Holy Spirit and the truth in them. All John is doing is confirming our confidence in Christ. Do you see the contradiction below...

1 Jhn 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1 Jhn 2:1-2 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 Jhn 2:4 Whoever says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person.

1 Jhn 5:14 This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.

2 Jhn 1:2 because of the truth, which lives in us and will be with us forever:

We do what He commands not because we're sinless, rather because we're thankful. God bless.