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bbyrd009

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Then comes the question as to who is that doctor and what is that prescription?
this Q never arises when medicine is your food wadr. Spiritually speaking Christ is the doctor i guess right, so i am speaking to the physical (symptom) there
The thing that might change me on that is my walk with God. The latter in this case could cause me to change the former.
wadr i suggest that the former is merely a reflection of the latter. "Dead doctors don't lie."
your generation particularly was raised on the infectious outside agent model, and the antidote model, and it is completely understandable why too, i would prolly have embraced what appeared to be no less than mir--whoa, that v just got clearer lol--anyway, miracles, but i would urge less dependence for your health upon some guy who only makes a living when you are sick
wadr

another way to put that is Doctors will lead you to antibiotic hand cleaner, which seems like an awesome idea, huh?
as to the excellent vv you Quoted, imo they can be read differently too, imo dialectics suggests to me that the term "physician" is being juxtaposed with "I came for the sick" precisely bc of the contrast, not the comparison. If that makes any sense. Kind of like Paul telling us to "run the race," which really means "don't compete at all."
imo
 

amadeus

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this Q never arises when medicine is your food wadr. Spiritually speaking Christ is the doctor i guess right, so i am speaking to the physical (symptom) there
If I recall correctly you and I kind of touched on these things once before. If I were a healthy 20 years old I might really agree better and be willing to change, but that is also unlikely. If I were a healthy 20 years old I would think I was superman and going to live forever anyway. And I am speaking to the physical as well. It is the physical that I am unlikely to change unless pressed by something in the spiritual to do so.

Last month an old Christian lady here passed away. She was I believe 95 years old. She was legally blind and even with her hearing aids she had trouble hearing what people said to her. Her mind had gotten to the point that even if she heard your words correctly literally within 5 minutes she would have forgotten what it was you said to her.

When we met this lady a little more than 6 years ago she was always the sweetest person you ever knew. She loved people. She had been a volunteer at the local hospital since 1968. Her volunteer time was down to 4 hours one day per week. When she celebrated her 90th birthday she retired from her volunteering as she had become too accident prone to effectively carry on...

So quickly we slip away heh? That lady told me about her husband who was somewhat older than her when he was fading from some kind of illness. I don't recall what. For quite a while she had listened to the medical doctors and held him close to the diet that they had recommended. Then when her and her husband were alone some months later still on the diet he told her he would like to be able to eat some of the things that he always enjoyed even though it might shorten his remaining time. She loved her man and the tears came to her eyes while telling me the story. She threw out the diet allowing him to eat as he always had before. He died about 3 years later.

Now when the lady told me this story she was asking me whether what she did was the right thing to do. I had never met her husband, but I knew her and I was confident that she did the right thing and told her so.

Consider how her situation and her question relates to our discussion.

wadr i suggest that the former is merely a reflection of the latter. "Dead doctors don't lie."
your generation particularly was raised on the infectious outside agent model, and the antidote model, and it is completely understandable why too, i would prolly have embraced what appeared to be no less than mir--whoa, that v just got clearer lol--anyway, miracles, but i would urge less dependence for your health upon some guy who only makes a living when you are sick
wadr

another way to put that is Doctors will lead you to antibiotic hand cleaner, which seems like an awesome idea, huh?
as to the excellent vv you Quoted, imo they can be read differently too, imo dialectics suggests to me that the term "physician" is being juxtaposed with "I came for the sick" precisely bc of the contrast, not the comparison. If that makes any sense. Kind of like Paul telling us to "run the race," which really means "don't compete at all."
imo

For me I do not lean on doctors. I would not go to them as often as I do if it were not for my wife's concerns. If it were not for her I would probably throw out most of my medicine now, but I would be careful about going cold turkey on some that might cause me problems as a result. I probably won't have to worry about that as I am likely to be done here before she is.

I am not a doctor and I don't plan to study much or even any more about medicine than what I already know... which is not much. Is that foolish? Hey I've been guilty of foolishness in many areas during all of my life, so why am I going to try to change that one now because the end is closer than when I began? I don't plan to commit suicide, but neither do I plan to struggle to prolong the inevitable without a clear message from God that I should do it. I have not received one. When it is my time to leave, well I simply want to be ready to do so. For that part I am ready now, but I am not in a hurry...
 
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lforrest

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It is possible to be enslaved by a diet. So don't let yourself be ensnared. Its can become like a religion, saying I can't eat that, even if it wouldn't really harm you.

A fast breaks bonds, you demonstrate to yourself and God, "I don't need that." It is an exercise in freedom.
 

VictoryinJesus

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If I recall correctly you and I kind of touched on these things once before. If I were a healthy 20 years old I might really agree better and be willing to change, but that is also unlikely. If I were a healthy 20 years old I would think I was superman and going to live forever anyway. And I am speaking to the physical as well. It is the physical that I am unlikely to change unless pressed by something in the spiritual to do so.

Last month an old Christian lady here passed away. She was I believe 95 years old. She was legally blind and even with her hearing aids she had trouble hearing what people said to her. Her mind had gotten to the point that even if she heard your words correctly literally within 5 minutes she would have forgotten what it was you said to her.

When we met this lady a little more than 6 years ago she was always the sweetest person you ever knew. She loved people. She had been a volunteer at the local hospital since 1968. Her volunteer time was down to 4 hours one day per week. When she celebrated her 90th birthday she retired from her volunteering as she had become too accident prone to effectively carry on...

So quickly we slip away heh? That lady told me about her husband who was somewhat older than her when he was fading from some kind of illness. I don't recall what. For quite a while she had listened to the medical doctors and held him close to the diet that they had recommended. Then when her and her husband were alone some months later still on the diet he told her he would like to be able to eat some of the things that he always enjoyed even though it might shorten his remaining time. She loved her man and the tears came to her eyes while telling me the story. She threw out the diet allowing him to eat as he always had before. He died about 3 years later.

Now when the lady told me this story she was asking me whether what she did was the right thing to do. I had never met her husband, but I knew her and I was confident that she did the right thing and told her so.

Consider how her situation and her question relates to our discussion.



For me I do not lean on doctors. I would not go to them as often as I do if it were not for my wife's concerns. If it were not for her I would probably throw out most of my medicine now, but I would be careful about going cold turkey on some that might cause me problems as a result. I probably won't have to worry about that as I am likely to be done here before she is.

I am not a doctor and I don't plan to study much or even any more about medicine than what I already know... which is not much. Is that foolish? Hey I've been guilty of foolishness in many areas during all of my life, so why am I going to try to change that one now because the end is closer than when I began? I don't plan to commit suicide, but neither do I plan to struggle to prolong the inevitable without a clear message from God that I should do it. I have not received one. When it is my time to leave, well I simply want to be ready to do so. For that part I am ready now, but I am not in a hurry...

The other day I was feeling exceptionally weak. I complained to my husband that I could’t see how this, whatever is going on inside my body, could be of any use to God. I complained that I was feeling too sick and too tired to be of much use to God. My husband just looked at me and said, “you put too much confidence in what the flesh can do.” I had to think about that one. Not sure if it relates well with your post Amadeus, but wanted to share it with you. You are such kind blessing here, and I am sure to many others in your life.
 

bbyrd009

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Consider how her situation and her question relates to our discussion.
i'm afraid you would not like my conclusions, and they would only sound as if i were not empathetic; consider the case that might be made of her being the one killed him in the first place, if for instance the "food he loved" was her fried food.
Now when the lady told me this story she was asking me whether what she did was the right thing to do.
i'm not surprised wadr, as the story reeks of codependence anyway.
i am certainly driven to pity her, but i'm not sure if that is even empathy or not.
imo she gets a pass bc we were (supposedly; so let's say) much more ignorant of reality and trusting of authority in that generation,
so iow she gets the same pass imo as anyone who actually believed the Doctors who said Camel cigarettes were the way to go
She was legally blind and even with her hearing aids she had trouble hearing what people said to her. Her mind had gotten to the point that even if she heard your words correctly literally within 5 minutes she would have forgotten what it was you said to her.
imagine if you will what some Greek or Japanese kid who had experienced parents and grandparents who remain lucid and functional into their 100s would characterize her "witness" as though, by way of some kind of explanation for what is surely not reading as empathy up there above. Or by extension what the 100 year olds would surely think, too.

Now would i ever say this IRL? No, and i've even finally trained my face to stop saying it too, but i still can't help feeling the hypocrite then, rather than now. i can forgive her, but i dunno about humoring her; possibly bc i used to make a lot of money humoring ppl, i dunno.

Been here an hour or so twice now, wiped the first one, and i should maybe wipe this one too
 
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amadeus

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The other day I was feeling exceptionally weak. I complained to my husband that I could’t see how this, whatever is going on inside my body, could be of any use to God. I complained that I was feeling too sick and too tired to be of much use to God. My husband just looked at me and said, “you put too much confidence in what the flesh can do.” I had to think about that one. Not sure if it relates well with your post Amadeus, but wanted to share it with you. You are such kind blessing here, and I am sure to many others in your life.
My wife has really been accident prone and sickly since I met her back in 1971. She was always cutting herself or breaking a bone or allergic to something or just sick with whatever bug was going around but it was usually something we were able to handle. Around 1990 she moved into a severe chronic asthma.

I learned to be ready during any night to get up quickly and take her to the emergency room. Doing that often cut a big chunk of time out of my sleeping. I would go to work in the morning at times with little or no sleep. That was especially difficult when it would happen a couple times of more per week. When her asthma was very bad during one year we visited the ER more than 100 times. [Eventually our doctor began making house calls to treat her asthma attacks, which helped a lot until his own troubles made it necessary for him to move out of state. He said it was safer for him to visit us than for us to go to the ER or his office. No other doctors would do that.]

I, on the other hand, hardly ever got sick and I have never in my life broken a bone. But, when I got over tired which her frequently nightly episodes caused me to do I would end up getting sick and having to take sick time off from my job, which got me into serious trouble at work. We really needed the Lord's help in order to cope with it. We needed understanding and patience

Finally we learned from the Lord that the trials were not just for her or for me, but for those other brothers and sisters where we attended church services who complained that she had too many problems. She was sick all of the time. They were quick to criticize and tell her directly or me on her behalf that she needed to have more faith. Their own lack of charity was never mentioned by anyone. We were always praying for God to help and He did, but not by eliminating the sicknesses... at least not while I was still working. I retired early in the year 2000.

As we worked together and prayed about it, God taught us to accept the situation and even as Paul had to endure his thorn in the flesh. I loved my wife, but her problems really pressed me hard. She was concerned more about me than herself because I would often had long workdays with almost no rest. God did not heal her, but He gave both of us the patience and understanding that was needed.

As for those who complained against her in the church we learned to trust God alone and forget the opinions of men. Our trust was to be in God. He was the one we needed to please and He understood better than any of us the reason why she had so many physical problems.

Now that I no longer have to go work on a job where my own rest would be involved she has few emergencies in the middle of the night or if she does she is usually able to let me sleep until morning. Her asthma has been stabilized. Give God the glory!

Did we put too much trust in the flesh... that is in the doctors or in the medicine during that period? At times maybe we did, but God was with us in it as well. Our marriage is stronger and we are both closer to God than ever before. There are more important considerations than physical health. I really believe that there was no physical healing because we had some other things to learn. We did. As an extra blessing, she has not had an asthma attack now in several years.

I hope that this has helped you to understand where these things can go. God has been with us through it all even though for many years we both suffered because of her disabled condition. We must trust God whether we receive what we think we need or not. He really is on our side.
 
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amadeus

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i'm afraid you would not like my conclusions, and they would only sound as if i were not empathetic; consider the case that might be made of her being the one killed him in the first place, if for instance the "food he loved" was her fried food.
Well, I consider that they were used to each other and depended on each other. He was dying anyway. She wanted him to enjoy what he enjoyed in spite of the danger of it. He effectively begged her to give him that... and she did. Your opinion is apparently based on just the physical part as if that were the most important thing. While it may be important I know where I would stand in it if it were me dying and my wife the one who was controlling and I am not yet 75. They were both in their upper 80's at the time. Until we have experienced what they did at their age with all the same backgrounds that they experienced how strong against them or against her could we come? Who among us has really walked in her shoes?
i'm not surprised wadr, as the story reeks of codependence anyway.
i am certainly driven to pity her, but i'm not sure if that is even empathy or not.
imo she gets a pass bc we were (supposedly; so let's say) much more ignorant of reality and trusting of authority in that generation,
so iow she gets the same pass imo as anyone who actually believed the Doctors who said Camel cigarettes were the way to go
imagine if you will what some Greek or Japanese kid who had experienced parents and grandparents who remain lucid and functional into their 100s would characterize her "witness" as though, by way of some kind of explanation for what is surely not reading as empathy up there above. Or by extension what the 100 year olds would surely think, too.
Unfortunately while your experience and expertise might be the best thing for someone seeking that kind of help, offering it to them because it fits your understanding still is unlikely to best option for them. They alone knew what they had and what they wanted. How far away is that from what they needed?

I look at the difference between wants and needs according to what I believe in my walk with God, but I know that other people are in different places than me and so I cannot and should not try to superimpose my way of thinking onto theirs. It really won't work. You mentioning people where such older people may be more of a norm really is meaningless to this situation. They still were what they were and as much as possible should be dealt with accordingly. That is my opinion. Offering advice is good thing especially if it is solicited by the proper parties but otherwise...

Now would i ever say this IRL? No, and i've even finally trained my face to stop saying it too, but i still can't help feeling the hypocrite then, rather than now. i can forgive her, but i dunno about humoring her; possibly bc i used to make a lot of money humoring ppl, i dunno.
Well you never knew the lady. I was there when she reached out and had to go with what I had. Even if there is truth in your conclusions considering that he was dead and she was on the way and wanting support, would not my choice of action have really been the best? No one could have reversed what she did even if it were wrong. Who should have more say about it than the two of them?
 

Hidden In Him

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See here the first 40 day fast:

"When I was gone up into the mount to receive the tables of stone, even the tables of the covenant which the LORD made with you, then I abode in the mount forty days and forty nights, I neither did eat bread nor drink water:
And the LORD delivered unto me two tables of stone written with the finger of God; and on them was written according to all the words, which the LORD spake with you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly.
And it came to pass at the end of forty days and forty nights, that the LORD gave me the two tables of stone, even the tables of the covenant.
And the LORD said unto me, Arise, get thee down quickly from hence; for thy people which thou hast brought forth out of Egypt have corrupted themselves; they are quickly turned aside out of the way which I commanded them; they have made them a molten image." Deut 9:9-12


And then here the 2nd 40 day fast:

"So I turned and came down from the mount, and the mount burned with fire: and the two tables of the covenant were in my two hands.
And I looked, and, behold, ye had sinned against the LORD your God, and had made you a molten calf: ye had turned aside quickly out of the way which the LORD had commanded you.
And I took the two tables, and cast them out of my two hands, and brake them before your eyes.
And I fell down before the LORD, as at the first, forty days and forty nights: I did neither eat bread, nor drink water, because of all your sins which ye sinned, in doing wickedly in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger." Deut 9:15-18

Thanks for this, Amadeus. It was a detail that escaped me, and I appreciate it.
Because of my own physical health diminishing along with hers, my wife carefully watches what I do or do not eat, and therefore I have not fasted from food for a very long time other than skipping a few meals here and there. My primary activities consists of reading and studying my Bibles along with prayer and a couple of online Christian forums. This helps me to fast from a lot other available activities in the world, which while they are not sin in themselves, might cause me to cut back on my time working for God.

I was quite active in a small local church group as well leading Bible studies and preaching once in a while. That has reduced a bit recently due to certain questionable events there...

This is excellent. I'm trying to do the same thing now. I used to lead smaller churches in worship by being something of a sort of one man band. I played guitar and sang, played bass with my feet, and used a drum machine to create a full sound. I also did it at home for a while and my wife loves worship so it made the house a happier, blessed place to be for a time. But then I kinda got out of it eventually. I have musical gifts but it's not my calling, so when I'm not heavily involved in a worship team or leading in some small church it tends to fall by the wayside.

But I'm bored lately. I think I'm about to spend a grand on a 4-track mixer and a strong powered speaker to run the drums and vocals through again, and start setting everything up. It's part hobby (making drum tracks, playing with the mix, the harmonizer, changing strings etc), but it's something that glorifies God and ministers to the spirit as well, so I need to do it, even if I don't really wanna spend that kinda money right now.

Thanks. We sound like we're in the same boat to a large extent.
 
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Hidden In Him

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The epithet Christ or Messiah (same word but in Hebrew) was never meant to be used exclusively for Jesus (the word משיח, mashiah, occurs forty times in the Old Testament)..." http://www.abarim-publications.com/Meaning/Antichrist.html#.W0emYNJKiUk

Hmmm.... might get back to that.
hmm. You sinned, so i'll fast? Where is this corroborated?

My guess would be intercession. But where did this 2nd fast occur? Did he go back up into the mountain? It says he "fell down before the Lord." Where?
 

Hidden In Him

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Amadeus...I have heard (and most probably @bbyrd009 will probably know )
That fasting for more than a couple of days when on medication can be bad, because our bodies store the medication and when we take it, + along with what is flushed out of 'storage'...we can overdose which is not good esp if it is BP meds and heart meds...and end up in ICU.

Yes. This is a serious issue to take into consideration Imo. For one thing, they say never to take meds on an empty stomach because they can really mess with your stomach lining for one thing (depending on the drug). The overdosing part might play a part too, not sure.
i'm a big fan of food fasting for health, yes

This is good. Many think it is an unhealthy thing to do when most health professionals disagree emphatically.
imo 40 day fasts are strictly for vanity, and very dangerous.

Hmmm... Ok, I'll take that under consideration, and make sure it is not the case in prayer. But keep in mind, though you may not think it valid, I was actually prophesied over that I am a very humble man, and in reality it's the truth. You don't have to believe me, though. :)
Permanent kidney and other damage can result, which sounds like is already starting with the brown pee. Get some electrolytes today imo

There is one health risk that concerns me slightly, but I believe it just needs to be addressed wisely: Those ministers who I know have completed long fasts have had a tendency to blow up later in life, and I believe it may be due to slowing down their metabolism a little. I know how to boast metabolism, so I fully intend on eating small meals when I go back to it. But then also, the Lord spoke to me that this will need to become something I return to off and on for the rest of my life, so maybe this was why. Anyone who embarks down the road of fasting and then goes back into eating like a pig may be in trouble, so I think there may need to be a certain commitment involved. And here is where I think vanity would hurt someone. Just doing it once to show everybody, "Hey, look what I did!" might come back to bite them in the aft end.
 
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Hidden In Him

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Drop your nets, leave your house, go to some other town, on foot, flat broke no extra clothes, no convos on the road, stay in one house, and eat what they feed you. See, no one is going to stroke you for that

If you read the link I provided in Post #37 (which details my motivations behind this fast), none of the things listed here have any scriptural backing for bringing the power of God to bear on my life. Frankly, if I were to do that list, it WOULD be an exercise in vanity, because God isn't leading me to do any of it. It would be strictly for performance's sake.
Yea a 40 day fast without eating is extreme.

I should add that, now into Day 10, my hunger pains are subsiding somewhat, and I still feel excellent physically. I feel thinner, I still have enough energy to do my work, and yet I'm given over to subjugating my flesh under my Lord. As far as I can tell, there are no "ill" effects on my health whatsoever yet.
"40 days" be considered a euphemism for some spiritual...trial or something, i really can't guess.

In order to make a case for this, Byrd, you kinda need to be able to do more than guess, yes? Theories without support are... theories without support. Don't get upset. I'm just responding. :)
 
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Hidden In Him

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But isn't it something you want, and therefore selfish...as others have posted on this thread...fast to gain better, more, greater gifts...to receive answers to prayer...to be fulfilled etc etc. Not casting accusations here, but there is a fine line between seeking a better relationship but being motivated for HIS sake and not your own.

Ah! Interesting argument, and here's the answer. When we are truly seeking greater gifts for the right reason, we are simply doing so so that He might minister through us to a far greater extent IN HIS LOVE. I have been meditating on (and praying over) 1 Corinthians 13 lately, which is not really about marriage or simple Christian behavior under any old circumstances. It is about what motivation we have for operating in the greater gifts, as evidenced by the fact that is what he leads off the entire Chapter with (1 Corinthians 12:31), and then returns to it again in Chapter 14. He never actually leaves the subject of the spiritual gifts. He simply tells them "a better way" to operate in them, and then goes back to teaching on the rules that should govern their functioning.
I think what fasting accomplishes is you are making yourself available. Setting aside the allurements of the flesh, (and these are not limited to appetite with regards food only) we become amenable to whatever God desires to accomplish in and through us. It is all about Him, Jesus Christ, and less of ourselves. As we surrender and empty ourselves of self, we are proportionally filled with Him.

Absolutely. Couldn't agree with you more here. Very good post.
 
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Helen

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Well, I consider that they were used to each other and depended on each other. He was dying anyway. She wanted him to enjoy what he enjoyed in spite of the danger of it. He effectively begged her to give him that... and she did. Your opinion is apparently based on just the physical part as if that were the most important thing. While it may be important I know where I would stand in it if it were me dying and my wife the one who was controlling and I am not yet 75. They were both in their upper 80's at the time. Until we have experienced what they did at their age with all the same backgrounds that they experienced how strong against them or against her could we come? Who among us has really walked in her shoes?

Unfortunately while your experience and expertise might be the best thing for someone seeking that kind of help, offering it to them because it fits your understanding still is unlikely to best option for them. They alone knew what they had and what they wanted. How far away is that from what they needed?

I look at the difference between wants and needs according to what I believe in my walk with God, but I know that other people are in different places than me and so I cannot and should not try to superimpose my way of thinking onto theirs. It really won't work. You mentioning people where such older people may be more of a norm really is meaningless to this situation. They still were what they were and as much as possible should be dealt with accordingly. That is my opinion. Offering advice is good thing especially if it is solicited by the proper parties but otherwise...


Well you never knew the lady. I was there when she reached out and had to go with what I had. Even if there is truth in your conclusions considering that he was dead and she was on the way and wanting support, would not my choice of action have really been the best? No one could have reversed what she did even if it were wrong. Who should have more say about it than the two of them?

That so reminds me of my own dad. He was 90.
I came into the kitchen one morning at 8 am and there he was , with a cereal bowl full of chocolate raisins :D

I said " Dad, you can't do that, they are not good for you.."
He said- " Why, will they shorten my life of three days..."
( He was in heart failure)
He died shortly after. The last time I heard his voice was at 9pm struggling his way to breath through reading Psalm 86 out aloud.
He was amazing.

I don't think the chocolate raisins mattered much either way :D
 
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Nancy

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i gave you a like anyway, but i'm curious why you don't buy it? After the excellent description after, i'm finding these two hard to reconcile, ty
your "hearing" is much more acute when you are hungry v when satisfied. Not sure if this is self evident or not, i could prolly dig up some study by some Dr if that would sway you any.

I guess all of your senses become more acute, although we might consider these just the physical symptoms of what is really a spiritual manifestation, if we are discussing food fasting anyway. After a big meal one is usually mostly ready for a nap, right

YOU just gave me an idea @bbyrd009 , mentioning the senses becoming acute...that applies to those who have lost sight, hearing...they say that is what happens. Now, I am distracted easily and can find myself struggling to pray deeply and fervently and effectively! 3 mini schnauzers, living in the city...phone etc. wonder if using earplugs on a regular basis would help concentration...just a thought and I am going to try it!
 
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bbyrd009

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Well, I consider that they were used to each other and depended on each other. He was dying anyway. She wanted him to enjoy what he enjoyed in spite of the danger of it. He effectively begged her to give him that... and she did.
oh, i prolly would have to i guess. i'm likely to die the same way too.
 
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bbyrd009

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Your opinion is apparently based on just the physical part as if that were the most important thing. While it may be important I know where I would stand in it if it were me dying and my wife the one who was controlling and I am not yet 75. They were both in their upper 80's at the time. Until we have experienced what they did at their age with all the same backgrounds that they experienced how strong against them or against her could we come? Who among us has really walked in her shoes?
exactly, yes. Our way of life is completely unsustainable imo, but i am also way too idealist. i have no desire to hypocritically castigate her or him, and i am just caught between the carrot and the stick here. i am witnessing the Crohn's disease, Autism, Diabetes, you name it that that way of life represents, and you are witnessing about a lady who did the right thing. i say 'the right thing' despite my reservations bc i'm sure it was difficult for her to not impose her will on her husband, which was demonstrably that he eat more healthy.
 
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