Once Saved....always Saved - Results of Questionnaire.

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Taken

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If OSAS is true, then Paul is a liar.
I have dozens of references refuting OSAS, but if you won't accept my walls of Scripture, each with a brief exegesis, you won't accept anything.

IF ONCE the Lord has Converted a man, and that man CAN afterward become Un-Saved-Un-Born Again, It would make Jesus a Liar!

Deut 32:39
John 10:28

I do not Believe Jesus or Paul were Liars.

I do believe some people, such as yourself ATTEMPT To Teach all followers of Jesus were and are Converted; Saved and Born Again; In His Hand.

They Are Not. They are Not Until "They" have exercised "Their" FREEWILL To, themselves confess and give their own Life To The Lord.

Refuting what you claim is because not all standing in the crowd listening to Jesus or Paul or Any Preacher Has Confessed and given their Life To the Lord.
 

amadeus

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Did I open a can of worms?

Amadeus:
I do see a real disconnect in your view and mine based on what you wrote here…..it is a little disconcerting if it is your view of yours or anyone else's state of salvation.

You said: “The work in us is by and through the Holy Spirit in us. It will be completed only if a person allows it to be done in him unhindered. Every time person quenches the Holy Spirit, the work is delayed or stopped. God is merciful but time is limited for each of us. Our allowed time is the limit of God's mercy.”

And you said: "No, none of those things can separate from His Love, but we can certainly pull away on our own. The dominion of ourselves was given to us and has never been taken away. This will remain until we have no more time. God limited Himself in this.

Jesus made it possible for us to do better, but the choice still always remains ours until there are no more choices”

The first paragraph is an impossibility for any man or woman to achieve. We shall sometimes quench the spirit within us, and we shall hinder the work of the spirit from time to time. You have boxed yourself into a corner using some type of mix of misrepresented scripture or by outright unscriptural basis.

We are not perfect Amadeus. We cannot deliver on this promise you suggest. No one can be saved under your criteria. The work of the spirit will never be finished in this corrupt state.
We cannot deliver while we are all alone. But what Jesus provided was the means for us to deliver by surrendering ourselves to God. This is also an impossibility for man alone. We cannot surrender completely so when we try to do it alone, we fail. So then we ask for help even in surrendering:

"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened." Matt 7:7-8


How often should we ask for His help? Not less than daily. This is like praying? How much should we pray?

"Pray without ceasing." I Thess 5:17

How can anyone pray continuously without ceasing? In the flesh a carnal man cannot. This is again we need to go back to Matt 7:7 and ask again for God's help to pray without ceasing. Many things that God asks of us are impossible, but He knows that better than we do. He knows that the only the impossible for us become possible is by getting the help of the One for which it is not impossible.

"And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible." Mark 10:27

What do you mean by ‘Our allowed time is the limit of God’s mercy?” It sounded like you are saying if God ‘sees’ we are not becoming perfect on his time line he will cut us loose? I don’t think anyone can meet his standards. So how many times can we quench the spirit to be cut loose? I hope I'm completely wrong in what you are saying here.

How much time does a man have?

"Is there not an appointed time to man upon earth? are not his days also like the days of an hireling?
As a servant earnestly desireth the shadow, and as an hireling looketh for the reward of his work:
So am I made to possess months of vanity, and wearisome nights are appointed to me." Job 7:1-3


"And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years." Gen 6:3

Psa 90:10 The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away." Psalm 90:10

"To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
A time to be born, and a time to die;..." Ecc 3:1-2


So then how many times can a man disobey God? For the children of Israel did they not rebel against God 10 times before they lost access to the Promised Land?

"Because all those men which have seen my glory, and my miracles, which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have tempted me now these ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice;
Surely they shall not see the land which I sware unto their fathers, neither shall any of them that provoked me see it: " Num 14:22-23


And Moses? For one rebellion and disobedience he lost access to that same Promise...

And what of the times we should forgive our brother?

"Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven." Matt 18:21-22


Surely God has forgiven me more times than that since I first believed? God is a merciful God, but when my time is nearly
finished should I foolishly expected that God would forgive me once more...? Hmmm? For this reason usually we do not know when our end is to be. God is not unfair or unreasonable, but neither is He a fool? Reasonably when we slip He will allow us a way to escape before He shuts the Door, but...


"Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." I Cor 10:12-13


If we have been forgiven many times for our foolish walks away from God and each time He has forgiven us, then we get careless and presume He will do it again and so then we purposely walk more time walked into sin planning to repent thereafter... then along comes that big truck that smashes us in our car before we have opportunity to repent and make it good one more time. If our heart is right and directed toward God, He will always allows us an chance to make it right, but we are tempting Him because He has always been so merciful to us... perhaps we will have presumed on Him one time too many.

What do you mean by the dominion was given to ourselves?..in what over the animals..what else? Are you somehow fusing this concept of dominion you suggest here with a type of restraining power over God’s spirt and its working within us? I hope not!
Men are all beasts or have a beastly nature from their mother's womb. The Way to God is from the unclean beast, to the clean beast, to the man who has killed all of his beasts. The means by which the beast(s) are killed is the Holy Spirit. Before Jesus paid the price for us we could not receive the Holy Spirit in us and the beasts could not be killed.

"So foolish was I, and ignorant: I was as a beast before thee." Psalm 73:22

"Wisdom hath builded her house, she hath hewn out her seven pillars:
She hath killed her beasts; she hath mingled her wine; she hath also furnished her table." Prov 9:1-2


Where is your primal logic or reasoning coming from here for this dominion theory and your limits of God's mercy theory?
The dominion is supposed to be over all of the beasts, but we, as men, have been not so successful with controlling our own beasts, have we? Our own beast(s) without God are out of control.

For example:


"But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.
Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.
Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be." James 3:8-10


We cannot control the tongue, but... that is the tongue of the old man. What of the new?

"And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;" Mark 16:17

Give God the glory, my friend!
 

Heb 13:8

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You cannot lose faith in Jesus Christ unless you had faith in Jesus Christ.

Let me know if you see the contradiction (of non-osas) in the Synoptic Gospels. God bless.

Matt 13:21 (does not use the word believe) (it uses trouble/persecution)
Mark 4:17 (does not use the word believe) (it uses trouble/persecution)
Luke 8:13 (uses the word believe) (aphistémi/depart)
Rom 8:35, 38-39 (nothing can separate us, even trouble/persecution)
1 Tim 4:1 ( aphistémi/depart)

Matt 13:21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.

Mark 4:17 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.

Luke 8:13 Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.

Rom 8:35, 38-39 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

1 Tim 4:1 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.

Luke 8:13 / Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible - which for a while believe: their faith is a temporary one, like that of Simon Magus; which shows it is not true faith; for that is an abiding grace, Christ, who is the author, is the finisher of it, and prays for it, that it fail not. The Persic version renders it, "in the time of hearing they have faith"; and such sort of hearers there are, who, whilst they are hearing, assent to what they hear, but when they are gone, either forget it, or, falling into bad company, are prevailed upon to doubt of it, and disbelieve it. The Arabic version renders it, "they believe for a small time"; their faith do not continue long, nor their profession of it, both are soon dropped:
 

APAK

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Did I open a can of worms?


We cannot deliver while we are all alone. But what Jesus provided was the means for us to deliver by surrendering ourselves to God. This is also an impossibility for man alone. We cannot surrender completely so when we try to do it alone, we fail. So then we ask for help even in surrendering:

"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened." Matt 7:7-8


How often should we ask for His help? Not less than daily. This is like praying? How much should we pray?

"Pray without ceasing." I Thess 5:17

How can anyone pray continuously without ceasing? In the flesh a carnal man cannot. This is again we need to go back to Matt 7:7 and ask again for God's help to pray without ceasing. Many things that God asks of us are impossible, but He knows that better than we do. He knows that the only the impossible for us become possible is by getting the help of the One for which it is not impossible.

"And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible." Mark 10:27



How much time does a man have?

"Is there not an appointed time to man upon earth? are not his days also like the days of an hireling?
As a servant earnestly desireth the shadow, and as an hireling looketh for the reward of his work:
So am I made to possess months of vanity, and wearisome nights are appointed to me." Job 7:1-3


"And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years." Gen 6:3

Psa 90:10 The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away." Psalm 90:10

"To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
A time to be born, and a time to die;..." Ecc 3:1-2


So then how many times can a man disobey God? For the children of Israel did they not rebel against God 10 times before they lost access to the Promised Land?

"Because all those men which have seen my glory, and my miracles, which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have tempted me now these ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice;
Surely they shall not see the land which I sware unto their fathers, neither shall any of them that provoked me see it: " Num 14:22-23


And Moses? For one rebellion and disobedience he lost access to that same Promise...

And what of the times we should forgive our brother?

"Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven." Matt 18:21-22


Surely God has forgiven me more times than that since I first believed? God is a merciful God, but when my time is nearly
finished should I foolishly expected that God would forgive me once more...? Hmmm? For this reason usually we do not know when our end is to be. God is not unfair or unreasonable, but neither is He a fool? Reasonably when we slip He will allow us a way to escape before He shuts the Door, but...


"Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." I Cor 10:12-13


If we have been forgiven many times for our foolish walks away from God and each time He has forgiven us, then we get careless and presume He will do it again and so then we purposely walk more time walked into sin planning to repent thereafter... then along comes that big truck that smashes us in our car before we have opportunity to repent and make it good one more time. If our heart is right and directed toward God, He will always allows us an chance to make it right, but we are tempting Him because He has always been so merciful to us... perhaps we will have presumed on Him one time too many.


Men are all beasts or have a beastly nature from their mother's womb. The Way to God is from the unclean beast, to the clean beast, to the man who has killed all of his beasts. The means by which the beast(s) are killed is the Holy Spirit. Before Jesus paid the price for us we could not receive the Holy Spirit in us and the beasts could not be killed.

"So foolish was I, and ignorant: I was as a beast before thee." Psalm 73:22

"Wisdom hath builded her house, she hath hewn out her seven pillars:
She hath killed her beasts; she hath mingled her wine; she hath also furnished her table." Prov 9:1-2



The dominion is supposed to be over all of the beasts, but we, as men, have been not so successful with controlling our own beasts, have we? Our own beast(s) without God are out of control.

For example:


"But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.
Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.
Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be." James 3:8-10


We cannot control the tongue, but... that is the tongue of the old man. What of the new?

"And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;" Mark 16:17

Give God the glory, my friend!
Amadeus:

I believe you are using the words ‘deliver and surrendering ourselves’ to know the will of God and work in it, as we perform our daily holy walk of life.

The spirit within me teaches humility and to lose myself or deny myself as I carry my own cross until I eventually fall flat on my face. Even though I can carry it longer these days I still fail and fall short of the mark. I eventually stop walking in God’s will and need God’s help once again. I always need God’s help to know him and his will. Each time I ‘carry’ I break a new distance record. I surrender to his will for longer periods of time. My heart is becoming more predictable and more aligned with God’s spirit. It is a part of maturing in Christ.

What you consider praying everyday is the same as carry one’s own cross every day. The latter includes praying or communicating with God, to just to know his will. It also means that our heart leans out in love for him as we communicate. We tell him our day, our problems, our thanks, our wants, how is it in heaven. How is my brother Jesus? We communicate to Christ our own Lord and savior and to our Father as our true Father who loves us and chose us.

When we stop doing this cross carry and cease to pray, and other holy commands, we are at our spiritual breaking point and shall step out of God’s very soon. We need God once more as always.

In your example of the Israelites in rebellion in the Promised land. God exercised justice based on the Law, using his unlimited mercy. They required severe discipline and testing that was consummate to the Law.

Today, God also exercises justice with unlimited mercy upon his people. He constantly does this work in our hearts that affects our souls, the crucified old man of sin that is dead. He disciplines and instructed us according to his graces (grace upon grace), not the Law.

God’s mercy is unlimited to especially those he chose in love. He knows their hearts. His exercise of justice is also unlimited, to all of mankind.

Psalm 103:11 “For as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is his mercy toward them that fear him.”

Titus 3:5 “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost.”

continued on next post...APAK
 

APAK

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What is disturbing are these two statements of yours, @amadeus :

“God is a merciful God, but when my time is nearly finished should I foolishly expected that God would forgive me once more...? Hmmm? “

“…we purposely walk (one) more time walked into sin planning to repent thereafter..”

I look at these two statements and wonder if you are walking under the Law rather than under grace!

You cannot be saved under Law today!

So, I gather you don’t believe in the act of atonement for sin by our Lord and Saviour? That God will forgive you of all your sins. Folks get hung up about future sins, are they forgiven? When Jesus atoned for sin it was for all of them, in God’s mind and infinite time. He already saw your future sins that are in the future for you, and me.

Does a child of God really plan to sin and plan to repent of it afterwards? I for one have never done this although I have done some whoppers without a set plan for repentance beforehand. My heart tells me to repent if it is necessary or at least to confess our errors to God. I never enjoy sin, period. I don’t know of any believer that does either. I know of many on TV, and in real life, as gangsters as in the Mafia, that did just this all the time. Their religion allowed it. Were they believers?


When you get into an argument with someone that you KNOW will cause another pain and cause strife, is this preplanned sin or sin at all?

When you get mad suddenly, because you have been wronged, and you hurt someone mentally and physically, is this preplanned sin or sin at all?

When you plan to kill someone because your loved one is dead because of this person, is this pre-planned sin, or sin at all?

If you are a soldier and kill a civilian deliberately, for fun or not, is this pre-planned sin, spontaneous sin or not sin?

The point I’m making is that who are we to decide if we sinned or not even though we may be convinced we did and feel guilty!

continued on next post...
 

APAK

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@amadeus
God knows the heart and he is the ONLY ONE to judge and to correct a believer or convict a sinner.

A believer should not be weighed down with any guilt after an event or action of pain occurred. I know the old man still wanted to take credit. The spirit within us will do all that is necessary for our correction or penance if required, believe me!

It reminds me of the classic example: Hitler committed the most heinous crimes or sins so is going the ‘hell’ or away from God. He has no salvation. Can we be what he really did and are we so sure as a man or woman in a corrupt state as ourselves his judgement?

Why do you seem to be setting your/our own threshold for forgiveness and mercy of God for salvation?

And then I’m lost of the ‘new tongues’ subject, at the end of your post. How does that fit in to salvation?

Bless you brother and forgive me if I did not understand all your words or meaning..

APAK
 

amadeus

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@APAK
Thank you for your kind response. I cannot add anything that will convict or convince anyone of anything good or better. Only God can do that. Sometimes He may give me the words. I know what I believe and I know what I am living only as God reveals them to me. Sometimes it is not so clear but then in a moment of prayer or even of doubt about a thing He flashes me the needed understanding. He decides when it needed, not me. I will attempt to answer a couple of your specific questions.
 

amadeus

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What is disturbing are these two statements of yours, @amadeus :

“God is a merciful God, but when my time is nearly finished should I foolishly expected that God would forgive me once more...? Hmmm? “

“…we purposely walk (one) more time walked into sin planning to repent thereafter..”

I look at these two statements and wonder if you are walking under the Law rather than under grace!
Herein is a problem with communication. I was explaining how I see things work with people that I have known or which have been revealed to me by God as I talk with Him or read the scriptures. This is not how I am or how I serve God. This is frequently what people do when discussing their beliefs with one another. So we have a lack of communication or miscommunication. I was attempting to respond to your previous questions or lack of understanding or what I have seen or understood. I cannot convey those things to your anymore than you can convey such things to me... unless God is in the transfer of information or understanding. Yet again, "Only God gives the increase".

We are to love our brothers even if we do not always understand them. This is certainly where there is a lot of trouble for a lot of people. They believe they are right, which is expected as we all do, but when they/we press too strongly to change someone the question they/we should always ask of themselves/ourselves and/or of God, is whether it is of God or of themselves/ourselves?
 
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amadeus

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@amadeus
God knows the heart and he is the ONLY ONE to judge and to correct a believer or convict a sinner.

A believer should not be weighed down with any guilt after an event or action of pain occurred. I know the old man still wanted to take credit. The spirit within us will do all that is necessary for our correction or penance if required, believe me!

It reminds me of the classic example: Hitler committed the most heinous crimes or sins so is going the ‘hell’ or away from God. He has no salvation. Can we be what he really did and are we so sure as a man or woman in a corrupt state as ourselves his judgement?
I don't want to judge even such as Hitler appears to have been although my flesh may tell me that he deserves punishment. What does my flesh know of the things of God? I never met Hitler, but I have heard and read much of Nazi Germany and what occurred there with him as the leader. Like all of us, Hitler was dead to God until and if he received Life from Jesus. I could speculate and study the records more and draw conclusions, but then in other placed, perhaps even on this forum, I have been very slow to accept the histories which men have written and expressed. Why without first hand knowledge [my own witness as if that would make the difference] would I go to all of that trouble? Is Herr Hitler on trial at Nuremburg and I am to be his judge? I thank God that I am not. Even if I were would that give me leave to also to stand in God's judgment seat for Hitler?

"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." John 3:18-20


The ones who have not come to the Light who have not believed on Him are condemned already. But because I have read so much about Hitler do I know all that needs to be known so as to render a fair judgment on him? Fortunately, again, there is no need because it is not my job. He either remained condemned or he did not and I can have my opinion about that but must it be expressed in a judgment on my part? Should it be?

Why do you seem to be setting your/our own threshold for forgiveness and mercy of God for salvation?
I was simply trying to explain where I want to be and where I have been. Again, communication? I had hoped to make it clear that only God knows the time when for anyone of us there is no more time to make things right. Only God gives the increase! Only God sets the limits. He gave us authority but He knows that we do not know how to properly use that authority. We must give it back to Him. When and if we do then He can and will help us. If we do not we will remain in condemnation and death.

And then I’m lost of the ‘new tongues’ subject, at the end of your post. How does that fit in to salvation?
Sorry about that one. It was simply an example that came to my mind when I was responding to you. The new tongues was simply a part of what God gives to the new man to enable him to walk as Jesus walked. Jesus never had the trouble we have with a lying tongue or a sinning history with bad habits to be overcome.

Bless you brother and forgive me if I did not understand all your words or meaning..

APAK
No need to apologize. Simply keep striving to accomplish what God desires and asking for His help. What else can any of us do?
 
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JesusIsFaithful

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Let me know if you see the contradiction (of non-osas) in the Synoptic Gospels. God bless.

Matt 13:21 (does not use the word believe) (it uses trouble/persecution)
Mark 4:17 (does not use the word believe) (it uses trouble/persecution)
Luke 8:13 (uses the word believe) (aphistémi/depart)
Rom 8:35, 38-39 (nothing can separate us, even trouble/persecution)
1 Tim 4:1 ( aphistémi/depart)

Matt 13:21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.

Mark 4:17 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.

Luke 8:13 Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.

Rom 8:35, 38-39 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

1 Tim 4:1 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.

Luke 8:13 / Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible - which for a while believe: their faith is a temporary one, like that of Simon Magus; which shows it is not true faith; for that is an abiding grace, Christ, who is the author, is the finisher of it, and prays for it, that it fail not. The Persic version renders it, "in the time of hearing they have faith"; and such sort of hearers there are, who, whilst they are hearing, assent to what they hear, but when they are gone, either forget it, or, falling into bad company, are prevailed upon to doubt of it, and disbelieve it. The Arabic version renders it, "they believe for a small time"; their faith do not continue long, nor their profession of it, both are soon dropped:

You seem to be applying that if one falls away from the faith due to persecution, then they were never saved because nothing would separate them from Christ, but it is the other way around. Nothing will separate Christ from us; Nothing that causes us to fall away will separate Him from us.

Your references cites why they fell away, not having roots, but Paul offers a different conclusion from what you are inferring from His words.

Colossians 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: 7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. 8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

All believers had received Him at the calling of the gospel when they had believed in Him, but afterwards is where discipleship comes in, and not very man continue in the word to be rooted in the faith and traditions to beware deceivers and seducers that would cause them to fall away from the faith.

Discipleship is about abiding in Him to bear fruit so that our joy may be full; it is not for obtaining salvation by. However, there is a repercussion and the call to depart from iniquity is even given out to former believers because as the church is supposed to excommunicate an unrepentant brother ( 1 Corinthians 5:4-5 ) so that they keep the commandment not to have fellowship with unrepentant believers living in sin to not even "eat" with them ( 1 Corinthians 5:11 ), then you can understand why God is judging His House first ( 1 Peter 4:7-19 ) which will happen when the Bridegroom comes, because not every saved believer will be found abiding in Him ( Luke 12:40-49 ) nor even have a desire to go because they love this life and their loved ones in it rather than leave everything behind to meet the Bridegroom in the air to join Him in Heaven for the King's Supper ( Luke 14:15-33 )

So your verses apply only to lack of discipleship for why saved believers fall away as that is the cause for them not being "fruitful".

John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. 9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.

So there is a penalty for not running that race but we are all in that race as saved believers called to run by looking to the author & finisher of our faith in helping us to lay aside every weight & sin to be received by the Bridegroom when He comes.

Even former believers are called to depart from iniquity as 2 Timothy 2:18-21 proves and why we seek that they may depart from the iniquity of unbelief so that they may obtain that eternal glory that comes with our salvation in Christ Jesus and that is to be received as a vessel unto honor in His House. 2 Timothy 2:10-13 Any unrepentant iniquity, even religious dead works, that denies Him, they will be denied by Him ( Titus 1:15-16 & 2 Timothy 2:12 & Matthew 7:21-23 ), but even though they believe not in Him any more, He is faithful BECAUSE He still abides as 2 Timothy 2:13 has declared that glory of God as our Saviour for all those that believe in Him, even in His name, and that is why there are vessels unto dishonor in His House.

So all believers that have received Jesus Christ are saved, regardless if they err from the truth and overthrew their faith for not being rooted in the word in walking with Him, but because He still abides in even in former believers, they are to be called to go to Him for help in discerning the lies that turned them away from Him to believe in Him again in getting ready for the Bridegroom as well as being fruitful and having their joy full in the Lord.
 

Heb 13:8

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You seem to be applying that if one falls away from the faith due to persecution, then they were never saved because nothing would separate them from Christ, but it is the other way around. Nothing will separate Christ from us; Nothing that causes us to fall away will separate Him from us.

Your references cites why they fell away, not having roots, but Paul offers a different conclusion from what you are inferring from His words.

I believe you have missed the point. Faith is the noun, the subject in which these people have not obtained. The main reason why people do not come to a "saving faith" is because they have not root. Their hearts are far from Him, confessing but not truly believing in the heart. That is what my post is about.

Colossians 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: 7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. 8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

This passage is simply giving us encouragement. When individual conception has taken place in the believer, that seed cannot and will not be removed.

John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. 9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.

Using allegories to prove facts is false, and the fact is, is that Jesus died for past present and future sins.

So all believers that have received Jesus Christ are saved, regardless if they err from the truth and overthrew their faith for not being rooted in the word in walking with Him, but because He still abides in even in former believers, they are to be called to go to Him for help in discerning the lies that turned them away from Him to believe in Him again in getting ready for the Bridegroom as well as being fruitful and having their joy full in the Lord.

It sounds to me that you believe in non-osas, the same deceitful philosophy spoken of in Col 2, no? It's a dangerous place to be in. God bless.
 

MattO

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Agree Grams...Yes, once saved = saved.
But what should keep us motivated is the place/seating in the Kingdom.
As we keep on keeping on ..seeing Him who is invisible..never looking to the left or right but at God our Goal...we will in due time reach or Destination.
He is our Destiny.
Do you mean that once you make it to Heaven that you are saved for all of eternity? I might agree to that but am not certain at this point. I think I have heard that after the end times that the souls who made it to Heaven are then reunited to their bodies for 1000 years. Then comes the 2nd judgement. I would definitely need to start digging up some sources if you wish to see proof of this...

One thing that I have learned in all of my studies is that the ancient Israelites believed that there is salvation on earth (New Testament Cross Reference: Acts 13:47) in which one can fall from and that there is eternal salvation in Heaven.
 

MattO

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I believe you have missed the point. Faith is the noun, the subject in which these people have not obtained. The main reason why people do not come to a "saving faith" is because they have not root. Their hearts are far from Him, confessing but not truly believing in the heart. That is what my post is about.



This passage is simply giving us encouragement. When individual conception has taken place in the believer, that seed cannot and will not be removed.



Using allegories to prove facts is false, and the fact is, is that Jesus died for past present and future sins.



It sounds to me that you believe in non-osas, the same deceitful philosophy spoken of in Col 2, no? It's a dangerous place to be in. God bless.
Responding to your first statement...

How do you explain the prodigal son? Do you think he was not a believer until he came back from his sinful journey? My belief is that the story of the prodigal son is meant to convey the message that a believer may fall away to later return.

Would not the fact that the prodigal son as mentioned in the Bible, in such a manner, imply that he was one of the elect?

Do you think that Eve was a believer?
 
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Helen

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Do you mean that once you make it to Heaven that you are saved for all of eternity? I might agree to that but am not certain at this point. I think I have heard that after the end times that the souls who made it to Heaven are then reunited to their bodies for 1000 years. Then comes the 2nd judgement. I would definitely need to start digging up some sources if you wish to see proof of this...

One thing that I have learned in all of my studies is that the ancient Israelites believed that there is salvation on earth (New Testament Cross Reference: Acts 13:47) in which one can fall from and that there is eternal salvation in Heaven.

No, not quite.
I believe that once we come to the Lord through the redemption of Jesus Christ..we become a son of God...Once a son, always a son.

If you ever read C.S .Lewis ...."The Chronicles of Narnia" :)

"Once a king of Narnia , always a King of Narnia."

No, I didn't get my theology for those books... :)
...but by what I read in scripture.

Also, I am not "a debater". Which I know annoys some people. Ha!
I have my opinions , just as others have theirs.
I do not "buy into " those who say they have scriptural quotes for proof.
Anyone can quote a few scriptures.
 

MattO

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No, not quite.
I believe that once we come to the Lord through the redemption of Jesus Christ..we become a son of God...Once a son, always a son.

If you ever read C.S .Lewis ...."The Chronicles of Narnia" :)

"Once a king of Narnia , always a King of Narnia."

No, I didn't get my theology for those books... :)
...but by what I read in scripture.

Also, I am not "a debater". Which I know annoys some people. Ha!
I have my opinions , just as others have theirs.
I do not "buy into " those who say they have scriptural quotes for proof.
Anyone can quote a few scriptures.

I will post a few scriptures to see what you might think...

2 Peter 2:21 21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.

*Note: I believe that this verse implies that there are believers who go to hell and that those who do suffer more so than many other souls who go to hell.

1 Peter 4:18- And, "If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?"

*Note: This was taken from the NIV which is not the interpretation that I normally use. In the Bible that I use, it says that the "righteous are scarcely saved".

How could it be hard for the righteous to be saved (1 Peter 4:18) under the "Once Saved Always Saved" philosophy?
 

Heb 13:8

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Responding to your first statement...

How do you explain the prodigal son? Do you think he was not a believer until he came back from his sinful journey? My belief is that the story of the prodigal son is meant to convey the message that a believer may fall away to later return.

Would not the fact that the prodigal son as mentioned in the Bible, in such a manner, imply that he was one of the elect?

Do you think that Eve was a believer?

The prodigal son is a parable...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parables_of_Jesus

Disproving facts through parables is sloppy exegesis.

Eve lived and died before Pentecost, before the seal of God was placed on believers, Acts 2:1-4.

God bless
 

Helen

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It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.

See I said it was a unless exercise.
I do not see in that scripture what you see.
I knew a wonderful man who loved God with all his heart..it came through when he preached.

He got depressed because of his wife hating him to go preaching...it had gone on for years.
Long story short ...he went to a bar , drank etc etc... blah blah blah.
He felt that he had committed the unpardonable sin.
Nothing could change his mind.
We took him into our home because we knew he was suicidal because he felt he had "lost heaven" ...and was going to hell..and may as well get it over with.

He did do that...but he became a recluse ...even at the end he believed he was lost. Because of the heinous words that are preached saying that God will "un-son"a son !!!!
That is not the God that I know.

He died penniless.
I am 100% sure I will see this dear man in heaven...he never stopped loving God deep in his heart, he used to cry....but he thought God has given up on him for his sin of backsliding.

That is what I think of your verse...
He was in hell on earth at the end..believing such scripture was saying he was going to hell. When all along it was saying that he lost his rewards of- "he who remained faithful unto the end"....... and, of the Overcomers...found in Revelation 3.

You in your small corner, and I in mine. And those who preach as you believe are responsible for the devastation of many a poor soul...

This conversation is done. Thank you and God bless.
 

LC627

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Epostle1

"Does your new nature rob you of the freedom to make the wrong choices?"

No sir, of course not. On the contrary, my new nature causes me to want the will of God and nothing less...the new man does not desire the old ways. And in fact, causes me/us to want to make right choices. :)

Philippians 2:13 - for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose. :)
 
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LC627

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Not sure how he got to total depravity.
[/QUOTE]

@GodsGrace What was your spiritual condition before Christ?
 

GodsGrace

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The prodigal son is a parable...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parables_of_Jesus

Disproving facts through parables is sloppy exegesis.

Eve lived and died before Pentecost, before the seal of God was placed on believers, Acts 2:1-4.

God bless
Oh for goodness sake....
You sound like a broken record.
Stop telling everybody they have sloppy exegesis when it's not true
And You don't ever exegete any verse!