The timing of the 6th seal

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Jay Ross

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C'mon, just tell me.
There were a few decrees. The one most definitive was in 457BC. Easily researched.

The Diagram shows that the 2,300 years of the Daniel 8: 9-14 started in 457 BC however if we consider the details in Daniel 8 it tells us the following: -
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Daniel 8: 8-23: - 8 Therefore the male goat grew very great; but when he became strong, the large horn was broken, and in place of it four notable ones came up toward the four winds of heaven. 9 And out of one of them came a little horn which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the Glorious Land. 10 And it grew up to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and some of the stars to the ground, and trampled them. 11 He even exalted himself as high as the Prince of the host; and by him the daily sacrifices were taken away, and the place of His sanctuary was cast down. 12 Because of transgression, an army was given over to the horn to oppose the daily sacrifices; and he cast truth down to the ground. He did all this and prospered.

13 Then I heard a holy one speaking; and another holy one said to that certain one who was speaking, "How long will the vision be, concerning the daily sacrifices and the transgression of desolation, the giving of both the sanctuary and the host to be trampled underfoot?"

14 And he said to me, "For two thousand three hundred days; then the sanctuary shall be cleansed."

Gabriel Interprets the Vision

15 Then it happened, when I, Daniel, had seen the vision and was seeking the meaning, that suddenly there stood before me one having the appearance of a man. 16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of the Ulai, who called, and said, "Gabriel, make this man understand the vision." 17 So he came near where I stood, and when he came I was afraid and fell on my face; but he said to me, "Understand, son of man, that the vision refers to the time of the end."

18 Now, as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep with my face to the ground; but he touched me, and stood me upright. 19 And he said, "Look, I am making known to you what shall happen in the latter time of the indignation; for at the appointed time the end shall be. 20 The ram which you saw, having the two horns — they are the kings of Media and Persia. 21 And the male goat is the kingdom of Greece. The large horn that is between its eyes is the first king. 22 As for the broken horn and the four that stood up in its place, four kingdoms shall arise out of that nation, but not with its power.

23 "And in the latter time of their kingdom,
When the transgressors have reached their fullness,
A king shall arise,
Having fierce features,
Who understands sinister schemes.

24
His power shall be mighty, but not by his own power;
He shall destroy fearfully,
And shall prosper and thrive;
He shall destroy the mighty, and also the holy people.

25
"Through his cunning
He shall cause deceit to prosper under his rule;
And he shall exalt himself in his heart.
He shall destroy many in their prosperity.
He shall even rise against the Prince of princes;
But he shall be broken without human means.

26
"And the vision of the evenings and mornings
Which was told is true;
Therefore seal up the vision,
For it refers to many days in the future."
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The 2,300 year prophecy did not start until after Alexander the Great died and His Empire divided to form four kingdoms led by the four Generals who answered to Alexander the great. Alexander the Great is recorded to have died in 323 BC. around 134 years later than what the diagram suggests. But it was more than likely that the little horn that came out of one of the four horns to begin the trampling of the Sanctuary did not occur for around another 70 or so years. That was why I said that the end point of the 2,300 years of the prophecy of the little horn trampling the sanctuary will not end until around 200 years later than what the diagram indicates.

Therefore the integrity of the Diagram is in question as it does not truthfully portray the recorded prophecy in Daniel 8.

Shalom
 

Jay Ross

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What I have is an understanding of when Israel will be redeemed. Paul in Romans 11:25-26 tells us that Israel will be redeemed after the completion of the fullness in time, i.e. the 2,300 years, of the heathen Gentiles trampling the sanctuary, all of Israel will be saved.

I also understand that the present two ages of Israel experiencing the visitation of the iniquities of the fathers upon their children and their children's children has not yet reached its fullness of completion just yet and there is still a little time to be played out before the shepherd will go out looking for his lost sheep. Hosea 6 tells us the following: -

Hosea 6: 1 - 3: - 6:1 Come, and let us return to the Lord;
For He has torn, but He will heal us;
He has stricken, but He will bind us up.
2 After two days, {i.e. within God's timeframe}, He will revive us;
On the third day, {i.e. within God's timeframe}, He will raise us up,
That we may live in His sight.
3 Let us know,
Let us pursue the knowledge of the Lord.
His going forth is established as the morning;
He will come to us like the rain,
Like the latter and former rain to the earth.​

Also Lamentations, which was written as a lamentation for the present two ages, also tells us the same thing but has to be unpacked a little differently from how it has been translated, tells us this

Lamentation 5:15-22: - 15 The joy of our heart has ceased;
Our dance has turned into mourning.
16 The crown has fallen from our head.
Woe to us, for we have sinned!
17 Because of this our heart is faint;
Because of these things our eyes grow dim;
18 Because of Mount Zion which is desolate,
With foxes walking about on it.

19 You, O Lord, remain forever;
Your throne from generation to generation. {i.e. for two ages}
20 Why do You forget us forever, {i.e. for such a long period of time}
And forsake us for so long a time?
21 Turn us back to You, O Lord, and we will be restored;
Renew our days as of old,
22 Unless You have utterly rejected us,
And are very angry with us!
Genesis 15:16 also told us that some of Abraham's descendant will return to the land of Canaan in the fourth age of their existence.

And Matthew 24:31 informs us that around 91 + years after the fig tree begins to bud again that the summer season of harvest will commence, i.e. the next age begins.

So I have a good sense of when Isaiah 24: 21-22 will unfold in our near future.

If we have a reasonable understanding of when the end event for the 2,300 years prophecy will occur in our near future, then we have a reasonable understanding of when this prophecy began to unfold 2,300 years ago.

Shalom
 

quietthinker

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What I have is an understanding of when Israel will be redeemed. Paul in Romans 11:25-26 tells us that Israel will be redeemed after the completion of the fullness in time, i.e. the 2,300 years, of the heathen Gentiles trampling the sanctuary, all of Israel will be saved.

I also understand that the present two ages of Israel experiencing the visitation of the iniquities of the fathers upon their children and their children's children has not yet reached its fullness of completion just yet and there is still a little time to be played out before the shepherd will go out looking for his lost sheep. Hosea 6 tells us the following: -

Hosea 6: 1 - 3: - 6:1 Come, and let us return to the Lord;
For He has torn, but He will heal us;
He has stricken, but He will bind us up.
2 After two days, {i.e. within God's timeframe}, He will revive us;
On the third day, {i.e. within God's timeframe}, He will raise us up,
That we may live in His sight.
3 Let us know,
Let us pursue the knowledge of the Lord.
His going forth is established as the morning;
He will come to us like the rain,
Like the latter and former rain to the earth.​

Also Lamentations, which was written as a lamentation for the present two ages, also tells us the same thing but has to be unpacked a little differently from how it has been translated, tells us this

Lamentation 5:15-22: - 15 The joy of our heart has ceased;
Our dance has turned into mourning.
16 The crown has fallen from our head.
Woe to us, for we have sinned!
17 Because of this our heart is faint;
Because of these things our eyes grow dim;
18 Because of Mount Zion which is desolate,
With foxes walking about on it.

19 You, O Lord, remain forever;
Your throne from generation to generation. {i.e. for two ages}
20 Why do You forget us forever, {i.e. for such a long period of time}
And forsake us for so long a time?
21 Turn us back to You, O Lord, and we will be restored;
Renew our days as of old,
22 Unless You have utterly rejected us,
And are very angry with us!
Genesis 15:16 also told us that some of Abraham's descendant will return to the land of Canaan in the fourth age of their existence.

And Matthew 24:31 informs us that around 91 + years after the fig tree begins to bud again that the summer season of harvest will commence, i.e. the next age begins.

So I have a good sense of when Isaiah 24: 21-22 will unfold in our near future.

If we have a reasonable understanding of when the end event for the 2,300 years prophecy will occur in our near future, then we have a reasonable understanding of when this prophecy began to unfold 2,300 years ago.

Shalom
The attention on physical Israel is a smoke screen. One has to do the selective quoting and or misunderstand the application scripture intended to glean the view that physical Israel is in the spotlight.
Believers are the Israel of God. When it is viewed from this perspective the scripture becomes seamless.
 

Jay Ross

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The attention on physical Israel is a smoke screen. One has to do the selective quoting and or misunderstand the application scripture intended to glean the view that physical Israel is in the spotlight.
Believers are the Israel of God. When it is viewed from this perspective the scripture becomes seamless.

I understand your problem. You believe in the replacement theological perspective, and as such you cannot see that the Nation of Israel will, in our near future, be redeemed, and that God will reconstitute His Kingdom of Priests, and a Holy Nation and God's Possession among the Nations Covenant with the Nation of Israel.

Perhaps you can confirm with scriptural references that the OT prophecies concerning the END TIMES does not include in their mix, the Physical "Nation"/People Group of Israel's descendants.

I look forward to reading your justified response to your premise.
 

Jay Ross

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you won't work out anything else accurately without it

I cannot establish an accurate time line of events unless I know the full time span from the only starting point that we know accurately. The creation of Adam is the only starting point that do we know accurately. All other event time markers/signposts have inherent computational errors associated with them and the inherent computational errors increases with the passage of time. Perhaps you can tell me what the full time span for mankind will be as there is much conjecture as to how long this time period should be.
 

quietthinker

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I understand your problem. You believe in the replacement theological perspective, and as such you cannot see that the Nation of Israel will, in our near future, be redeemed, and that God will reconstitute His Kingdom of Priests, and a Holy Nation and God's Possession among the Nations Covenant with the Nation of Israel.

Perhaps you can confirm with scriptural references that the OT prophecies concerning the END TIMES does not include in their mix, the Physical "Nation"/People Group of Israel's descendants.

I look forward to reading your justified response to your premise.

As a physical nation that has special favours from God they are no longer in the running. This should be evident to you from their history since the crucifixion. When Jesus said, 'your house is left to you desolate' he indicated that their status as a chosen people (nationaly) was no more. As individuals as all individuals on the planet the message of salvation now goes and those who embrace it are God's Israel.
 

quietthinker

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I cannot establish an accurate time line of events unless I know the full time span from the only starting point that we know accurately. The creation of Adam is the only starting point that do we know accurately. All other event time markers/signposts have inherent computational errors associated with them and the inherent computational errors increases with the passage of time. Perhaps you can tell me what the full time span for mankind will be as there is much conjecture as to how long this time period should be.
Sorry Jay, that's a poor attempt to disempower and nullify the specifics Gabriel gave to Daniel re time frames. Daniel 9:25-27
 

Harvest 1874

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I cannot establish an accurate time line of events unless I know the full time span from the only starting point that we know accurately. The creation of Adam is the only starting point that do we know accurately. All other event time markers/signposts have inherent computational errors associated with them and the inherent computational errors increases with the passage of time. Perhaps you can tell me what the full time span for mankind will be as there is much conjecture as to how long this time period should be.

Adam's creation dates from 4126 B.C. this is shown by The True Bible Chronology taken directly from the scriptures and which I have posted on my blog post located on this site. A proper understanding of the Bible's true chronology is invaluable to the student of prophecy.
 

Enoch111

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The creation of Adam is the only starting point that do we know accurately.
And that is why chronologer Martin Anstey went strictly by OT chronology (Masoretic Text and KJV) and called the year of the creation of Adam the Year of Man (Anno Hominis or AH), and then brought the chronology through the Scriptures to the crucifixion of Christ (AD 30). But he also made an adjustment for Ptolemy's incorrect chronology which is generally used for dating. Study The Chronology of the Old Testament.
 

Jay Ross

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Sorry Jay, that's a poor attempt to disempower and nullify the specifics Gabriel gave to Daniel re time frames. Daniel 9:25-27

Really, where did I make reference to the Daniel 9: 24 - 27 prophecies and attempt to fix them on a timeline as was done in the diagram that you posted. I do remember that I suggested that Daniel 9 : 24's starting point was probably 494 BC rather that the suggested 457 BC that the diagram, that you posted, suggests. The Daniel 9 : 25 prophecy I made no reference to, while the Daniel 9 : 26a prophecy, we are told, will happen at some time after the Daniel 9 : 25 prophecy has been fulfilled.

The Daniel 9 : 26b prophecy we know began to after the completion of the 26a prophecy and has a time span that is just short of around 2,000 years.

The Daniel 9 : 27 prophecy then follows the fulfilment of the Daniel 9 : 26b prophecy and in fact does not come into play for at least another 1,000 or so years after the Bottomless pit is unlocked and Satan and the other fallen wicked heavenly hosts are released.

You have your understanding of how Daniel 9 : 24-27 will unfold. I have my understanding as to how this Daniel passage will unfold.

We each have God's blessing to hold to whatever interpretation we want to believe.

I am also happy to allow the passing of time to reveal whether you or I have come closest to the right understanding of the Daniel 9 prophecies as to when they will occur.

In my statements above I made no attempt to disempower or nullify the specific Gabriel gave to Daniel. Sadly, that is what has been done in the diagram that you posted.
 
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Jay Ross

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Adam's creation dates from 4126 B.C. this is shown by The True Bible Chronology taken directly from the scriptures and which I have posted on my blog post located on this site. A proper understanding of the Bible's true chronology is invaluable to the student of prophecy.

Well, the flood was over and the land was dried up when Noah was 601 years old. Not as you have suggested in your blog 600 years old.

Genesis 8:13: - 13 In the six hundred and first year, in the first month, the first day of the month, the waters were dried from off the earth; and Noah removed the covering of the ark, and looked, and behold, the face of the ground was dry.

A small error but still a significant error.
 

Jay Ross

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And that is why chronologer Martin Anstey went strictly by OT chronology (Masoretic Text and KJV) and called the year of the creation of Adam the Year of Man (Anno Hominis or AH), and then brought the chronology through the Scriptures to the crucifixion of Christ (AD 30). But he also made an adjustment for Ptolemy's incorrect chronology which is generally used for dating. Study The Chronology of the Old Testament.

You may like to provide a link to the article/book that you are referring too.
 

Harvest 1874

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Well, the flood was over and the land was dried up when Noah was 601 years old. Not as you have suggested in your blog 600 years old.

Genesis 8:13: - 13 In the six hundred and first year, in the first month, the first day of the month, the waters were dried from off the earth; and Noah removed the covering of the ark, and looked, and behold, the face of the ground was dry.

A small error but still a significant error.

If you take the time to examine what was said once again you will note that we did not miss the extra year you mentioned that was covered in Part 2 of The True Bible Chronology.

"Noah was ...........600 years old when the flood of waters were upon the earth." Gen 7:6 (Link#10)

Total from the creation of Adam to the day the flood was dried up.” Gen 8:13 (Link# 11) = 1656 years
 

Harvest 1874

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The following is a list of the first 6,000 years of man's existence in selected systems of bible chronology. As can be seen there are many variations in the chronology of the bible, this means it’s up to the discriminating student of God’s word to thoroughly investigate so as to ascertain which chronology most closely follows the scriptures itself.

Jewish Calendar (a) 3761 B.C. -- 2240 A.D.

Dionysius Petavius (b) 3983 B.C. -- 2018 A.D.

1628

James Usher (c) 4004 B.C. -- 1997 A.D.

1654

William Hales (d) 5411 B.C. -- 590 A.D.

1809

Henry Fynes Clinton (e) 4138 B.C. -- 1862 A.D.

1824

William Miller (f) 4157 B.C. -- 1843 A.D.

1831

C. Bowen/C. T. Russell (g) 4129 B.C. -- 1872 A.D.

ca. 1830

Dimbleby/Totten (h) 3999 B.C. -- 2002 A.D.

ca. 1890

Martin Anstey/Philip Mauro (i) 4046 B.C. -- 1955 A.D.

1913

Lawrence Danhoff (j) 4073 B.C. -- 1927 A.D.

1919

Jehovah's Witnesses (k) 4026 B.C. -- 1975 A.D.

1963

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(a) Zinberg, Jewish Calendar Mystery Dispelled, p.112.

(b) Smith's Comprehensive Dictionary of the Bible, p.174.

(c) Lee, ed., New Self-Interpreting Bible Library, I., pp.65, 98-106; Usher's Annales

Veteris Et Novi Testamenti, 1650-54.

(d) Lee, op. cit. p.65.

(e) Based upon date of deluge (2482 B.C.) given in Elliott's Horae Apocalypticae;

Clinton's Fasti Romani, 1824-1851.

(f) Miller, A Dissertation on Prophetic Chronology.

(g) Russell, The Time Is At Hand, pp. 33-54.

(h) Russell, Tower Reprints, 1896 article, p.1977.

(i) Mauro, The Wonders of Bible Chronology.

(j) Danhoff, A Comprehensive Bible Chronology.

(k)Watchtower Bible & Tract Society, All Scripture Is Inspired of God and Beneficial, pp.292-296, 286.
 

Jay Ross

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If you take the time to examine what was said once again you will note that we did not miss the extra year you mentioned that was covered in Part 2 of The True Bible Chronology.

"Noah was ...........600 years old when the flood of waters were upon the earth." Gen 7:6 (Link#10)

Total from the creation of Adam to the day the flood was dried up.” Gen 8:13 (Link# 11) = 1656 years

I am sorry I did not quote a little more of the Genesis flood account. It reads,

Genesis 7 : 6: - 6 Noah was six hundred years old when the floodwaters were on the earth.

Genesis 7: 11-12: - 11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. 12 And the rain was on the earth forty days and forty nights.

Genesis 8: 13-14: - 13 And it came to pass in the six hundred and first year, in the first month, the first day of the month, that the waters were dried up from the earth; and Noah removed the covering of the ark and looked, and indeed the surface of the ground was dry. 14 And in the second month, on the twenty-seventh day of the month, the earth was dried.

Notice please that the Waters began to flood the earth on the 17 day of the month, of the second month of the 600th year of Noah's life.

Also notice please that the waters were dried up from the earth on the 1st day of the 1st month of the 601st year of Noah's life and it was not until the 27th day of the second month of the 601st year of Noah's live.

From the above, it can be seen that the Ark was closed up for just over one year and that the flood was not over until the 601st year of Noah's life when God told Noah to leave the ark. In your link to your "blog", you reference Genesis 8:13 but you use the number 600 instead of the number 601 which is found in the Genesis 8:13 reference that you used for the flood being over.

It is an error, a very common error.

The second error that you have used to determine the year BC in which Adam was created is the use of 1874 AD from which you then worked backwards to calculate the Year in which Adam was created. In all of your blogs on your chronological calculations, I found no justification of the 1874 year at all.

I also noted that in your chronology you discounted the Genesis 11 chronology was in error concerning the year that Abraham was born to Terah. The number of years between when Abraham received the covenant from God to when they left Egypt discounting the Exodus 12:40. You also discounted that there was 480 years between when Israel left Egypt and Solomon laid the foundation stone of he Temple.

These checks and balance in the Chronology of the scriptures give me warning that the chronology that you are pushing in your blog is very flawed indeed.