Adam and Mary........Mediatrix

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Jay Ross

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Has any thought/considered that Adam could have corrected Eve and said, "Hey, my lovely, God said that we should not eat of the tree of knowledge. Full stop. SO I will not partake of the fruit of this tree with you. etc. etc. etc.

That is why in the Mosaic Law a husband can over turn an oath his lovely has entered into immediately upon hearing of the oath, but if he does not overturn the oath upon his hearing of it, then he is bound by his lovely's oath.

If we see sin and say nothing, then we are also unintentionally committing that same sin. It is scary.
 
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VictoryinJesus

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myrrh also comes from this, and while bitter is the most common tranny, i'm wondering now if strong might not be a better characterization? there's a pretty good imo treatise on this in http://www.abarim-publications.com/Meaning/Mary.html#.W1tMKNJKiUl, in the "Etymology of the name Mary." i'd be curious to hear an unbiased pov there, seemed legit to me

Thank you. I was okay up until “The reality of Christ”. Maybe it was because I skimmed but it seemed they suggest Christ was never an actual “historical” man but is a title for all men; once they are enlightened. maybe I misunderstood.
 

Enoch111

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Has any thought/considered that Adam could have corrected Eve and said, "Hey, my lovely, God said that we should not eat of the tree of knowledge. Full stop. SO I will not partake of the fruit of this tree with you. etc. etc. etc.
Exactly. It is quite amazing that Adam simply went along with Eve's transgression, since they both knew exactly what had been stipulated.
 
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epostle1

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It is confusing how Mary is seen as other than what she was. Yes, she was blessed. As every believer 'born again' of Spirit: is also blessed. Hebrew meaning of Mary: Wished-for child; rebellion; bitter. "bitter' same as in (Exodus 15:23) "...they could not drink the waters of Marah, for they were bitter:" and (Ruth 1:20) "And she said unto them, Call me not Naomi, call me Mara: for the Almighty hath dealt very bitterly with me." But the woman was to be saved through childbirth: Luke 1:48-49 [48] For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. [49] For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name. Going from "wished-for child; rebellion; bitter...to "blessed". And all that go from 'bitter' and are redeemed (born from above) are called 'blessed'; for he that is mighty hath done to them great things!

Genesis 35:10-11
[10] And God said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel. [11] And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;

Out of the loins of compassion: that is what God showed to 'the woman' cursed with bitterness: compassion and Mercy and grace. John 3:6-7 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. [7] Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again."

'That which is born of the flesh is flesh...'
'...that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.' Galatians 4:26 "But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all."

Luke 14:26
[26] If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

… if any man does not love his Heavenly Father(God) and Heavenly mother(the new Jerusalem) more … he cannot be my disciple.

Matthew 15:4
[4] For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father(God) or mother(the new city), let him die the death.

Mark 10:19
[19] Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father(God) and mother(the new Jerusalem which is free). 'Live by the Law of the new land where I place you' Ephesians 6:2-3 "Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise) [3] That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth."

"REDEEMER IN THE WOMB" an image of the "Redeemer in the womb":: "Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;"
An Ordinary Woman and Mother of God
by Ven. Catherine Doherty, foundress of Madonna House

Consider Mary as she really is. Everybody honors Our Lady. Of course she is to be honored. She is the Mother of God. But I would like to tell of her ordinary life.

There are many women like me who feel that she is so high up that nobody can touch her. It is true that she is high up, but she is also very ordinary.

What did she do all day? I imagine she washed and scrubbed and cleaned. She was married to a carpenter. She wasn't a big shot in Nazareth. Nazareth was a small town. Joseph wasn't a big shot, just a carpenter.

She tended to her husband and Son, especially when he was small. She cooked, she scrubbed and she washed and wove and attended to the garden and did the laundry. Our Lady was the first person who really knew how to do the will of God in its minute details.

I revel in her normality because she is ordinary and at the same time extraordinary. It was an ordinary household and that is a most fantastic thing. Our Lord chose for his mother a working woman; that's what she was, a working woman.

She got up in the morning, and on some days of the week carried the laundry to the pool. The women of Nazareth must have come to her constantly because she was who she was. She must have kept, not a cookie jar, but the Eastern sweets that all the Eastern people love, and children must have come to her.

I think of her in realistic terms, but I also think of her as the woman with the power to stand silently under the cross of her Son, and in some sort of an incredible way, I understand that at that moment she became the mother of all humanity, for whom he died.

She's the woman of speech and she's the woman of silence. She's stronger than an army in battle array and as weak with God as only a woman can be. She dusted and she cleaned. And she cooked and she knew how to weave.

She wove his seamless garment. Her life was a sea of small things so infinitely small that they're almost not worth mentioning. The corn had to be ground, her house swept, the meals prepared; day after day the Mother of God did those things.

From her we can learn the quality of listening, and of taking up the words of others as well as the words of God, holding them in our hearts until the Holy Spirit cracks them wide open and gives us the answer as he did to her as her Spouse.

You asked me to explain who Our Lady is. You could say that she's the gate. She's the gate to the way to the Father, because it is through her that Christ came to us and it is through her that we return to him.

http://www.madonnahouse.org/
 

VictoryinJesus

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You asked me to explain who Our Lady is. You could say that she's the gate. She's the gate to the way to the Father, because it is through her that Christ came to us and it is through her that we return to him.


No. I am sorry but Mary is not THE gate. Her husband is known in the gate when He sits among the elders. You do get that right? Mary has to be a part of His body, which makes her “blessed” to be a part of HIS bride and redeemed. Or Mary is not joined to that body, which belongs to the head which IS Christ.

Proverbs 31:23-26
[23] Her husband is known in the gates, when he sitteth among the elders of the land. [24] She maketh fine linen, and selleth it ; and delivereth girdles unto the merchant. [25] Strength and honour are her clothing; and she shall rejoice in time to come. [26] She openeth her mouth with wisdom; and in her tongue is the law of kindness.

“...and in her tongue is the law of kindness.” God’s Law: the Law of kindness. And she is “blessed” for it. Mary goes from bitter with poison in the tongue to, having the Law of kindness in her tongue(blessed)the Proverbs woman...as every believer. Healed. There is One gate. One way. Every believer points to that One way. Anything else is a lie, if It doesn’t point to Christ as the gate. 2 Corinthians 5:17 “Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.” Even Mary; for she is “blessed” through her redeemer. It is not through Mary to Christ to God. But is through Christ to God.
 
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bbyrd009

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Thank you. I was okay up until “The reality of Christ”. Maybe it was because I skimmed but it seemed they suggest Christ was never an actual “historical” man but is a title for all men; once they are enlightened. maybe I misunderstood.
i don't completely get/agree with everything in there, but his focus seems centered on manifesting Christ to me. Followers are deemed "elohim" in Scripture, too; and imo he is trying to point at "don't be worshipping a Snake on a Pole."

and it is true that the same appellation, "Christ," was used for Caesar, etc, many others, i think regardless of whether they turned out to be enlightened or not? Imo there he is mostly pointing out that we use the term diff now than how it was understood then. A person might set themselves up as "savior" and not be, and vice-versa, as brought out elsewhere.

Pick up your cross and follow Me is distinctly diff from "Get down on your knees and worship Me" iow
 
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bbyrd009

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She is the Mother of God.
so you say, but cannot Quote
You could say that she's the gate.
You would be going directly against Scripture, but sure you could say that if you want.
You could say worshipping satan is the way to go too, i mean may as well right.
You could say whatever you want, but that does not make it truth
You asked me to explain who Our Lady is.
did she? i don't think she did wadr.

There ya go, perfect opp for a Free Shot! :D
Joseph wasn't a big shot, just a carpenter.
more likely a mason i guess
 
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bbyrd009

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Mary goes from bitter with poison in the tongue
does she? this is why i dislike the "bitter" translation. What caused Mary to say "God has dealt very _______ with me?" Now don't get me wrong, it might be true, but i am having a hard time believing that a bitter person would be chosen? Can we read any other indication of this "bitter?" Otoh God works in mysterious etcetc...lol
 
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epostle1

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No. I am sorry but Mary is not THE gate. Her husband is known in the gate when He sits among the elders. You do get that right? Mary has to be a part of His body, which makes her “blessed” to be a part of HIS bride and redeemed. Or Mary is not joined to that body, which belongs to the head which IS Christ.

Proverbs 31:23-26
[23] Her husband is known in the gates, when he sitteth among the elders of the land. [24] She maketh fine linen, and selleth it ; and delivereth girdles unto the merchant. [25] Strength and honour are her clothing; and she shall rejoice in time to come. [26] She openeth her mouth with wisdom; and in her tongue is the law of kindness.

“...and in her tongue is the law of kindness.” God’s Law: the Law of kindness. And she is “blessed” for it. Mary goes from bitter with poison in the tongue to, having the Law of kindness in her tongue(blessed)the Proverbs woman...as every believer. Healed. There is One gate. One way. Every believer points to that One way. Anything else is a lie, if It doesn’t point to Christ as the gate. 2 Corinthians 5:17 “Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.” Even Mary; for she is “blessed” through her redeemer. It is not through Mary to Christ to God. But is through Christ to God.
Like many words in scripture, "gate" can have more than one meaning. In the sense that it is used in post #64, it simply means that the God/man Jesus came to earth through the gate of a woman, not space aliens. In the same sense, you yourself came into the world through the "gate" of your mother. It's a language issue, not a scriptural issue. But I expected the usual rigid prejudice against Jesus' mom so common with Protestants. What many don't know is the early reformers accepted all the Marian doctrines except intercession. A Protestant can protest against Protestants who protest against reformist Protestants. It's a built in feature.
Mary was blessed among all women at her conception, AND by the fruit of her womb, Jesus. "both/AND", not "either/or" , Scripture doesn't say she was blessed only because of God in her womb. Luke 1:42


redeemer in the womb.jpg
 

epostle1

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That is why in the Mosaic Law a husband can over turn an oath his lovely has entered into immediately upon hearing of the oath, but if he does not overturn the oath upon his hearing of it, then he is bound by his lovely's oath.
I see you discovered the obscure passages of Numbers 30.

Vows Taken by A Young Woman in Her Father's House
Numbers 30:3-5

Vows Taken by a Married Woman
Numbers 30:6-8

Vows Taken by a Widow or Divorced Woman
Numbers 30:9-12

Context: Vows to "Afflict Herself"
Numbers 30:13-15

All right: so what does all of this mean? The key is in the final section; the chapter is concerned with a woman's vows to "afflict herself," which, as the great Torah scholar Jacob Milgrom points out, was interpreted by ancient Jews as referring to fasting and refraining from sexual intercourse. Similar terminology is used in descriptions of the Day of Atonement, when Jews were expected to fast and refrain from sexual intercourse (see Milgrom, Harper Collins Study Bible n. Lev 16:29; citing Targum Pseudo-Jonthan; cf. also Exod 19:15).(one day a year, no big deal) Once this terminology is clear, the whole chapter makes sense. It is discussion three kinds of vows:

1. Vows of sexual abstinence taken by a young, unmarried woman.
2. Vows of sexual abstinence taken by a married woman.
3. Vows of sexual abstinence taken by a widow or divorced woman.

In all three cases, the binding nature of the vow is dependant on whether the male party (whether father or husband), upon hearing of the vow, said nothing and in thereby consented to it. In each case, if he heard the vow and accepted it, the vow is perpetually binding.

Now, what this means is that if a young Jewish woman--say, Mary, in this instance--took a vow of sexual abstinence, and her legal husband--in our case, Joseph--heard of the vow and said nothing, then the vow stands, and she is bound to keep it. This provides a solid historical basis for Joseph and Mary having a perpetually virginal marriage: indeed, Numbers is very explicit in the final verse that if the husband changes his mind "and makes them null and void after he has heard of them," the the sin will be upon him: "he shall bear her iniquity" (Num 30:15). One can easily imagine a situation where some husbands would think better of deciding to accept such a vow! But as Matthew's Gospel tells us: Joseph was a "righteous man" (Matthew 1:19), and obedient to Torah. If Mary took a vow of sexual abstinence--and her words "How can this be, since I know not man?" in Luke are evidence that she did (Luke 1:34)--and if Joseph accepted this vow at the time of their wedding, then he would have been bound by Mosaic Law to honor her vow of sexual abstinence under the penalty of sin.
(if Joseph were to violate Mosaic Law and disobey the Torah, then Scripture wouldn't call him "righteous")

However implausible it may sound to a sex-saturated Western culture that a man would ever do such a thing, the fact of the matter is that the Old Testament appears to assume it as a real possibility. Indeed, the fact that an entire chapter of the Bible is devoted to it appears to suggest that vows of sexual abstinence on the part of women must have been a visible enough part of the culture that a law was necessary to deal with the situation! (This should come as no surprise to students of antiquity; consecrated virgins were part of the religious landscape of the ancient world).

Should there be any doubt about this, I would suggest in passing that the reader call to mind the controversy that faced Pauline churches about young widows renegging on their vows of sexual abstinence (1 Timothy 4) and the otherwise difficult and confusing passage in 1 Corinthians about what a man should do about marrying his "virgin" (1 Cor 7:36-38). If both these texts apply to the situation envisaged in Numbers 30, then Mary's situation is anything but unique in culture.

http://www.thesacredpage.com/2008/03/biblical-basis-for-marys-perpetual.html


holy family.jpg
 

VictoryinJesus

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it simply means that the God/man Jesus came to earth through the gate of a woman, not space aliens. In the same sense, you yourself came into the world through the "gate" of your mother.

John 3:6-7
[6] That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. [7] Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Did Mary’s flesh give birth to spirit then? Changing the word to say: that born of the flesh is spirit?
 
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VictoryinJesus

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does she? this is why i dislike the "bitter" translation. What caused Mary to say "God has dealt very _______ with me?" Now don't get me wrong, it might be true, but i am having a hard time believing that a bitter person would be chosen? Can we read any other indication of this "bitter?" Otoh God works in mysterious etcetc...lol

not “bitter” but “strong”? How does that fit with the woman who drinks the bitter(strong) water and is cursed? What it seems the word tells us is bitter or strong is to be 'child-less' or 'fruit-less'. In sin. Separated from God. Are you saying no 'bitter' or 'strong' cursed and fruitless person can be chosen of God? Was Paul not 'strong' or 'bitter'(cursed)(fruitless)yet chosen to be fruitful? was Israel not 'bitter' or 'strong' (cursed)(fruitless) yet chosen to be fruitful? Was Mary born reconciled to God and sinless and fruitful? Was Mary born cursed?? Or was Mary born "blessed" from her earthly mothers womb and fruitful? That is the big question. Maybe 'virgin' does mean Mary was born not of the curse the rest of mankind carries. Regarding bitter or strong consider: Numbers 5:23-24 "And the priest shall write these curses in a book, and he shall blot them out with the bitter water: [24] And he shall cause the woman to drink the bitter water that causeth the curse: and the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter."

Numbers 5:28
[28] And if the woman be not defiled, but be clean(through the blood of the Lamb); then she shall be free, and shall conceive seed.

Galatians 4:26 26But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. (free and conceive seed)

Also consider Naomi who changes her name to bitter (strong) in relation to child-less: Ruth 1:20 "And she said unto them, Call me not Naomi, call me Mara: for the Almighty hath dealt very bitterly with me."

Ruth 4:13,16
[13] So Boaz took Ruth, and she was his wife: and when he went in unto her, the Lord gave her conception, and she bare a son.... [16] And Naomi took the child, and laid it in her bosom, and became nurse unto it.
 

VictoryinJesus

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Like many words in scripture, "gate" can have more than one meaning. In the sense that it is used in post #64, it simply means that the God/man Jesus came to earth through the gate of a woman, not space aliens. In the same sense, you yourself came into the world through the "gate" of your mother. It's a language issue, not a scriptural issue. But I expected the usual rigid prejudice against Jesus' mom so common with Protestants. What many don't know is the early reformers accepted all the Marian doctrines except intercession. A Protestant can protest against Protestants who protest against reformist Protestants. It's a built in feature.
Mary was blessed among all women at her conception, AND by the fruit of her womb, Jesus. "both/AND", not "either/or" , Scripture doesn't say she was blessed only because of God in her womb. Luke 1:42




Genesis 32:25-29
[25] And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him. [26] And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. [27] And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. [28] And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. [29] And Jacob asked him , and said, Tell me , I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.

What about Jacob? He was blessed and called Israel.
 

Jay Ross

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I see you discovered the obscure passages of Numbers 30.

Vows Taken by A Young Woman in Her Father's House
Numbers 30:3-5

Vows Taken by a Married Woman
Numbers 30:6-8

Vows Taken by a Widow or Divorced Woman
Numbers 30:9-12

Context: Vows to "Afflict Herself"
Numbers 30:13-15

All right: so what does all of this mean? The key is in the final section; the chapter is concerned with a woman's vows to "afflict herself," which, as the great Torah scholar Jacob Milgrom points out, was interpreted by ancient Jews as referring to fasting and refraining from sexual intercourse. Similar terminology is used in descriptions of the Day of Atonement, when Jews were expected to fast and refrain from sexual intercourse (see Milgrom, Harper Collins Study Bible n. Lev 16:29; citing Targum Pseudo-Jonthan; cf. also Exod 19:15).(one day a year, no big deal) Once this terminology is clear, the whole chapter makes sense. It is discussion three kinds of vows:

1. Vows of sexual abstinence taken by a young, unmarried woman.
2. Vows of sexual abstinence taken by a married woman.
3. Vows of sexual abstinence taken by a widow or divorced woman.

In all three cases, the binding nature of the vow is dependant on whether the male party (whether father or husband), upon hearing of the vow, said nothing and in thereby consented to it. In each case, if he heard the vow and accepted it, the vow is perpetually binding.

Now, what this means is that if a young Jewish woman--say, Mary, in this instance--took a vow of sexual abstinence, and her legal husband--in our case, Joseph--heard of the vow and said nothing, then the vow stands, and she is bound to keep it. This provides a solid historical basis for Joseph and Mary having a perpetually virginal marriage: indeed, Numbers is very explicit in the final verse that if the husband changes his mind "and makes them null and void after he has heard of them," the the sin will be upon him: "he shall bear her iniquity" (Num 30:15). One can easily imagine a situation where some husbands would think better of deciding to accept such a vow! But as Matthew's Gospel tells us: Joseph was a "righteous man" (Matthew 1:19), and obedient to Torah. If Mary took a vow of sexual abstinence--and her words "How can this be, since I know not man?" in Luke are evidence that she did (Luke 1:34)--and if Joseph accepted this vow at the time of their wedding, then he would have been bound by Mosaic Law to honor her vow of sexual abstinence under the penalty of sin.
(if Joseph were to violate Mosaic Law and disobey the Torah, then Scripture wouldn't call him "righteous")

However implausible it may sound to a sex-saturated Western culture that a man would ever do such a thing, the fact of the matter is that the Old Testament appears to assume it as a real possibility. Indeed, the fact that an entire chapter of the Bible is devoted to it appears to suggest that vows of sexual abstinence on the part of women must have been a visible enough part of the culture that a law was necessary to deal with the situation! (This should come as no surprise to students of antiquity; consecrated virgins were part of the religious landscape of the ancient world).

Should there be any doubt about this, I would suggest in passing that the reader call to mind the controversy that faced Pauline churches about young widows renegging on their vows of sexual abstinence (1 Timothy 4) and the otherwise difficult and confusing passage in 1 Corinthians about what a man should do about marrying his "virgin" (1 Cor 7:36-38). If both these texts apply to the situation envisaged in Numbers 30, then Mary's situation is anything but unique in culture.

http://www.thesacredpage.com/2008/03/biblical-basis-for-marys-perpetual.html



That is one way of looking at a vow. It is not the only way of looking at the Numbers 30 chapter.

It start of with: -
Numbers 30 : 2: - If a man makes a vow to the Lord, or swears an oath to bind himself by some agreement, he shall not break his word; he shall do according to all that proceeds out of his mouth.

Which has no reference to sex contained within it.

Also the words for the girl in her youth: -

Numbers 30 : 3 - 5: - 3 "Or if a woman makes a vow to the Lord, and binds herself by some agreement while in her father's house in her youth, 4 and her father hears her vow and the agreement by which she has bound herself, and her father holds his peace, then all her vows shall stand, and every agreement with which she has bound herself shall stand. 5 But if her father overrules her on the day that he hears, then none of her vows nor her agreements by which she has bound herself shall stand; and the Lord will release her, because her father overruled her.

Which has no reference to sex within this passage.

It then goes on to deal with "single women", either widowed or divorced: -

Numbers 30 : 9: - "Also any vow of a widow or a divorced woman, by which she has bound herself, shall stand against her.

Notice that this verse deals with a widowed or divorced woman who has no man who can over ride any vow by which she has bound herself by. There is no reference to sex particularly in this verse

The chapter then goes on to deal with a woman who is married: -

Numbers 30 : 10 - 15: - 10 "If she vowed in her husband's house, or bound herself by an agreement with an oath, 11 and her husband heard it, and made no response to her and did not overrule her, then all her vows shall stand, and every agreement by which she bound herself shall stand. 12 But if her husband truly made them void on the day he heard them, then whatever proceeded from her lips concerning her vows or concerning the agreement binding her, it shall not stand; her husband has made them void, and the Lord will release her. 13 Every vow and every binding oath to afflict her soul, her husband may confirm it, or her husband may make it void. 14 Now if her husband makes no response whatever to her from day to day, then he confirms all her vows or all the agreements that bind her; he confirms them, because he made no response to her on the day that he heard them. 15 But if he does make them void after he has heard them, then he shall bear her guilt."

Again this passage has no direct reference to "sex" as you are implying or the great Torah scholar Jacob Milgrom points out, was interpreted by ancient Jews as referring to fasting and refraining from sexual intercourse.

This chapter has, of course, been used to justify the Roman Catholic stance of the "Virgin Mary."

The ancient Jews were also good at side stepping "sin" and justifying themselves before God even though they were indulging in idolatrous practices and hiding this practice from God.

In the case of Eve, she had gone against an agreement between God and Adam, that he and those who came after him, were not to eat of the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge. When he learnt that Eve had gone against the covenantal obligations entered into when Adam was placed in the Garden, then Adam could have brought correction and overturned Eve's actions in response to what Satan had said to her. However, Adam joined Eve in her actions after he heard of her sin, so the "sin" of Eve became his "sin" and he accepted all of the responsibility for her "sin," and accepted her guilt as well.

This is why Adam bears the blame for sin entering the world.

As such I do not hold to what you wrote in your post above or what is contained within the link you provided.

Shalom
 
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bbyrd009

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What it seems the word tells us is bitter or strong is to be 'child-less' or 'fruit-less'. In sin. Separated from God.
well, does this strike you as a good description of Mary? Or Naomi for that matter? Both had been dealt with pretty strongly, but i detect no...complaining or bitterness at all? i guess we don't have a lot to go on, but Naomi seemed anxious about possibly taking advantage of Ruth, etc, not ezackly the MO of a bitter person, at least imo.
Are you saying no 'bitter' or 'strong' cursed and fruitless person can be chosen of God? Was Paul not 'strong' or 'bitter'(cursed)(fruitless)yet chosen to be fruitful? was Israel not 'bitter' or 'strong' (cursed)(fruitless) yet chosen to be fruitful?
i would have said no on them, although maybe yes on Jonah...got any support for Paul or Israel or Mary being "bitter" though? Or even cursed/fruitless?
 
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VictoryinJesus

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i would have said no on them, although maybe yes on Jonah...got any support for Paul or Israel or Mary being "bitter" though? Or even cursed/fruitless?

I don’t know. You make good points as always. It’s just the way I understand it. Wrong...could easily be. For me though I believe all flesh is unfruitful until a life is restored and connected to the only vine that bears fruit which is Christ. If you are asking for verses I don’t have any. It just seems to be the overall theme of man must be restored to God, otherwise all labour is as Solomon said “vanity”. Again, just the way I see it at this present moment until He shows me otherwise. There are only two ways to be: either with (for) God or without (against) God. That is what I relate to bitter(strong)cursed or sweet(blessed of God and fruitful. Is there a gray area somewhere in between?Luke 11:23 He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth.

Yes, I can see there was a time where Saul was against God even though he thought he was doing God’s will. But then it changed. Paul referred to himself as a father. 1 Corinthians 4:15 “For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.”

Does “Virgin” tell us that Mary was born without sin? The word doesn’t tell us what was before her submission to God’s will. The only one the word tells us was sinless was the Son, the Lamb.

I ask, because I really don’t know: are we all (while in sin) a part of this vine?Deuteronomy 32:32-33 For their vine is of the vine of Sodom, and of the fields of Gomorrah: their grapes are grapes of gall, their clusters are bitter: [33] Their wine is the poison of dragons, and the cruel venom of asps.

Or are those chosen of God ‘naturally’ born apart of God’s vine? That is what I struggle with was Mary “blessed” from her natural mothers womb? When did Moses become a part of the vine? Was I born of a bitter cluster. Did you say it is impossible? Because this pretty much sums up how I was Romans 3:10-18
[10] As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: [11] There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. [12] They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. [13] Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: [14] Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: [15] Their feet are swift to shed blood: [16] Destruction and misery are in their ways: [17] And the way of peace have they not known: [18] There is no fear of God before their eyes.

I am sorry but it seems you are saying those that are chosen of God as Mary(blessed) or Jacob or Moses or Naomi, or Paul...never were unprofitable.
Romans 5:8 “But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.”

Does He not choose sinners? are we not all unprofitable without Christ. Wouldn’t this include Mary? Are those chosen separated the moment they are born naturally?
 

bbyrd009

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For me though I believe all flesh is unfruitful until a life is restored and connected to the only vine that bears fruit which is Christ.
can't disagree, but "Love Your Neighbor" is likely a pretty good name for Christ i guess, and that concept is universal (of course). This thing we are taught where we have the right def of Christ and everyone else is wrong is just Fascism imo. Note our perception of Babylon now; yet Jerusalem is treated the same way in Scripture. Point being that this case for the whole world being rudderless and hopelessly lost until Jesus came can't be Supported imo; Grace was not invented at the cross imo, just Installed. 1st century Israelites had the same Commandments we do; the only diff is they had the Law of sin and death. Which of course all literalists--and i mean like every, single one; take a poll, you'll see--take "spiritually," you can tell bc they will not even be able to 'splain the literal Law to you, bc all we are taught is that it was God's Idea right, thus the confusion @ "an eye for an eye" etc. Most believers don't realize that the Law was a real thing, meted out for intentional sins, which there was no sacrifice for. Intentionally telling a lie then was punishable by death.
 

bbyrd009

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There are only two ways to be: either with (for) God or without (against) God.
in Paul we get an example of a Zealot doing the wrong things for the right reasons, but it seems to me our portrait of Mary (BC) lacks any such; doesn't Michael or Gabriel or whatever even make a profession of praise for Mary? Although i could be misunderstanding there too, Scripture being Scripture. "Blessed are you among women" translates to me as "you are about to undergo a trial."

Why do you think Mary might consider herself "bitterly" dealt with anyway? Getting impreg'ed by the Spirit likely was the 'bitter' part, right? Especially in that society. Of course we have a diff impression at our remove, but Joseph was going to divorce her, which to her = death too, basically, etc