BABYLON SCAMYLON

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TheHolyBookEnds

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That, sadly, can be said of all churches' doctrine. ...
Not so.

There is a pure faith. The Seventh-day Adventist movement is the remnant of that pure faith.

Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

1 Timothy 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.​

Matthew 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.​
 

Philip James

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There is a pure faith. The Seventh-day Adventist movement is the remnant of that pure faith.

Really? Please trace your history for me.

They went out from us, but they were not really of our number; 10 if they had been, they would have remained with us. Their desertion shows that none of them was of our number.

Pax!
 

Jay Ross

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Away, away, with rum bye gum, rum bye gum rummmmm .. . . . . .

About the only viable spirit that helps to dull the flatulent sprays giving of verbal extreme pain. A bit like drinking toad juice.
 

TheHolyBookEnds

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Really? Please trace your history for me.

They went out from us, but they were not really of our number; 10 if they had been, they would have remained with us. Their desertion shows that none of them was of our number.

Pax!
Sure thing, read these books (if you do not, you desire to remain purposefully ignorant of History)

The Two Republics, by A.T. Jones.
https://www.whitehorsemedia.com/docs/the_two_republics.pdf

History of the Sabbath by J.N. Andrews.
https://www.sabbathtruth.com/portals/20/documents/History_of_the_Sabbath.pdf

Truth Triumphant, by Benjamin G. Wilkinson.

https://www.sabbathtruth.com/portals/20/documents/Truth_Triumphant.pdf

Ecclesiastical Empire, by A.T. Jones.
https://www.whitehorsemedia.com/docs/ecclesiastical_empire.pdf

The Great Empires of Prophecy by A.T. Jones.
https://www.whitehorsemedia.com/docs/the_great_empires_of_prophecy.pdf

The Great Controversy, by Ellen G. White (best summation of history):
https://egwwritings-a.akamaihd.net/pdf/en_GC.pdf

The verse you quoted, perfectly fits what happened with the Roman 'faith', they having left the truth (it is documented, read), went out from us and began their own, and persecuted all through their history, chasing that woman of faith (Revelation 12), into the wilderness for many hundreds of years, living in desert places, caves, dens, isolation, persecuted, starved, martyred, burnt, harrassed, but always sharing the Gospel in simplicity and Sabbath keepers always present.

During the Reformation, Luther, Melanchthon and others linked back up with these faithful ones, which still had their Bibles, simple Christians, such as the Vaudois, Waldenses, Passagini, Albigensi, Paulicians, Insabbati, Sabbatini and many other such names depending on the many areas of remotes places they were in.

What is amazing, is that you think that the 'church' that exalted itself to power, stooping to murder, and harass, condemn, anathemetize, plunder, lie, forge documents, and all else is the true faith. No, they are the spiritual descendant of Cain and Judas.

Vaudois:


"... [page 11] compares the "Lutherans" of this time to the fabulous hydra; when one head was cut off, two sprang up in its place. And no wonder; for the author of the "History of Heresies" writes of these martyrs, even while ascribing their patient endurance to satanic influence, "that Christianity had revived in all its primitive simplicity."

In 1544 Francis I. concluded the treaty of Crespy with the Emperor Charles V., by which the two monarchs bound themselves to exterminate heresy within their respective dominions. The king chanced to be ill of a dangerous disease brought on by his licentiousness, and for five or six weeks his life hung upon a thread. The bigoted Cardinal de Tournon, making him believe that his sufferings were a judgment from God, urged him to propitiate heaven by destroying heresy. Moved by these motives, and by misrepresentations which the victims had no opportunity of correcting, for they were never heard, Francis issued an order for the extirpation of the Waldenses of Provence, who appear to have excited the wrath of the clergy to a terrible height. These Vaudois, as they are usually called, the better to distinguish them from the Waldenses of Savoy, lived in the south-east corner of France, between the Durance and the Alps. They were a peaceable, God-fearing, industrious race,* and had been a living protest against the Church of Rome for hundreds of years--even from the days of Constantine, if their annals may be trusted. Louis XII. is reported to have called them "better Christians than himself;"† and a Romish missionary, who was sent to turn them from the error of their ways, was himself converted and forced to acknowledge that "he had learned more from the little Vaudois chil- [page 11-12, notations *, † recorded]

[* Hist. des guerres dans le Venaissin, etc. i. p.39. Published anonymously, but the author was Father Justin, a Capuchin monk. See also Muston: Israel des Alpes, 1851.

† Bousset (Hist. des Variations, liv. xi. § 143) acknowledges their piety, but calls it "feigned," and ascribes their virtues to the inspiration of the devil.]​

[page 11-12]
[chil-] dren than he had ever done at college." in the wildest valleys of the Alps, and on rocky heights where the chamois could hardly keep his footing, they built their huts and tended their flocks. They had covered a barren district with smiling harvests, "making the desert blossom as the rose." Du Bellay, governor of Piedmont, describes them as "a simple people," paying their taille to the crown and the droits to their lord more regularly than their orthodox neighbours. But their virtues were their chief crime in the eyes of the king's clerical advisers. In 1540 the Parliament of Provence had condemned twenty-three of these poor creatures to be burned alive for contumacy, and ordered their country to be laid waste. The sanguinary decree farther directed the towns of Merindol and Cabrieres, and other places, which had been the refuge and retreat of the heretics, to be razed to the ground, the caves which had served them for an asylum to be destroyed, the forests cut down, the fruit-trees roots up, the rebel chiefs put to death, and their wives and children banished for life."* Some friends of the poor Vaudois succeeded in getting the decree suspended until 1st January, 1545; when Francis I., hoping to do a meritorious work that would atone for his dissolute life, ordered it to be enforced. To John Menier, baron of Oppede, and chief president of the Parliament of Provence, was entrusted the task of carrying out the royal decree. He was one of those happily rare individuals who delight in slaughter from mere blood-thirstiness. He made no distinction between believers and heretics. The troops under his orders--wild mercenaries with more of the brigand than of the disciplined soldier--wasted the country with fire and sword. From the frightful detail of cruelties one little fact may be gathered characteristic of the man. All the inhabitants of the town of Merindol, which stood on the Durance,† were put to the sword, with the exception of [page 12-13, notations *, † recorded]

[* Cabasse: Hist. Parl. Provence

† Il n'existe plus rien du bouorg florissant de Merindol. Lacretelle: Guerres de Rel. i. p.31.]​

[page 12-13]
one person, a poor idiot, who had ransomed his life by promising a soldier two crowns. Oppede heard of it, and sending for the soldier, gave him the two crowns, and having thus bought the prisoner, ordered him to be tied to a tree and shot forthwith. "I know how to treat these people," he roared out; "I will send them, children and all, to live in hell." The small two of Cabrieres, in the same neighbourhood and a little south of the poetic Vaucluse, was treated with similar severity. Every house was destroyed; between 700 and 800 persons were killed in the streets or fields; a number of women who had fled for refuge to a barn were burned to death, and those who had escaped the sword and fire were sent to the galley "with circumstances of inhumanity," says the historian, "that would have deserved our pity on any other occasion."* "In one church," says Guerin, "I saw between four and five hundred poor souls of women and children butchered." Twenty-five women --

Praecipites atra ceu tempestate columbae Condensae--​

who had taken refuge in a cavern in the papal territory of Avignon, were smothered to death, the vice-legate kindling the fire with his own hands.† In fine, twenty-four towns and villages were destroyed and 3000 persons put to death. Such little boys and girls as the soldiers did not want were sold into slavery: they might be purchased for a crown apiece. And that none might escape, the Parliament of Provence issued a proclamation, forbidding the neighbours to offer the Vaudois either food or shelter, so that many were starved to death in the mountains.‡ [page 13-14, notations skipped.] ..." - Massacre of St. Bartholomew., preceded by a History of the Religious Wars in the reign of Charles IX., by Henry White., with Illustrations. New York: Harper & Brothers, Publishers, Franklin Square. 1868., pages 11-13 - https://archive.org/stream/massacreofstbart00whitiala#page/11/mode/1up
https://archive.org/stream/massacreofstbart00whitiala#page/12/mode/1up
https://archive.org/stream/massacreofstbart00whitiala#page/13/mode/1up

You probably think Patrick of (Scotland) Ireland was a Roman Catholic 'saint', but no, he was a Sabbath Keeper -

 
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Marymog

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How refreshing! The Catholic Encyclopedia provides a source for starting research, it is a means to an end. It is not an end in itself. As you say, it is not intended for catechesis. Not everything the ECF wrote was accepted by the Church. But anti-Catholics don't care. They can fashion weapons from the Church's teachings or anything else. The Bible never pits the Bible against the Church. Never. They do it because it is a man made tradition.

You do know that your newadvent.org "source" is not the official voice of the RCC???

I agree. "Not everything the ECF wrote was accepted by the Church". However MOST of what the ECF wrote was accepted by The Church.

For you see The Church, not the individual, is the authority to decide what we are to believe and how to interpret Scripture and what is Scripture.

Sooooo which Church do you choose to accept as your authority?

Mary
 

TheHolyBookEnds

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You do know that your newadvent.org "source" is not the official voice of the RCC???...
That would be true in the sense of the non-sense articles promoted on that site by their 'sorry-ists', but would not be true in regards the officially sanctioned CCC (Roman Catholic (online) Catechism), CCE (Roman Catholic (online) Encyclopedia) and Imprimatur and Nihil Obstat statements from various encyclicals, papal "bull", and including material from Summa Theologica, etc.
 

TheHolyBookEnds

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...Sooooo which Church do you choose to accept as your authority?...
The Bible (KJB, the preserved word of God in English) is the final authority in all matters of faith and practice.

John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Psalms 33:4 For the word of the LORD is right; and all his works are done in truth.

Psalms 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

Psalms 119:140 Thy word is very pure: therefore thy servant loveth it.

Proverbs 30:5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.

John 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;​
 

Marymog

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The Bible (KJB, the preserved word of God in English) is the final authority in all matters of faith and practice.

John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Psalms 33:4 For the word of the LORD is right; and all his works are done in truth.

Psalms 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

Psalms 119:140 Thy word is very pure: therefore thy servant loveth it.

Proverbs 30:5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.

John 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;​
Which Church gave you that Bible you quote from??

Mary
 

TheHolyBookEnds

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Which Church gave you that Bible you quote from??...
The eternal original family (church) of Heaven, the Father, Son and Holy Ghost:

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

2 Timothy 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.​

For it is His Law which is the foundation of all else (see Exodus 20:1-17, etc); Isaiah 8:20.

Notice:

Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.​

Peter and Paul already knew what scripture was:

2 Peter 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.​

If you mean involving humans:

The "church in the wilderness" (which existed before the city-state of Rome ever existed.):

Acts 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:​

Did Roman Catholicism give us the Bible? No, it existed before them (including the Vetus Latina, the Itala (before Jerome corrupted it, and he admitted to so doing)) -

http://www.biblelight.net/hebrew-canon.htm

The Bible (KJB) I have today, is simply a translation of God's perfectly preserved words (Psalms 12:6-7; Matthew 4:4; Luke 4:4; Deuteronomy 8:3; Matthew 24:35; Mark 13:31; Luke 21:33, etc).
 

amadeus

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I really don't want an in depth wrestling match here, but I would like a bit of understanding of where you on coming from with the following words you wrote here without citing a lengthy bunch of scriptures…

There is a pure faith. The Seventh-day Adventist movement is the remnant of that pure faith.

Would you then say that Christ is to be found in the fullness only within the SDA? If, yes, what would you say about this verse?
"Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not." Matt 24:23

And then again are there not other places and other people who are pleasing God who will likely be enduring to the end with Him without entering into a membership with the SDA?

"And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.
And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us." Luke 9:49-50


Please keep your answer simple in your own words with not more than a couple of scriptures to support it. Thanks.
 

Marymog

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The eternal original family (church) of Heaven, the Father, Son and Holy Ghost:

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

2 Timothy 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.​

For it is His Law which is the foundation of all else (see Exodus 20:1-17, etc); Isaiah 8:20.

Notice:

Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.​

Peter and Paul already knew what scripture was:

2 Peter 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.​

If you mean involving humans:

The "church in the wilderness" (which existed before the city-state of Rome ever existed.):

Acts 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:​

Did Roman Catholicism give us the Bible? No, it existed before them (including the Vetus Latina, the Itala (before Jerome corrupted it, and he admitted to so doing)) -

http://www.biblelight.net/hebrew-canon.htm

The Bible (KJB) I have today, is simply a translation of God's perfectly preserved words (Psalms 12:6-7; Matthew 4:4; Luke 4:4; Deuteronomy 8:3; Matthew 24:35; Mark 13:31; Luke 21:33, etc).
Fascinating.

I can't find any historical record of a "church in the wilderness" putting together a list of books that are in the bible: A table of context if you will.

Can you share that historical record with me?

Mary
 

Marymog

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The Bible (KJB, the preserved word of God in English) is the final authority in all matters of faith and practice.

John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Psalms 33:4 For the word of the LORD is right; and all his works are done in truth.

Psalms 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

Psalms 119:140 Thy word is very pure: therefore thy servant loveth it.

Proverbs 30:5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.

John 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;​
LOL.....A version of the bible (KJB or NIV etc.) is not an authority. The men who interpret it are the authority.

Kind of like the district Federal Courts interpret the law however the Supreme Court is the final authority and can overturn the district courts.

Which church (or man) is your Supreme Court (final authority).

Mary
 

Philip James

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The verse you quoted, perfectly fits what happened with the Roman 'faith', they having left the truth (it is documented, read), went out from us and began their own,

When, exactly did 'the Roman faith' go out from the Church? I have skimmed your books above and find no answer to this alternate continuos Church that you imagine.

Do you hold that Polycarp, Ignatius and Clement were part of the community? Do you have others you would name in their place?

Vaudois, Waldenses, Passagini, Albigensi, Paulicians, Insabbati, Sabbatini and many other such names

These groups are not connected with each other, and teach different things...

If you can show even ONE of these who can demonstrate they have been the apostolic Church from its beginning..

I will examine their claims...

Peace!
 
B

brakelite

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These groups are not connected with each other, and teach different things...

If you can show even ONE of these who can demonstrate they have been the apostolic Church from its beginning..

I will examine their claims...
Rome doesn't teach apostolic Christianity, yet you demand this of others? Those communities were real. They were Christian. They were missionaries. They loved each other and their neighbours and died at the hands of Catholic bigots and secular powers with Rome's approval and direction. Read their history, judge them by their fruits, and then deny their true heritage. THBE gave some great leads...I could add others if I thought you genuinely wanted to know the truth.
 

epostle1

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Did Roman Catholicism give us the Bible? No, it existed before them (including the Vetus Latina, the Itala (before Jerome corrupted it, and he admitted to so doing)) -

http://www.biblelight.net/hebrew-canon.htm

The Bible (KJB) I have today, is simply a translation of God's perfectly preserved words (Psalms 12:6-7; Matthew 4:4; Luke 4:4; Deuteronomy 8:3; Matthew 24:35; Mark 13:31; Luke 21:33, etc).
Vetus Latina was never a Bible. They were a pile of manuscripts written in OLD LATIN used along side Latin and Jerome didn't corrupt anything, he cleaned up a mess. The Duay Riems Bible predates the KJV by 11 years. A 66 book canon did not exist before the 14th century.
Your A.T. Jones writes phony history. A "Roman-state Church" never existed. It's a fabrication. A big fat lie. He gives all these minute details about PAGAN Rome and blends it in with CHRISTIAN ROME, just like Dave Hunt. And never mentions any pope, never mentions any one of 40 popes that were killed by pagan Romans, nor anything about the sever persecution of the Church in the first 3 centuries. Why? Because your cult does your thinking for you, they tell you there were no popes at this period. You will continue to believe popess EGW and ignore your own scholars.
The Bible (KJB) I have today, is simply a translation of God's perfectly preserved words
There is no such thing as a perfect divine human language.

Some... will tell you that the only acceptable version of the Bible is the King James. This position is known as King James-onlyism. Its advocates often make jokes such as, "If the King James Version was good enough for the apostle Paul, it is good enough for me," or, "My King James Version corrects your Greek text."

They commonly claim that the King James is based on the only perfect set of manuscripts we have (a false claim; there is no perfect set of manuscripts; and the ones used for the KJV were compiled by a Catholic, Erasmus), that it is the only translation that avoids modern, liberal renderings, and that its translators were extremely saintly and scholarly men.

Since the King James is also known as "the Authorized Version" (AV), its advocates sometimes argue that it is the only version to ever have been "authorized." To this one may point out that it was only authorized in the Anglican church, which now uses other translations. For a still-in print critique of King James-onlyism, see D. A. Carson, The King James Version Debate, A Plea for Realism (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1979).
https://www.catholic.com/tract/bible-translations-guide
 

Philip James

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Rome doesn't teach apostolic Christianity, yet you demand this of others?

Rome can trace its community unbroken back to the apostles.. There are others who can do the same.. Orthodox, Copts...

What you find in these ancient apoatolic communities is very similar doctrine on things like bapitsm, Eucharist, ordination, authority of the bishop...

Because these things the apostles taught in every community they established...

These communities have passed on from hand to hand, the Cup of the new covenant, the one bread, that Jesus gave to the apostles at the last supper..

If youre not in communion with the apostles, then where are you?

Pax!
 
B

brakelite

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very similar doctrine on things like bapitsm
Please find me one example of an apostle sprinkling water on a baby and calling it baptism. Heresy.

Eucharist
Please convince me that the apostles believed they were eating the literal flesh of the Son of God who was in reality, according to scripture, in the flesh seated at the side of the Father in heaven. Jesus, because He took on human flesh, is no longer omnipresent. Heresy.

ordination
Priests, by their very nature, are ordained to offer sacrifice. Jesus is not being sacrificed again and again on Catholic altars. Heresy.

authority of the bishop...

But God will have a people upon the earth to maintain the Bible, and the Bible only, as the standard of all doctrines and the basis of all reforms. The opinions of learned men, the deductions of science, the creeds or decisions of ecclesiastical councils, as numerous and discordant as are the churches which they represent, the voice of the majority, not one nor all of these should be regarded as evidence for or against any point of religious faith. Before accepting any doctrine or precept, we should demand a plain "Thus saith the Lord" in its support. EGW. This includes any pronouncement from any bishop, priest, prelate, pastor, of what ever rank or dignity. The only authority Christians are to recognise is the word of God.


Rome can trace its community unbroken back to the apostles.. There are others who can do the same.. Orthodox, Copts...
I agree that there is an unbroken line between today and the apostles in Rome...but there was also a point which was crossed and that line became warped, bent, twisted out of shape and entered into apostasy, as the bishops of Rome committed spiritual adultery as they took on the responsibilities of civil power, and used civil authority to persecute dissenters.
 
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epostle1

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Anybody care to do some scholarly research on what these heretics actually believed and practiced? No Protestant in their right mind would want them as their spiritual forefathers....if they knew.

Vaudois, Waldenses, Passagini, Albigensi, Paulicians, Insabbati, Sabbatini

Sabbatini is a popular Italian surname named after a lake in the 4th century.

Insabbati is another name for the Waldenses.

Peter Waldo was an extreme Catholic, and was a layman. He wanted recognition for his home made theology and rigid practices and went to the Pope. He was later ruled a heretic and started his own church. Claiming him as a forefather makes no sense.
Who Were the Waldenses? Early Evangelicals?
 

Davy

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What the Reformers believed with pointing to the pope as the Antichrist was based on the persecutions of their day. If they lived today, with Israel having become a nation today, and with orthodox Jews in Jerusalem already having the materials ready to build a third temple, the Reformers would no doubt rethink their old Antichrist beliefs.
 

Enoch111

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Anybody care to do some scholarly research on what these heretics actually believed and practiced?
Since it is Catholics who wiped out these Christians and then wrote their history, we should take accusations against them with a pound of salt.

What is more relevant is that Roman Catholicism has not changed, and continues to promote its false Christianity as true Christianity. That is really what you should research from Scripture.