If We Protestants Truly Hated Catholics...

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GodsGrace

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Hmm, this is actually an interesting point that I had not really spent any time considering before (now that I get your gist, sorry). And I suppose you are correct, to a point. Or maybe not? I think the Reformation made some startling breaks from the RCC, and once they managed to get the movement really established, there were many key doctrines that were seen as essential. In fact, there still are today. I suppose they would be what we call the "closed hand" issues...those essentials of faith that we would say if you don't believe, then you would not be a "Christian". Most Protestant Churches would probably enforce those essentials within their covenant members.
I think where we probably differ from the RCC, and why we've ended up having all the little "off-shoots" of "Protestantism", is because we do allow for differences and liberty within the "open-hand" issues. So we saw groups breaking off to suit each other there. But the more leniant we were in those issues, I suspect, the greater the chance was for the greater 'break-aways'....the differences in the essential issues, the ones that really matter. That's where we began to see what we would call the 'christian cults' begin to form. Bits and pieces of truth worked in around lots of areas of human made doctrine.
So...while we Protestants value our open hand liberty, there seems to be something to the stricter RCC approach!
I agree. Interesting idea of how we were liberal with the small things first, and then the more important doctrine.

All cults have some truth in them. Too much going away from the bible and Jesus and honing in on one man, the more human and secular the "religion" will be and the farther from God.

You're also right about how this came about slowly. I know an Assembly of God church in Milan that had a schism. And what was it about? The divinity of Jesus!
The persons who left believe Jesus was not God but the Messiah, being understood as the anointed one sent by God to relay His message to mankind.

Even in children's classrooms some rules must apply to keep order or they won't learn anything. Yes, maybe we've been too lenient? I've started threads on what it means to be Christian and many will say "just believe in Jesus". Well, what does that mean anyway! Difficult to balance spirituality with rules...
 
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bbyrd009

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If "Rome" (The Church) doesn't have the authority to PROPERLY interpret scripture then please do tell me.....Who does???
and you somehow expect that this will somehow be accepted in "Christian" forums, Mary?
Who decides who the wolves and the sheep are????
why not listen to Paul there? I know the wolves will rush in as soon as I leave, not sparing the flock
Who decides who "the wise" are?????
i guess you could always get a king to decide all that for you if you like Mary, but imo i would contemplate the warnings in 1 Samuel 8 first ok
Your not interested in trying to offend me and then a few words later refer to my Church as a "Whore".
just quoting one of your kings, Mary, i thot that was accepted RCC dogma, i mean i am offended too; but at "Saint" Augustine, the king who said it
Either you are a liar or I am misunderstanding you. Which is it???
why couldn't both be true? i suspect they both are lol
 
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bbyrd009

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bbyrd009

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Maybe a nine year old could, but you didn't.
why belabour the obvious, what is the point of having a discussion on the merits of emancipation with a Plantation Owner, etc
i mean we could go into it if you want, but i doubt you are gonna want to, we'd be going right to your "Saint" Augustine, etc, you wouldn't know if you were coming or going in about 3 exchanges with me prolly lol.

i invite you to make your own case that Rome in its Decadence Period was somehow the legit successor, and compare your convincing to your conviction, if you will. Or bam defend your terminally uninformed Saint now--the one who really offended us, right--and convict me if you can, we're just talking, i can take it.
 
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BreadOfLife

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Well, is overcoming through belief in the death burial and resurrection and not of works?

1 Jhn 5:4-5 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. 5Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Rev 2:26-27 To the one who overcomes and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations— 27that one ‘will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery’ —just as I have received authority from my Father.
I don't know HOW many posts it's going to take before you realize that "BELIEVE" means "SURRENDER".
In Christ - to believe Him is to follow Him - and to follow Him is to OBEY Him.

You don't get to sit on your fanny and be a spectator . . .
 
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bbyrd009

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No people. Just by myself on one occasion. On others my wife and I both witnessed together. I have several instances etched into my memory, none of them particularly pleasant.
And one other occasion indeed involving a friend of ours speaking an ancient native language unknown to her but known to her husband. She was a friend. Yet the hatred that night she displayed was entirely supernatural. She had a slight build, but to all her husband strength to keep her from mauling me.
i dunno if i am misreading or what, but you testify to an occasion "by yourself," and then relate a story about a scenario with other people, right, so i am confused there i guess sorry. Your wife and yourself witnessed what, exactly? That might serve
 

Philip James

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I don't see how the CC could ever make a change regarding the Eucharist and confession. Those are two big stumbling blocks

The Eucharist has been and always will be a stumbling block 'this is a hard teaching who can accept it'

When one comes to know that the Eucharist IS Jesus, it is impossible for them to turn their back on Him...

You too! Are welcome to come to the wedding feast of the Lamb of God!

Pax!
 
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BreadOfLife

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Look...no doubt there might be some onus on them for not seeking further themselves. But just as you complain that people are ALWAYS blaming everyone but themselves, you seem incapable of seeing that any fault might lie within the RCC. And that is not healthy or realistic.
But, as you don't seem to be getting me, I might just drop it at this point.
I never said that "nobody" lies in the Catholic Church.
I merely said that the math simply doesn't add up when it comes to the false claims of Grams.

I also said that SHE is responsible for her refusal to own or read a Bible.
God will NOT ask us who was responsible for US not doing what we were supposed to do. WE are responsible.
 

BreadOfLife

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BOL, the papacy - the union of Roman Catholic church and state - could not have possibly existed in the 2nd century, because the ENTHRONED STATE SUPREME LEADER ROMAN EMPEROR CAESARS WHO WERE WORSHIPED AS DEITY WOULD HAVE HAD JUST A TAD BIT OF A PROBLEM WITH BEING IN COMPETITION WITH THE BISHOP OF ROME TAKING THEIR PAGAN PREROGATIVES TO HIMSELF - LIKE NEXT LEVEL "SWIFT, CERTAIN DEATH" PROBLEM.

BTW, I took the liberty of borrowing Pius XII's Encyclical use of "Roman Catholic church" when referring to his Roman Catholic church - I figure if he can do it, so can I, or are you still making a fool of yourself by telling people here that it is a term that has historically only been used by Protestants?
And I've already PROVEN that you are wrong.

As I educated you earlier - Irenaeus lists ALL of the Popes from Peter to his day. Tertullian ALSO writes about the office of the Papacy - and BOTH were writing in the SECOND century.

You don't have an historical leg to stand on - just ignorance as usual . . .
 

GodsGrace

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I don't know HOW many posts it's going to take before you realize that "BELIEVE" means "SURRENDER".
In Christ - to believe Him is to follow Him - and to follow Him is to OBEY Him.

You don't get to sit on your fanny and be a spectator . . .
I wouldn't have added the final sentence...
But it's the truth !!

Many want to BELIEVE IN JESUS,,,
but some say it's not necessary to
FOLLOW and OBEY JESUS...

Which is a total CONTRADICTION!
 

GodsGrace

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The Eucharist has been and always will be a stumbling block 'this is a hard teaching who can accept it'

When one comes to know that the Eucharist IS Jesus, it is impossible for them to turn their back on Him...

You too! Are welcome to come to the wedding feast of the Lamb of God!

Pax!
Thanks for the invite PJ.
Did you know I used to be Catholic?
I taught Catechism as recently as 3 years ago.
But I've been Protestant for at least 35 years.
Been a believer longer than that.
Luther believed in the transubstantiation, if I remember right.
Confession developed into what it is today.

I never had any problem with Mary or many other catholic doctrine.
Confession does bother me still...it just can't be right. But we do have John 20 to deal with.

As far as transubstantiation....Yes. John 6:54 means TO CHEW.

We'll know when we get there.
 

epostle1

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LOL
I know catholics who won't read a bible UNLESS there's a priest present!
I did a bible study on Mathew with some women friends (all catholics here) with the knowledge and consent of the priest (in my home) and some wouldn't come because he wasn't going to be there. It's probably not like this in the states, but catholics haven't been reading the bible for long and some don't even understand WHY it's good to know what it says.

As to the sacraments being necessary for salvation, do you have the paragraph you're depending on? I know that sacraments provide grace, not salvation. (except for baptism and confession - they're necessary for salvation).
If you don't have it readily avx, no problem ... I'll check out mine.
You must know a lot of stupid Catholics.

Pope Francis: Treat the Bible like we treat our cell phone

read bible.jpg

jerome.png
Sacraments, an outward sign of an inward grace, is Christ with us in a special way from the cradle to the grave. They are necessary for Catholics for salvation. They are not necessary for those in a non-sacramental community.
Christ didn’t abolish ritual — He perfected it

Catholics and Protestants approach Scripture differently. Catholics read/hear Scripture in public worship (Liturgy)
Protestants read/study Scripture at home and in church.

One approach is not inferior to the other.

Catholics may not know chapter and verse numbers as well as Protestants, but Catholics generally can recount the teachings.
 

Heb 13:8

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ok Heb, as long as you can find it, that is the important part i s'pose, bam go with that

James 2:19 You believe that there is one God (heis theō). Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder.

James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God (episteusen theō), and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend.
 

Heb 13:8

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I don't know HOW many posts it's going to take before you realize that "BELIEVE" means "SURRENDER".
In Christ - to believe Him is to follow Him - and to follow Him is to OBEY Him.

You don't get to sit on your fanny and be a spectator . . .

And that's what believers do BOL. While you're accusing them, they're following God. Faith is more than the internet or religious avatars and ego's.
 

GodsGrace

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You must know a lot of stupid Catholics.

Pope Francis: Treat the Bible like we treat our cell phone

Sacraments, an outward sign of an inward grace, is Christ with us in a special way from the cradle to the grave. They are necessary for Catholics for salvation. They are not necessary for those in a non-sacramental community.
Christ didn’t abolish ritual — He perfected it

Catholics and Protestants approach Scripture differently. Catholics read/hear Scripture in public worship (Liturgy)
Protestants read/study Scripture at home and in church.

One approach is not inferior to the other.

Catholics may not know chapter and verse numbers as well as Protestants, but Catholics generally can recount the teachings.
First you said I must know a lot of stupid catholics.
Then you explained why they're stupid...

They hear/read scripture in liturgies.
How many are really listening?
Is the reading ever really explained?
You say they could recount the teachings...which ones?
Not much is taught in the CC.
Not the fault of the parishioners...fault of lazy priests who want to be pastors but don't want to be teachers.
I would say that, yes, one approach is inferior to the other.
The protestant approach is far better.
 

epostle1

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First you said I must know a lot of stupid catholics.
Then you explained why they're stupid...

They hear/read scripture in liturgies.
How many are really listening?
The same number you would expect from any given congregation of a full range of age groups.
Is the reading ever really explained?
Yes, and applied to the here and now; most of the time. In depth scripture study is available in every diocese by qualified teachers, not sideways sharing. Priests are not obligated to quote what had just been read out loud.
You say they could recount the teachings...which ones?
A list would do no good, your post is too hostile and arrogant to receive it. I could roughly recount the parables and other parts of Scripture but I don't think you would be satisfied.
Not much is taught in the CC.
A complete summary of all teachings is available on line, plus every encyclical ever proclaimed. For grown ups, spoon feeding isn't done. Children get taught every day in school. Church and schools is the secondary source of education, parents are primary. Less-than-perfect parents is the main reason people leave the Church, IMO.
Not the fault of the parishioners...fault of lazy priests who want to be pastors but don't want to be teachers.
I've met priests who work 18 hours a day. Some priests are better teachers than others. That doesn't give you the right to make insulting remarks.
I would say that, yes, one approach is inferior to the other.
The protestant approach is far better.
I've always found your posts pleasant. Suddenly, you become this angry anti-Catholic, who's expertise is based on the last time you spectated (not participated) a Mass at a wedding or a funeral, and most likely decades before that. I want to be your friend, but how if you are going to be a prejudiced Catholic basher???

2 Timothy 3:
[14] But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, (Tradition)
knowing from whom you learned it (Magisterium)
[15] and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings which are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. (Scriptures)
[16] All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
[17] that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

Note verse 14-15. It admonishes Timothy to do three things:
1) Remember what you have learned and firmly believed (Tradition)
2) Know from whom you learned it (Magisterium)
3) Know you have the Scriptures

The Bible on St. Paul's list comes in third, not first. He actually gives here the traditional Catholic teaching on the three sources of sound teaching.
In verse 15 he goes into an excursus on the Bible. This brief excursus emphasizes the value of the Bible and recommends a fourfold method of exegesis. This verse was used in the pre-Reformation Church as a proof text for the Quadriga which was the standard Catholic approach to the Bible. The Quadriga method used the following four categories:

Literal/Literary (teaching) - the text as it is written
Analogical (reproof) - matters of faith
Anagogical (correction) - matters of hope/prophecy
Moral (training in righteousness) - matters of charity

The analogical, anagogical and moral senses of the Bible were known collectively as the spiritual senses, still taught today.
The 'reformers' rejected the BIBLICAL fourfold method of exegesis in favor of a more literal approach,
and ignored 2 Tim 3:16!!!

+...

CCC113
2. Read the Scripture within "the living Tradition of the whole Church". According to a saying of the Fathers, Sacred Scripture is written principally in the Church's heart rather than in documents and records, for the Church carries in her Tradition the living memorial of God's Word, and it is the Holy Spirit who gives her the spiritual interpretation of the Scripture (". . . according to the spiritual meaning which the Spirit grants to the Church"81).
Catechism of the Catholic Church


bible alone.jpg
[/QUOTE]
 
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Naomi25

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One need only to witness the varied forms of Catholicism in indigenous communities all around the world to understand that there is no strict approach in doctrine within Catholicism...so long as everyone calls the Pope master.

It's a bit of a catch 22. The nature of Christianity is to hold out liberty, especially in the open-handed issues. We ought to have understanding, love and even unity with our brothers and sisters who think differently on something like end times views (for example). But because of that liberty, we do see disunity, which is sad. And I don't think we will see our differences discarded in this life, humanity being what it is. But it does remind us that in the world to come, when we live with Christ, not only will sorrow be gone, but harmony will prevail. It's a nice thought and one that I think we all long for.

I honestly don't know enough about Catholicism to know how they deal with serious off-shoots of doctrine within their denomination. Do they let is slide, or eject those teachers? I'm not sure. But if your statement "calls the Pope master" is concerning. I haven't done any serious reading on how most Catholics see the Pope, but if they truly think he is their master, rather than Christ, then that is very disconcerting.
 

epostle1

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It's a bit of a catch 22. The nature of Christianity is to hold out liberty, especially in the open-handed issues. We ought to have understanding, love and even unity with our brothers and sisters who think differently on something like end times views (for example). But because of that liberty, we do see disunity, which is sad. And I don't think we will see our differences discarded in this life, humanity being what it is. But it does remind us that in the world to come, when we live with Christ, not only will sorrow be gone, but harmony will prevail. It's a nice thought and one that I think we all long for.

I honestly don't know enough about Catholicism to know how they deal with serious off-shoots of doctrine within their denomination. Do they let is slide, or eject those teachers? I'm not sure. But if your statement "calls the Pope master" is concerning. I haven't done any serious reading on how most Catholics see the Pope, but if they truly think he is their master, rather than Christ, then that is very disconcerting.
Nowhere did I say "calls the Pope master".
Catholics see the Pope as a fellow human being, who confesses his sins like Catholics are supposed to. One title you don't see is "Servant of the Servants of the People of God". Another: "First Among Equals"
The Pope is a regular bishop for the diocese of Rome, the same as any bishop anywhere in the world.
Down through history, whoever bishop held that "chair" becomes Pope, because it's the Chair of Peter.
Pope Clement was the 4th Pope while the Apostle John was still alive. John could not be Pope because Jesus already gave him his own chair.
The Pope is head of state for the smallest country in the world, his office is traced back to St. Peter in succession, is spiritual leader of 1.2 billion people, and is the moral authority for nations (few listen to him anyway).
We call him "Holy Father" because his office is holy.
He prefers to eat with the homeless rather than big shots.
On Holy Thursday he washed the feet of prisoners and drug addicts.
I could go on about our beloved Pope.
Loyal Catholics give him the love and respect fitting for his office, and we get excited when we see him.

Contrary to what is propagated by anti-Catholics, the pope is not a power hungry control freak.


pope accept jesus.jpg
 
B

brakelite

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It's a bit of a catch 22. The nature of Christianity is to hold out liberty, especially in the open-handed issues. We ought to have understanding, love and even unity with our brothers and sisters who think differently on something like end times views (for example). But because of that liberty, we do see disunity, which is sad. And I don't think we will see our differences discarded in this life, humanity being what it is. But it does remind us that in the world to come, when we live with Christ, not only will sorrow be gone, but harmony will prevail. It's a nice thought and one that I think we all long for.

I honestly don't know enough about Catholicism to know how they deal with serious off-shoots of doctrine within their denomination. Do they let is slide, or eject those teachers? I'm not sure. But if your statement "calls the Pope master" is concerning. I haven't done any serious reading on how most Catholics see the Pope, but if they truly think he is their master, rather than Christ, then that is very disconcerting.
In reference to epostles post above...that is what you get when she puts someone on ignore...confusion as to who is talking to who.
When I wrote of the liberalism of Catholicism is relation to certain cultures, I have seen this personally in Maoridom in New Zealand. IN some parts Catholicism is very strong, yet they hold tightly to many of their old ways which in reality is spiritualism and witchcraft. These things are tolerated by the church so long as they can be classed as Catholic. I believe the it is similar in places like Haiti with voodoo...Brazil with santaria...Africa and Asia also with their local versions of spiritualism. Conversion, as a supernatural change in character and nature to an individual, is not a strong point in Catholic teaching...conversion to a Catholic means more a change in profession and loyalty...from the archbishop of Canterbury to the Pope for example, as was the case with the Anglican priest Newman who went on to become a cardinal. Nothing about converting from sinner to saint, just a nominal change in membership details.
Which is why when after becoming a Christian in 1976 and going back to church after 10 years absence, when I mentioned my (true) conversion to the priest, his face looked like he had swallowed a lemon. He didn't have a clue what I was talking about, and I don't think most Catholics would.
 
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Phoneman777

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And I've already PROVEN that you are wrong.

As I educated you earlier - Irenaeus lists ALL of the Popes from Peter to his day. Tertullian ALSO writes about the office of the Papacy - and BOTH were writing in the SECOND century.

You don't have an historical leg to stand on - just ignorance as usual . . .
Sorry, but you aren't capable of educating myself nor any Protestant of anything. Conversely, I've educated YOU about Pius' legitimization of "Roman Catholic church" so that you may cease from deriding Protestants for our use of the same, and I'll show you now that there's no way the "papacy" could have existed before Rome's fall because that which is the very definition of the papacy - the union of church and state - could not exist while Caesars still reigned supreme - because the Caesars would not have taken too kindly to some guy sitting in a Roman Cathedral wearing what looked to them as a Dagon priest "fish hat" and taking to himself the prerogatives of the Caesars: namely, claiming to be god and the supreme authority on religious and secular affairs.

I hope that by this irrefutable explanation that you now see the "papacy" - the union of the Catholic church and the secular state - could not have possibly existed before the fall of Rome in 476 A.D.
 
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