Tribulation VS Great Tribulation

JesusIsFaithful · Aug 4, 2018

There is tribulation; and then there is the great tribulation as described below.

Matthew 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

One could say that the only way for the days of the elect's sake be shorteded is by the pre great trib rapture.

Christ explains the time of the tribulation before the great tribulation by how false prophets will come in to lead the churches astray; hence the movements of the "Spirit" as if going here or there is how one can get closer to the "Spirit of Christ" in hypocrisy when He is in us forever.

Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

So what follows after that tribulation of the falling away from the faith is the pre great trib rapture event.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

So how do we know that there will be a consequence for those that fall away from the faith?

Look at the warning to the church at Thyatira..

Revelation 2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. 24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. 25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

That includes preaching another baptism with the Holy Ghost that comes with evidence of tongues or by a sign of tongues which happens to comes with no interpretation at all, thus identifying with Revelation 2:24 in knowing the utter depths of Satan as they speak.

1 Timothy 4:1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

Isaiah 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?

So we are in the tribulation now as many are falling away from the faith in giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils as God is not the author of confusion while those who chase after what they believe is the Holy Spirit to receive again after a sign, thus committing spiritual fornication and thus spiritual adultery.

1 Corinthians 14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. 33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Proverbs 25:26 A righteous man falling down before the wicked is as a troubled fountain, and a corrupt spring. 27 It is not good to eat much honey: so for men to search their own glory is not glory. 28 He that hath no rule over his own spirit is like a city that is broken down, and without walls.

Matthew 16:A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.

2 Corinthians 11:1Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me. 2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. 3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

That is the tribulation we are living in now as we see all those pointing to the movements of the Spirit in Pensacola Outpouring, the Toronto's Blessings, Ernest Angeley's Healing Crusade, & etc. or to even go to their local church for the Spirit of Christ to fall on them by the sign of tongues. It is hardly the great tribulation that will follow after the Son of Man comes.

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

That great tribulation has not come yet because the church at Thyatira have been warned to repent from their spiritual adultery in the tribulation we are living in to avoid the consequence of being cast off into the great tribulation.

Davy · Aug 5, 2018

There actually is no such thing as a pre-trib rapture written of in God's Holy Writ. The event order Jesus gave for His 2nd coming and gathering of the saints in Matthew 24 is for immediately after... the time of great tribulation by the coming Antichrist/false Messiah.

Indeed, the 'Toronto blessing' movements reveal a pagan working in those Churches, as many of those same manifestations are found in eastern religions which call it the Kundalini awakening:

JesusIsFaithful · Aug 6, 2018

Davy said:
There actually is no such thing as a pre-trib rapture written of in God's Holy Writ. The event order Jesus gave for His 2nd coming and gathering of the saints in Matthew 24 is for immediately after... the time of great tribulation by the coming Antichrist/false Messiah.

Indeed, the 'Toronto blessing' movements reveal a pagan working in those Churches, as many of those same manifestations are found in eastern religions which call it the Kundalini awakening:

Thank you for sharing that video.

But do reconsider, brother Davy, because the warnings Jesus has given are for an oppressive time that the believers are in, that is not descriptive as it would be at the end of the great tribulation, now is it?

Saved believers invited to come to the King's Supper are making excuses for the everyday cares of life and their loved ones in Luke 14:15-24

Jesus warned that the cares of life can be a snare for those that will tempt them to love their lives more than the Bridegroom to leave with Him for why the exhortation to pray to be worthy to escape what is coming on the earth in order to stand before Him; Luke 21:33-36

Jesus warned of that snare by referring to Lot's wife in order to escape destruction.

Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. 31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. 32 Remember Lot's wife.

Do note how idyllic the times that the believers will be found in as described in Luke 17:27-28. Now really imagine how bad it will be for the believers at the end of the great tribulation when they need the mark of the beast in order to buy & sell in that great tribulation while the devil wage war on the saints during the great tribulation. Now zip towards the end of that great tribulation as the armies of the 2/3 rd of the world is marching against Jerusalem with the devil leading the way before He comes back as the King of kings and you think that will be an idyllic time for believers to be living in before His return?

So Jesus will be returning as the Bridegroom for the abiding bride of Christ to attend the Marriage Supper above BEFORE He returns with the pre raptured saints at the end of the great tribulation as King of kings to establish His thousand year reign on earth by doing away with Satan and the world's armies marching at Jerusalem.

Willie T · Aug 6, 2018

Why would you be warned to flee to the mountains today? Or why should it concern you if all this bad stuff comes on a Sunday, or in the Winter time, or if a woman is nursing... or what part of the house you are in, etc? If a nuclear missile hits down the street, your vaporized body ain't going to be around to worry about any of those things.
I am amazed that seemingly intelligent people can read so much "futuristic fantasy" into that passage.

JesusIsFaithful · Aug 6, 2018

Willie T said:
Why would you be warned to flee to the mountains today? Or why should it concern you if all this bad stuff comes on a Sunday, or in the Winter time, or if a woman is nursing... or what part of the house you are in, etc? If a nuclear missile hits down the street, your vaporized body ain't going to be around to worry about any of those things.
I am amazed that seemingly intelligent people can read so much "futuristic fantasy" into that passage.

Well, if you can dial back on the intelligence insult, that whole discourse in Matthew 24th chapter started after Jesus had prophesied that the stones of those Temple will be thrown down for when His disciples had asked Him 3 questions.

Matthew 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

The first question is towards what Jesus has said about when the stones of the Temple will be thrown down. That would be 70 A.D. , right?

Then they had asked for the sign of His coming which is a separate entire question that obviously is not related to when the stones of the Temple being thrown down as it was in 70 A.D.

Then they had asked when the end of the world will be which again, it did not happen when the stones of the Temple were thrown down in 70 A.D.

Wisdom is needed here because Jesus is answering those 3 questions and not necessarily in order as He has gone back and forth in answering those 3 questions.

So for the the verse you had quoted in question;

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

I see Jesus referring to the 3 angels that will set up the hour of temptation that shall try all remaining upon the earth for the coming great tribulation after the pre great trib rapture as the first angel is preaching the everlasting gospel everywhere so that everybody will know the gospel without excuse;

The second angel will declare Babylon ( USA ) as fallen as one third of the earth is burned up, setting the stage for the new world order and the mark of the beast system to survive in that new world order on the 2/3 rd remaining part of the earth.

The third angel will inform everyone the consequence for taking the mark of the beast to buy & sell which is the lake of fire... no ifs, nor buts about it.

So everyone will know the gospel, everyone will know of the calamity of fire on that one third of teh earth with America as fallen, and everyone will know the consequence for taking the mark of the beast which is the lake of fire as setting up the hour of temptation that shall try all remaining on the earth.

So what follows is the event in the great tribulation because it cannot be applied to the 70 A.D. event, even though preterists argues that someone did enter the Holy of holies and defiled it as such before destroying the temple. Maybe so, but the prophesy below did not happen after the everlasting gospel was preached everywhere and so..

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

So it is fro Israel as they are the only ones keeping the sabbath during that great tribulation and not the saints. Do note how Jesus ascribed the event as only happening during the great tribulation below.

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Now we can debate how verse 22 applies, but I hope you can see why I take that part of Jesus's answer as having happened after the rapture event when the 3 angels are setting up the hour of temptation that shall try all upon the earth.

Davy · Aug 6, 2018

JesusIsFaithful said:
Thank you for sharing that video.

But do reconsider, brother Davy, because the warnings Jesus has given are for an oppressive time that the believers are in, that is not descriptive as it would be at the end of the great tribulation, now is it?

Saved believers invited to come to the King's Supper are making excuses for the everyday cares of life and their loved ones in Luke 14:15-24

Jesus warned that the cares of life can be a snare for those that will tempt them to love their lives more than the Bridegroom to leave with Him for why the exhortation to pray to be worthy to escape what is coming on the earth in order to stand before Him; Luke 21:33-36

Jesus warned of that snare by referring to Lot's wife in order to escape destruction.

Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. 31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. 32 Remember Lot's wife.

Do note how idyllic the times that the believers will be found in as described in Luke 17:27-28. Now really imagine how bad it will be for the believers at the end of the great tribulation when they need the mark of the beast in order to buy & sell in that great tribulation while the devil wage war on the saints during the great tribulation. Now zip towards the end of that great tribulation as the armies of the 2/3 rd of the world is marching against Jerusalem with the devil leading the way before He comes back as the King of kings and you think that will be an idyllic time for believers to be living in before His return?

So Jesus will be returning as the Bridegroom for the abiding bride of Christ to attend the Marriage Supper above BEFORE He returns with the pre raptured saints at the end of the great tribulation as King of kings to establish His thousand year reign on earth by doing away with Satan and the world's armies marching at Jerusalem.

Sorry, I do not adhere to a pre-trib rapture theory; it's nowhere written of in God's Word is why. And I know if I rely solely on a doctrine of men or just my own desires, I won't be aligning with what God's Word reveals is going to happen. Better to stick to what His Word shows us and let the chips fall where they may.

There is only one 2nd coming written of regarding our Lord Jesus' return. It is the timing of the "day of the Lord" which is about the final day of this world, and He will destroy that "man of sin" in Jerusalem playing God of 2 Thess.2 that Paul warned us about. That is when the time of great tribulation will end.

When Jesus returns He will be bringing the 'asleep' saints with Him that had already died (1 Thess.4). Those have nothing to do with some pre-trib rapture idea of men.

JesusIsFaithful · Aug 6, 2018

Davy said:
Sorry, I do not adhere to a pre-trib rapture theory; it's nowhere written of in God's Word is why. And I know if I rely solely on a doctrine of men or just my own desires, I won't be aligning with what God's Word reveals is going to happen. Better to stick to what His Word shows us and let the chips fall where they may.

There is only one 2nd coming written of regarding our Lord Jesus' return. It is the timing of the "day of the Lord" which is about the final day of this world, and He will destroy that "man of sin" in Jerusalem playing God of 2 Thess.2 that Paul warned us about. That is when the time of great tribulation will end.

When Jesus returns He will be bringing the 'asleep' saints with Him that had already died (1 Thess.4). Those have nothing to do with some pre-trib rapture idea of men.

It doesn't matter if you do not adhere to a pre trib rapture theory because as you say we stick to the Word of God in what He shows us, and if you believe that, then let the chips fall where they may by addressing His words in according to your beliefs.

So answer this; how bad will it be for the believers at the end of the great tribulation for when you believe is the only time He will actually come? Describe it as per His words as how bad it will be in summary.

Then ask yourself how can the description of the times the believers will be living in His warnings be applicable to the end of the great tribulation when believers would be tempted not to leave? How can any believer be tempted not to leave in a world where there is a war waging on the saints?

I am not asking you in regard to what I believe, but I am asking you in according to your beliefs, in according to His words, how that world can be idyllic at the end of the great tribulation for believers to be tempted not to leave? This is addressing His words in according to your beliefs.

2 Thessalonians 2nd chapter is talking about 2 event from which the iniquity that will cause falling away from the faith in large numbers in the latter days was even happening back in Paul's day in why God will judge His House first by His appearing as the other event is in regards to the middle of the great tribulation for the reason why the Lord will come back to judge the world at the end of the great tribulation.

Davy · Aug 6, 2018

JesusIsFaithful said:
It doesn't matter if you do not adhere to a pre trib rapture theory because as you say we stick to the Word of God in what He shows us, and if you believe that, then let the chips fall where they may by addressing His words in according to your beliefs.

No, that underlined part doesn't work. To heed God's Word as written is the opposite of "in according to your beliefs". We are to believe what is written, verifying with two or more Bible witnesses.

So answer this; how bad will it be for the believers at the end of the great tribulation for when you believe is the only time He will actually come? Describe it as per His words as how bad it will be in summary.

Mark 13:13
13 And ye shall be hated of all men for My name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
KJV

Luke 17:33
33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
KJV

Matt 10:28
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
KJV

That should show you enough that we are not to fear death of our flesh, but instead fear Him Who is able to destroy our soul in the lake of fire.

Then ask yourself how can the description of the times the believers will be living in His warnings be applicable to the end of the great tribulation when believers would be tempted not to leave? How can any believer be tempted not to leave in a world where there is a war waging on the saints?

There again is the matter of relying on your own wishes of how things will happen, instead of heeding God's Holy Writ of how He said things will happen. What your words show is that you value your flesh more than Christ's Salvation promise. If you valued His Salvation promise more, then you would not be afraid to make a stand for Him during the tribulation like He commanded us to do:

Mark 13:11
11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.
KJV

I am not asking you in regard to what I believe, but I am asking you in according to your beliefs, in according to His words, how that world can be idyllic at the end of the great tribulation for believers to be tempted not to leave? This is addressing His words in according to your beliefs.

Well, actually you are not addressing His words. Instead you are using your own ideas instead of heeding what is written.

2 Thessalonians 2nd chapter is talking about 2 event from which the iniquity that will cause falling away from the faith in large numbers in the latter days was even happening back in Paul's day in why God will judge His House first by His appearing as the other event is in regards to the middle of the great tribulation for the reason why the Lord will come back to judge the world at the end of the great tribulation.

2 Thessalonians 2 did not happen back in Apostle Paul's day. It is still future to us, and will happen when the coming pseudo-Christ of Matt.24:23-26 arrives in Jerusalem.

Paul in 2 Thess.2 was giving them the order of Christ's coming and gathering of the saints because some false ones among the Thessalonians were passing wrong information around ("nor by letter as from us"), and he had to correct their understanding by giving them the order again ("Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?").

Paul stated emphatically that Christ's coming and gathering of the saints will not occur until 2 events happen first, the event of the great apostasy of believers, and the appearing of the "man of sin" sitting in the temple of God (in Jerusalem), proclaiming to be God, and exalting himself over all that is worshiped or that is called God. The falling away (apostasy) will no doubt be because of that false one coming to play Christ, the very pseudochristos that Jesus warned of in Matthew 24:23-26, which Dr. James Strong defined as 'a spurious Messiah'.

That deceptive event Paul called the "strong delusion" in 2 Thess.2. And it will be just that for the apostates who will believe that pseudo-Christ is our Lord Jesus come to fly them away.

Would you like me to show what God's Word actually says about the first one taken also? It is not at all like how pre-trib rapture doctors teach.

JesusIsFaithful · Aug 6, 2018

Davy said:
No, that underlined part doesn't work. To heed God's Word as written is the opposite of "in according to your beliefs". We are to believe what is written, verifying with two or more Bible witnesses.

As long as you do not gloss over His words in order for what you believe is true.

Mark 13:13
13 And ye shall be hated of all men for My name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
KJV

Luke 17:33
33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
KJV

Matt 10:28
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
KJV

That should show you enough that we are not to fear death of our flesh, but instead fear Him Who is able to destroy our soul in the lake of fire.

So it is bad.. at least you acknowledge how bad it will be at the end of the great tribulation then albeit, you seem to think Jesus is not faithful in doing a good job in the keeping of their souls while they suffer the great tribulation. See 1 Peter 4:17-19 in the KJV only.

There again is the matter of relying on your own wishes of how things will happen, instead of heeding God's Holy Writ of how He said things will happen. What your words show is that you value your flesh more than Christ's Salvation promise. If you valued His Salvation promise more, then you would not be afraid to make a stand for Him during the tribulation like He commanded us to do:

Not really. By your own words, you say it will be really bad for the believers, and yet Jesus warned believers not to be ensnared by the cares of this life in the world we are living now. The end of the great tribulation as you had described is hardly tempting to any believer to love this life to stay behind.

Mark 13:11
11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.
KJV

Compare to Matthew 10 th chapter and you will see that applies to the sending out of the 12 which included Judas Iscariot whom was not a believer.

Albeit, the the Lord Jesus Christ does speak thru the Holy Spirit in us when we minister to others as led by the Good Shepherd thru the indwelling Spirit.

Well, actually you are not addressing His words. Instead you are using your own ideas instead of heeding what is written.

Prove it.

Luke 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. 34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Can't be applied to the times of the great tribulation when in order to do all those things is to have a mark of the beast to buy & sell. It would be evil to avoid the obvious reason for any judgment is because they have the mark of the beast but no. This is directed as a warning to believers that can be ensnared even by the cares of this life to not want to leave when the Bridegroom comes. So hardly applicable to the end of the great tribulation.

2 Thessalonians 2 did not happen back in Apostle Paul's day.

Then take heed to his words.

2 Thessalonians 2:1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ is one event and by our gathering together unto Him is another event; not necessarily in order but 2 events. Paul goes on to speaking of another 2 events that are not the same event.

2 Thessalonians 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

So the falling away from the faith will happen first for why God is judging His House first at the pre great trib rapture. And the proof that this iniquity which will cause the falling away from the faith as happening in droves in the latter days, was already at work in Paul's day.

2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

See the beginning of that verse 7? And what follows in the rest of that verse, is new age mentality of seeking to receive spirits, thus the restraining power of the Holy Spirit will allow those spirits to enter into the body of the saved believer to cause confusion & fall.

Verse 8 is Paul going back to the main event of the great tribulation which the Lord will deal with by the brightness of His coming at the end of the great tribulation ( since this revealing of that son of perdition will be in the middle of the great tribulation ).

And so in dealing with the falling away from the faith which is a separate entire event as God will judge His House first as per 1 Peter 4:17-19, then we can see Him dealing with those that went astray by that iniquity happening back in Paul's day.

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Saved believers are seeking to receive the Holy Spirit apart from salvation after a sign of tongues and other sensational signs in the flesh; it is for that cause God will permit the strong delusion for believing that lie when seeking to receive spirits apart from salvation as he who let will let until he be taken out of the way.

So this was happening back in Paul's day as that damnation is being a castaway to be received later on as a vessel unto dishonor BUT still in His House. Once damned as a vessel unto dishonor, they can never be that vessel unto honor. Never. It is a damnation.

Paul goes on to remind believers to stand against this iniquity at work in his days below.

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Paul goes on to the next chapter wishing that believers would be delivered from wicked and evil men that have not faith nor follow after the traditions taught of us and are "disorderly" as those crazy movements of the "spirit" are in these latter days as God is not the author of confusion and that includes tongues without interpretation as never understood when manifested as gained by that apostasy.

But do note that the commandment to withdraw was to admonish them as a brother still, not as the enemy in 2 Thessalonians 3:14-15 because they are brothers still, and Jesus will get that one lost sheep even after gathering the 99 sheep as He has said in Matthew 18:10-17

So the iniquity back in Paul's day was already at work and is manifested in droves in these latter days as many are falling away from the faith as prophesied in 1 Timothy 4:1-2 and in 2 Thessalonians 2nd chapter.

May God cause the increase because I know I cannot help you receive the truth in His words fir why God is judging His House first.

Willie T · Aug 6, 2018

I sure wish people could stop flooding posts with hundreds of words long enough to absorb what my Signature says.

Enoch111 · Aug 6, 2018

Willie T said:
I sure wish people could stop flooding posts with hundreds of words long enough to absorb what my Signature says.

Since cyberspace is seemingly unlimited, this is what you can expect.

JesusIsFaithful · Aug 6, 2018

Willie T said:
I sure wish people could stop flooding posts with hundreds of words long enough to absorb what my Signature says.

Hmm how to shorten my reply to cliff notes version....here's hoping Jesus has helped me.

In Matthew 24:1-3 in verse 3 ... Jesus was asked three different kinds of questions for when each of those questions will happen, the first one being when the stones of the temple will be thrown down. Hence He is not answering those 3 questions in chronological order as He does go back and forth on answering those questions as well thru out that chapter.

Your reference can only be applied to the time of the great tribulation when the son of perdition had revealed himself half way thru. Jesus cited a verse ( Matthew 24:14 ) that puts that time you had referenced as happening afterwards when the everlasting gospel is preached all over the world and then the end shall come; hence the end of this world for the way it is because of the calamity of fire and the coming great tribulation that will end that world we live in as we know it.

I linked that time of verse 14 with the three angels that sets up the hour of temptation that shall try all upon the earth to Revelation 14:6-11 as every one will know the gospel, know of the destruction of one third of the earth & thus fallen USA, and the consequence for taking the mark of the beast which is the lake of fire so that NO ONE will have any excuse not knowing the gospel nor the consequence for taking the mark.

It is because of Matthew 24:14 is how I place His answer as happening mid way thru the great tribulation when the son of perdition reveals himself.

JesusIsFaithful · Aug 6, 2018

Willie T said:
I sure wish people could stop flooding posts with hundreds of words long enough to absorb what my Signature says.

For all the readers who can't read that fine print in your signature...

Willie T said:
I am the righteousness of God, in Christ Jesus... and that's a pretty good place to be living.
"True eloquence consists in saying all that is necessary, and only that which is."
François Duc de La Rochefoucauld
Bill Everett - Vineyard of St. Petersburg, FL

Your signature looks different from the last time I had read it. At any rate, I had set it at 6 for the largest print and it still comes out looking like that. Go figure.

As for saying only what is necessary.... I try to be full in explaining everything with scripture so that you would not be asking.. "Where did you get that from?" Kind of like making full proof of the ministry in that post in proving or reproving in the course of our discussion.

Davy · Aug 7, 2018

JesusIsFaithful said:
As long as you do not gloss over His words in order for what you believe is true.

Mark 13:13
13 And ye shall be hated of all men for My name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
KJV

Luke 17:33
33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
KJV

Matt 10:28
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
KJV

So it is bad.. at least you acknowledge how bad it will be at the end of the great tribulation then albeit, you seem to think Jesus is not faithful in doing a good job in the keeping of their souls while they suffer the great tribulation. See 1 Peter 4:17-19 in the KJV only.

It will be a trial for some, but not for all, otherwise what Paul taught in 1 Thess.4 about the group of saints still alive on earth being "caught up" when Jesus comes would have been a lie. Those of us to be delivered up to give a Testimony will be prepared to make that stand for Jesus, even to the death.

Rev 2:10
10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
KJV

Acts 14:22
22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.
KJV

Our Lord Jesus and His Apostles no where promised we would have smooth sailing all the way to His coming. His Salvation promise isn't about saving our flesh, which is what pre-tribers appear to be more focused on.

Not really. By your own words, you say it will be really bad for the believers, and yet Jesus warned believers not to be ensnared by the cares of this life in the world we are living now. The end of the great tribulation as you had described is hardly tempting to any believer to love this life to stay behind.

Your reasoning doesn't make sense. Our Lord Jesus telling us to not get wrapped up in the cares of this world does not prevent heeding His command to be on watch at the end of this world by the signs He gave us. What was it He said at the end of Mark 13, "And what I say unto you, I say unto all, Watch" (Mark 13:37). Watch what? The pre-trib rapture preachers don't know, because they instead wrongly preach you're gonna' fly away before the tribulation starts. They are telling congregations they don't have to 'watch', which is telling them they don't have to listen to Jesus' command!

The delivering up I quoted from Christ's Olivet discourse, which is about signs of the very end of this world they asked Him about. Jesus showed there that the generation which will see His return, will see all those signs. That means that specific delivering up is about the tribulation at the end of this world.

Prove it.

Easy, if you're on man's pre-trib rapture doctrine. What are the signs of the end Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse to His Church? And who are those saints He mentions in His Olivet discourse that He sends the angels to gather?

Luke 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. 34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Can't be applied to the times of the great tribulation when in order to do all those things is to have a mark of the beast to buy & sell. It would be evil to avoid the obvious reason for any judgment is because they have the mark of the beast but no. This is directed as a warning to believers that can be ensnared even by the cares of this life to not want to leave when the Bridegroom comes. So hardly applicable to the end of the great tribulation.

Matt 24:42-44
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
KJV

The time of "great tribulation" is exactly the time of warning for the Luke 21:33, because Jesus is warning about the day of His return.

Jesus said the following just before the Luke 21:33 verse you pulled out by itself, a common practice of pre-trib rapture preachers taking God's Word out of context and applying their own meaning to it:

Luke 21:31-33
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but My words shall not pass away.
KJV

Same thing He said in the Matthew 24 and Mark 13 versions about the signs of the very end leading up to His return. The generation that will see His 2nd coming will see those things come to pass in their lifetime, that's the meaning.

Then take heed to his words.

2 Thessalonians 2:1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ is one event and by our gathering together unto Him is another event; not necessarily in order but 2 events. Paul goes on to speaking of another 2 events that are not the same event.

They are not separate events, as Paul simply showed in 1 Thessalonians 4. Just because there's an "and" conjunction doesn't mean they happen at separate times. What pre-trib does is ADD to that Scripture by saying they happen at two separate times.

Heb 9:28
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
KJV

Rev 1:7
7 Behold, He cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see Him, and they also which pierced Him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so, Amen.
KJV

When Jesus returns to gather His Church, ALL eyes will see Him, even His enemies will see Him. Zechariah 14 even shows His feet will touch down upon the Mount of Olives when He returns, bringing all the saints with Him. The saints alive are "caught up" to Him as He descends, and go to Jerusalem with Him, not to heaven. The asleep saints He brings with Him from the heavenly as they are resurrected first.

2 Thessalonians 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

So the falling away from the faith will happen first for why God is judging His House first at the pre great trib rapture. And the proof that this iniquity which will cause the falling away from the faith as happening in droves in the latter days, was already at work in Paul's day.

Where's the 2 Thess.2:4 verse you left out which goes with verse 3?

2 Thess 2:4
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
KJV

The falling away phrase is the word apostasia in the Greek, a word where our English word apostasy comes from, which means to leave what one once believed. What it's about is tied to that false Christ (Antichrist) appearing and playing God in Jerusalem. Jesus had already warned us about the coming of a pseudochristos to Jerusalem at the end of this world, placing the "abomination of desolation" in the temple per the Book of Daniel, and warning when someone tells us, "Lo, Christ is here, or there", to not believe it (Matt.24:23-26). And Paul in 2 Cor.11 warned us about the "another Jesus" and how Satan disguises ("transforms" in Greek) himself as an angel of light, and his ministers as the ministers of righteousness. Then Jesus warned us again about the "another beast" entity that appears with two horns LIKE the lamb (Jesus), but speaks as a dragon (Satan).

Both in Matthew 24 and in Revelation 13:11 forward, the false one in question is showing doing great signs and wonders to deceive with. Paul shows that same thing with this "man of sin" in 2 Thess.2. It's the SAME false one Jesus warning us about in Matthew 24 and Revelation 13:11. It's the Antichrist for the end of this world. And he is who will cause the great falling away by those great signs and lying wonders, playing Christ in Jerusalem. That is who your pre-trib rapture preachers are preparing you to fly away to.

Davy · Aug 7, 2018

JesusIsFaithful said:
Hmm how to shorten my reply to cliff notes version....here's hoping Jesus has helped me.

In Matthew 24:1-3 in verse 3 ... Jesus was asked three different kinds of questions for when each of those questions will happen, the first one being when the stones of the temple will be thrown down. Hence He is not answering those 3 questions in chronological order as He does go back and forth on answering those questions as well thru out that chapter.

Your reference can only be applied to the time of the great tribulation when the son of perdition had revealed himself half way thru. Jesus cited a verse ( Matthew 24:14 ) that puts that time you had referenced as happening afterwards when the everlasting gospel is preached all over the world and then the end shall come; hence the end of this world for the way it is because of the calamity of fire and the coming great tribulation that will end that world we live in as we know it.

I linked that time of verse 14 with the three angels that sets up the hour of temptation that shall try all upon the earth to Revelation 14:6-11 as every one will know the gospel, know of the destruction of one third of the earth & thus fallen USA, and the consequence for taking the mark of the beast which is the lake of fire so that NO ONE will have any excuse not knowing the gospel nor the consequence for taking the mark.

It is because of Matthew 24:14 is how I place His answer as happening mid way thru the great tribulation when the son of perdition reveals himself.

Huge problem you overlooked though.

In that Matthew 24:14 verse, the Joel 2 event of the cloven tongue is what will manifest through Christ's elect which are delivered up to give a Testimony during the tribulation. It's kind of funny too, because most Churches which claim to speak the cloven tongue of Pentecost are busy having fun today, instead of preparing for the delivering up, because they're told they're gonna' fly away prior to the tribulation.

JesusIsFaithful · Aug 7, 2018

Davy said:
It will be a trial for some, but not for all, otherwise what Paul taught in 1 Thess.4 about the group of saints still alive on earth being "caught up" when Jesus comes would have been a lie. Those of us to be delivered up to give a Testimony will be prepared to make that stand for Jesus, even to the death.

Rev 2:10
10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
KJV

That one testifies to the reward of crowns and in receiving it is at the pre great trib rapture event and thus avoiding being a castaway. The warning to that church of Thyatira that if they do not repent, they will be cast into the bed of the great tribulation, is also a warning to that church you had referenced. We can see Paul addressing the reward and the consequence of being a castaway for failing to run that race by faith in Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. 25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Acts 14:22
22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

KJV

There is tribulation and then there is great tribulation. Right now we are in the tribulation of our times where false prophets and false spirist ae leading many saved believers astray, as prophesied in 1 Timothy 4:1-2 & 2 Thessalonians 2:1-15 as that falling away was to happen first as that iniquity was already at work in Paul's days.

Our Lord Jesus and His Apostles no where promised we would have smooth sailing all the way to His coming. His Salvation promise isn't about saving our flesh, which is what pre-tribers appear to be more focused on.

That flesh will be changed btw.. but what Jesus is really talking about in regards to pre great trib is abiding in Him by looking to Him as the author & finisher of our faith in running that race BECAUSE He will be coming as the Bridegroom in judging His House first because of the falling away from the faith.

Your reasoning doesn't make sense. Our Lord Jesus telling us to not get wrapped up in the cares of this world does not prevent heeding His command to be on watch at the end of this world by the signs He gave us. What was it He said at the end of Mark 13, "And what I say unto you, I say unto all, Watch" (Mark 13:37). Watch what? The pre-trib rapture preachers don't know, because they instead wrongly preach you're gonna' fly away before the tribulation starts. They are telling congregations they don't have to 'watch', which is telling them they don't have to listen to Jesus' command!

The delivering up I quoted from Christ's Olivet discourse, which is about signs of the very end of this world they asked Him about. Jesus showed there that the generation which will see His return, will see all those signs. That means that specific delivering up is about the tribulation at the end of this world.

He does not speak of a global judgment that will befall believers in that world unless that was the consequence for not being ready & willing to go ( Luke 12:40-49 ). Even Peter spoke of that fiery judgment ( that fire that will burn one third of the earth as described in Revelation ) for why believers should long suffer in abiding in Him to escape what is coming on the earth in 2 Peter 3 rd chapter.

Easy, if you're on man's pre-trib rapture doctrine. What are the signs of the end Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse to His Church? And who are those saints He mentions in His Olivet discourse that He sends the angels to gather?

Matt 24:42-44
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
KJV

Those leaving this world for why Jesus referred to Lot's wife in how she did not want to leave Sodom in Luke 17th chapter.

The time of "great tribulation" is exactly the time of warning for the Luke 21:33, because Jesus is warning about the day of His return.

Jesus said the following just before the Luke 21:33 verse you pulled out by itself, a common practice of pre-trib rapture preachers taking God's Word out of context and applying their own meaning to it:

Luke 21:31-33
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but My words shall not pass away.
KJV

Then pay attention to the words in the following verses for why you are to take heed and watch so you can escape what is coming on the earth.

Luke 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

So what is the escape of all these things that shall come to pass? How can one escape and stand before the Son of Man unless in Heaven by willing to leave the cares of this life behind?

JesusIsFaithful · Aug 7, 2018

Davy said:
Huge problem you overlooked though.

In that Matthew 24:14 verse, the Joel 2 event of the cloven tongue is what will manifest through Christ's elect which are delivered up to give a Testimony during the tribulation.

Acts 2nd chapter is not a continual event thru out church history. As for the great tribulation, with 144,000 witnesses that were Jews, yeah that will happen too, but you have to discern why God would suddenly give the dispensation of the gospel back to the Jews? Because there is an end to the times of the Gentiles at the great trib rapture event for why it went back to the Jews, aka the 144,000 witnesses for the great tribulation.

It's kind of funny too, because most Churches which claim to speak the cloven tongue of Pentecost are busy having fun today, instead of preparing for the delivering up, because they're told they're gonna' fly away prior to the tribulation.

They be of the church at Thyatira for being an adulterous generation that seeks after a sign of tongues ( which never comes with interpretation or understood as a foreign language of men ) by receiving what they believe is the Holy Spirit apart from salvation. The irony that our wayward brothers and sisters fail to see how that rudiment is ongoing for those other signs of confusion where believers fall backwards, or have uncontrollable laughter or other stuff of confusion. it is to that warning is why God is judging His House first at the pre great trib rapture as that consequence for not abiding in Him is to be cast off into the bed of the great tribulation as disqualified for attending the Marriage Supper held only in Heaven..

Davy · Aug 8, 2018

JesusIsFaithful said:
That one testifies to the reward of crowns and in receiving it is at the pre great trib rapture event and thus avoiding being a castaway. The warning to that church of Thyatira that if they do not repent, they will be cast into the bed of the great tribulation, is also a warning to that church you had referenced. We can see Paul addressing the reward and the consequence of being a castaway for failing to run that race by faith in Jesus Christ.

Wrong. Jesus' admonishing there in Rev.2:10 is to the Church at Smyrna, one of the two Churches He had no problem with. And the point of my posting that verse was to prove to you using Scripture that Jesus didn't promise to save our flesh, but instead to save our soul. There is absolutely no connection there with a pre-trib rapture idea. You're adding that.

1 Corinthians 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. 25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

There is tribulation and then there is great tribulation. Right now we are in the tribulation of our times where false prophets and false spirist ae leading many saved believers astray, as prophesied in 1 Timothy 4:1-2 & 2 Thessalonians 2:1-15 as that falling away was to happen first as that iniquity was already at work in Paul's days.

The event Paul showed us about for the end in 2 Thess.2 is about the time of "great tribulation" Jesus warned us of in His Olivet discourse. I'm pretty sure you well know about all that, but you don't seem to believe it as written. The placing of the abomination that makes desolate per the Daniel 11 Scripture where Jesus quoted from about the "abomination of desolation" is directly linked to the false one of 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4. It also linked to the false one of Rev.13:11 forward. All 3 Scripture example, Matt.24:23-26, 2 Thess.2:3-8, and Rev.13:11-15 are hard linked together about the false one who comes at the end of this world working great signs and wonders to deceive. That is when the time of "great tribulation" will be, even as Daniel 12:1 and Matthew 24:21 described it. So you can assume the word 'tribulation' as a simpleton matter, but the Scripture makes it obvious it will be a time on earth that has never been before, nor ever will be again.

That flesh will be changed btw.. but what Jesus is really talking about in regards to pre great trib is abiding in Him by looking to Him as the author & finisher of our faith in running that race BECAUSE He will be coming as the Bridegroom in judging His House first because of the falling away from the faith.

You're right it is written that He will judge His own first, as Peter said, and as Ezekiel 9 shows. But that will be on the "day of the Lord" which comes "as a thief in the night" and will end this present world by God's consuming fire (2 Peter 3:10-12; end of Hebrews 12). It will also end Antichrist's reign. Nothing is mentioned about a pre-trib rapture in any of those Scriptures. Again, your adding to Scripture.

He does not speak of a global judgment that will befall believers in that world unless that was the consequence for not being ready & willing to go ( Luke 12:40-49 ). Even Peter spoke of that fiery judgment ( that fire that will burn one third of the earth as described in Revelation ) for why believers should long suffer in abiding in Him to escape what is coming on the earth in 2 Peter 3 rd chapter.

In that Luke 12 Scripture, our Lord Jesus said blessed are those when He comes He finds watching, and it's those He will serve at His table (in His future Kingdom). So it is not... about some erroneous idea of whether or not the believer wants go, especially since there is no mention of a rapture there about going someplace. Jesus is coming here, to Jerusalem (Zech.14); we're not going to Heaven.

Revelation doesn't say 1/3 are burned in God's consuming fire that Peter mentioned. And the one third of Zech.13 are Christ's elect that will be refined when they are tried. The consuming fire Peter spoke of will end this present world, burning ALL of man's works off this earth. The comparison Peter used in the 2 Peter 3 chapter is the previous destruction God brought upon the whole earth using water. This next time it will be by fire, Peter said there. And surely you're not making comparisons with the one third that are killed in Rev.9, because that timing isn't even the "day of the Lord" timing.

If you thinking the "day of the Lord" events begin at the start of the great tribulation, which is something pre-trib rapture preachers have wrongly been teaching, then you need to rethink that. Like Peter showed on that 'day', God's consuming fire will burn man's works off this earth, ending this present world time. That means no more tribulation, no more Antichrist, no more beast, no more beast kingdom.

Those leaving this world for why Jesus referred to Lot's wife in how she did not want to leave Sodom in Luke 17th chapter.

Sorry, but you're starting to sound like a broken record, regurgitating popular errors of pre-trib rapture thought. If you'd bother to read the very last verse of Luke 17 (with Matt.24:28), you might discover (if you listen to our Lord Jesus there), that the 1st one 'taken' is to Antichrist, not to our Lord Jesus. Our Lord Jesus wants to find us still working for Him in the field, and at the mill grinding, and on watch, when He comes. The Left-Behind ideology is exactly opposite of what God's Word teaches.

Then pay attention to the words in the following verses for why you are to take heed and watch so you can escape what is coming on the earth.

Luke 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

So what is the escape of all these things that shall come to pass? How can one escape and stand before the Son of Man unless in Heaven by willing to leave the cares of this life behind?

That Luke 21:34 verse is just ONE verse in that Luke 21 chapter. And you are not keeping it in context with the rest of the Chapter.

Luke 21:22
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
KJV

Ever read the end of the 2nd verse of Isaiah 61 about the 'day of vengeance of our God'?

The event Jesus was talking about His servants escaping is the consuming fire destruction upon the wicked on the "day of the Lord". That's the day He was warning us about to "... take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares." The escape we are to do is to be watching and waiting for HIS COMING, and not fall away to the pseudo-Messiah that comes first, and by that, remaining "a chaste virgin" like Paul taught, we will not be subject to the "sudden destruction" coming upon the wicked and deceived.

This is why Paul told us in 1 Thess.5 that the "day of the Lord" will come "as a thief in the night", and when the deceived and wicked start to say, "Peace and safety", then "sudden destruction" will come upon them. He said to the Thessalonians he had no need to teach them of that day, for they already knew, and that we are not assigned to God's wrath. The wrath Paul was referring to has to be that time of the "sudden destruction", and that event will only occur on the final day of this present world. We are to be aware and watching all the way up to the time of Christ's 2nd coming on that final day. That is the only... time He is coming.

Davy · Aug 8, 2018

JesusIsFaithful said:
Acts 2nd chapter is not a continual event thru out church history. As for the great tribulation, with 144,000 witnesses that were Jews, yeah that will happen too, but you have to discern why God would suddenly give the dispensation of the gospel back to the Jews? Because there is an end to the times of the Gentiles at the great trib rapture event for why it went back to the Jews, aka the 144,000 witnesses for the great tribulation.

I'm not even going to go there, since you have apparently been blinded away from the last days purpose of the cloven tongue.

You show you really don't understand who the 144,000 are either. I'll bet your preachers you listen to hate any teaching on the ten lost tribes of Israel, which were never Jews. The Jewish historian Josephus said the title of 'Jew' began with the remnant of the house of Judah that returned to Jerusalem after the 70 years Babylon captivity. The house of Judah referred only... to the southern kingdom of Judah, specifically the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi. The ten northern tribed kingdom was removed by the kings of Assyria before the house of Judah (Jews) went captive to Babylon. You've got a lot of catching up to do on that Bible history, starting at 1 Kings 11. And if you don't know it, you won't know who the 144,000 are. In short, only 1/3 of the 144,000 represent Jews. The rest represent ten tribe Israelites. All 144,000 represent the remnant of Israel according to the election of grace, and are part of Christ's Church. That's why the angels in Rev.7 are to hold back until those are 'sealed' with God's seal. And those are not some 'tribulation saints' idea. They are simply sealed Israelites in Christ's Church. The "great multitude" of Rev.7 represent sealed Gentiles in Christ's Church. Both go through the great tribulation.

They be of the church at Thyatira for being an adulterous generation that seeks after a sign of tongues ( which never comes with interpretation or understood as a foreign language of men ) by receiving what they believe is the Holy Spirit apart from salvation. The irony that our wayward brothers and sisters fail to see how that rudiment is ongoing for those other signs of confusion where believers fall backwards, or have uncontrollable laughter or other stuff of confusion. it is to that warning is why God is judging His House first at the pre great trib rapture as that consequence for not abiding in Him is to be cast off into the bed of the great tribulation as disqualified for attending the Marriage Supper held only in Heaven..

The cloven tongue is real; it's just not a gibberish 'unknown' tongue, but one that is understood by all present, as was done on Pentecost in Acts 2. It most likely is the one tongue which all nations spoke prior to the tower of Babel event. In 1 Cor.14, the KJV translators added the word "unknown" to tongue. The actual Greek just says 'glossa', which means a known language. That is what The Holy Spirit is going to do again, as Pentecost was actually an example for the event in the last days just prior to the "day of the Lord" (Joel 2:28-31).

n2thelight · Aug 8, 2018

First tribulation is of satan,the second(great)is of God.

Matthew 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not have her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"

Before the after is of satan

Tribulation VS Great Tribulation

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Heaven Sent

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Heaven Sent

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads