CAN WE FALL AWAY ?

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H. Richard

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Yes, it was a short summary of what you said over a few minutes and would have taken more words than what you shared in your post above.

That was why I said that your reported actions were God's to judge and not mine.

The fellow worker came to you for help and what the fellow worker heard and saw in your responses, he judged and rejected as being no better that the others he had talked with. That was contained in your story, that you told.

Jesus condemned the people who told people what they should do but was contrary to their own practices.

That was why Jesus told us to make disciples of the people we rub shoulders with and to take our disciples on a journey towards theirs and our salvation which is always in our distant future when the book of our good deeds will be opened and they will either condemn or exalt us at that time. As such we need to put into practice what we learn about God's heart for us and the people around us. The process towards our salvation is not something that we can take the "necessary" steps towards, it is a learning process that we must put into practice. We, who claim to be in a deep relationship with Christ, are required to demonstrate this relationship on a daily basis by taking up our own cross to follow Him.

Shalom

***

Thanks for clarifying your thoughts. Sorry that your ideas are the same as the religious persons that told the man "HE MUST SAVE HIMSELF BY WHAT HE DOES". Since you and those in religion think they can save themselves by what they do then for them salvation is something they must earn by the flesh. If a person has to work for it then it is not a free gift from God and it keeps them from finding any joy in what God HAS DONE FOR THEM.

If this young man had realized how much Jesus loved him and did not expect him to be sinless perhaps he would still be alive. It is the religious that think other are not to sin and that is because they can not see their own sins. They say a person can not sin while they are sinning in the flesh just like others do and that fits the very definition of a hypocrite..

We are as far apart in our thoughts as the West is from the East. The scriptures tell me that salvation is the work of God and is a free gift. But the religious do not want it to be free. I am reminded of JOB's three religious friends.
 
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Jay Ross

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***

Thanks for clarifying your thoughts. Sorry that your ideas are the same as the religious persons that told the man "HE MUST SAVE HIMSELF BY WHAT HE DOES". Since you and those in religion think they can save themselves by what they do then for them salvation is something they must earn by the flesh. If a person has to work for it then it is not a free gift from God and it keeps them from finding any joy in what God HAS DONE FOR THEM.

If this young man had realized how much Jesus loved him and did not expect him to be sinless perhaps he would still be alive. It is the religious that think other are not to sin and that is because they can not see their own sins. They say a person can not sin while they are sinning in the flesh just like others do and that fits the very definition of a hypocrite..

We are as far apart in our thoughts as the West is from the East. The scriptures tell me that salvation is the work of God and is a free gift. But the religious do not want it to be free. I am reminded of JOB's three religious friends.

H. R it is not possible for us to come to really know what a person actually believes and how they act out their beliefs from the brief sketches of words that are posted on this board. Everybody's comments are based on the briefest of stories and posts that they put up.

If we look at the parable of the separation of the sheep and the goats, both the sheep and the goats called Jesus, "Lord, Lord," but to some He said that He did not know them. Why did He not Know them? Because their hearts did not match up with His heart. They had a Hellenistic understanding, i.e. a "Goat's" understanding, of God's salvation process. Yes God's salvation comes through His Grace towards us as can be seen in both the O. and N.T.s, but there is also a requirement for us to accept God's Grace and to put our salvation process into actions that do truly reflect God's heart for the people that we rub shoulders with in our daily lives as we simple walk down the street passing strangers as we rush to the next appointment/opportunity in our lives demonstrating how much God loves us.

Yes, you are stating that God's Salvation is a free gift, and I do not disagree with that statement, but its the transposing of that free gift into the reality of our lives that requires, as Paul tells us in EP 4 the things we must do to become righteous and holy: - we must learn, put off, be renewed and put on, for the transformation to happen: -

Eph 4 :20-24 : - 20 But you have not so learned Christ, 21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, 23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and that you put on the refurbished man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.

As we go and make disciples of others by our example of Christ living in us, we are doing the things that are on God's heart for those around us. It is our relationship with God and our transformation into who God intended us to be from the beginning of time that is counted towards our righteousness, not just the renewing of our mind. The Book of Life is a record of our "works" that we willingly undertake, not to receive the accolades at the GWT judgement, but because that is what is in our hearts to do because our heart has become a reflection of God's heart towards others. Self centeredness has been diminished and God centeredness has become the norm in our lives. This is something that we must chose to do and continually work towards. However, it is something that we do together with Christ as we walk together through our journey in this present life.

Shalom
 
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Helen

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"Can we fall away"

Yes if we choose to.
But if so, we lose the favour and reward of- " the good and faithful servant"
Like the second son who said " Yes I will go and work in your vineyard...but did not go. While the first servant said no I wont go ...but he afterward went anyway.
 

H. Richard

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H. R it is not possible for us to come to really know what a person actually believes and how they act out their beliefs from the brief sketches of words that are posted on this board. Everybody's comments are based on the briefest of stories and pots that they put up.

If we look at the parable of the separation of the sheep and the goats, both the sheep and the goats called Jesus, "Lord, Lord," but to some He said that He did not know them. Why did He not Know them? Because their hearts did not match up with His heart. They had a Hellenistic understanding, i.e. a "Goat's" understanding, of God's salvation process. Yes God's salvation comes through His Grace towards us as can be seen in both the O. and N.T.s, but there is also a requirement for us to accept God's Grace and to put our salvation process into actions that do truly reflect God's heart for the people that we rub shoulders with in our daily lives as we simple walk down the street passing strangers as we rush to the next appointment/opportunity in our lives demonstrating how much God loves us.

Yes, you are stating that God's Salvation is a free gift, and I do not disagree with that statement, but its the transposing of that free gift into the reality of our lives that requires, as Paul tells us in EP 4 the things we must do to become righteous and holy: - we must learn, put off, be renewed and put on, for the transformation to happen: -

Eph 4 :20-24 : - 20 But you have not so learned Christ, 21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, 23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and that you put on the refurbished man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.

As we go and make disciples of others by our example of Christ living in us, we are doing the things that are on God's heart for those around us. It is our relationship with God and our transformation into who God intended us to be from the beginning of time that is counted towards our righteousness, not just the renewing of our mind. The Book of Life is a record of our "works" that we willingly undertake, not to receive the accolades at the GWT judgement, but because that is what is in our hearts to do because our heart has become a reflection of God's heart towards others. Self centeredness has been diminished and God centeredness has become the norm in our lives. This is something that we must chose to do and continually work towards. However, it is something that we do together with Christ as we walk together through our journey in this present life.

Shalom
***
What I have "PUT OFF" is the idea that I can control my sinful flesh and become perfect by it's works.

You don't know your scriptures. The sheep and goat judgement is for those Gentiles that helped, or did not help, the Jews in the trib. You have taken it to be a judgement for those in Christ and that is your error. Those in Christ have already been judged on the basis of their faith in the shed blood on the cross. God's work, not their own.
Heb 12:2
2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
NKJV

If that judgement is for us today then the only thing that gets a person into heaven is his/her works in religion. It said nothing about the shed blood. Jesus never preached a message to the Gentiles. He only came to the Jews. He said so but obviously the religious don't want people to know this.

You said, "As we go and make disciples of others by our example of Christ living in us, we are doing the things that are on God's heart for those around us".

So being a hypocrite is a good example, right. Telling others that they can not sin and go to heaven and all the while the person saying this is sinning too. You still don't get the message from Jesus when He told the story of the Pharisee and the tax collector. Your idea that you are a good example before others is just like the Pharisees. They walked before others showing their righteousness and they had Jesus killed. My message is that God loved them so much He paid for their sins of the flesh on the cross. Your message is all about yourself and what you do. Mine is all about what Jesus has already done for sinful man. It seems to me that your message is that God is sitting in the heavens ready to send sinner to hell if they can't stop sinning like you have.

Self righteous people may be able to fool some but it doesn't fool the children of God. They know that the only way into heaven is through the blood that Jesus shed on the cross. It seems that most have bought into their thinking that Jesus makes them perfect in the flesh by helping their flesh become sinless by their works. That is man's way into heaven and it will not work.

Don't you think we have concluded our ideas in this conversation or do you wish to continue replying to me so you can continue to say you are sinless.
 
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Jay Ross

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@H. Richard

You seem to have a very thin skin clothing your righteousness. Also your understanding of the scriptures is what it is and is, just like mine, not completely perfect. You have your focus on certain aspects of the Gospel message, while I have a tendency to focus on other aspects of this same gospel message and we both leave out other portions of that same gospel message. We both are not perfect.

It seems to me that I must express the Gospel Message as eloquently as you do with respect to what you believe is all of the salvation process.

If a tree bears bad fruit, i.e. works, then it will be cut down and thrown into the fire, but if a tree bears good, i.e. works, then that tree will be watered and cared for by God so that it can produce more fruit, i.e. works, that bears witness to God and His Christ.

Now I am not judging you as to whether or not you are producing good or bad fruit, as that is God's prerogative to decide and not mine or yours to do. In fact, the scriptures do tell us that we are not to judge others and that we will also be judged because of our judgements. Sadly, in judging others we often condemn them to death which is not our call to make and in doing so we sin.

H. R may the Lord God continue to draw you into His loving embrace.

Shalom
 
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H. Richard

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@H. Richard

You seem to have a very thin skin clothing your righteousness. Also your understanding of the scriptures is what it is and is, just like mine, not completely perfect. You have your focus on certain aspects of the Gospel message, while I have a tendency to focus on other aspects of this same gospel message and we both leave out other portions of that same gospel message. We both are not perfect.

It seems to me that I must express the Gospel Message as eloquently as you do with respect to what you believe is all of the salvation process.

If a tree bears bad fruit, i.e. works, then it will be cut down and thrown into the fire, but if a tree bears good, i.e. works, then that tree will be watered and cared for by God so that it can produce more fruit, i.e. works, that bears witness to Goad and His Christ.

Now I am not judging you as to whether or not you are producing good or bad fruit, as that is God's prerogative to decide and not mine or yours to do. In fact, the scriptures do tell us that we are not to judge others and that we will also be judged because of our judgements. Sadly, in judging other we often condemn them to death which is not our call to make and in doing so we sin.

H. R may the Lord God continue to draw you into His loving embrace.

Shalom
***
You said; You seem to have a very thin skin clothing your righteousness. Not really I have the Holy Spirit who cares for me. and has given me the the righteousness of God. All this because I have placed my faith in His work on the cross.

1 Cor 6:11-12
11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
12 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
NKJV

The self righteous religious people keep trying to get me to go under my works but I can't do that since I realize how sinful my flesh is. Can't you see it, the Pharisees thought they were religious and sinless when all along they were children of Satan. Not my judgement but Jesus' judgement.
 

Nancy

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***

Thanks for clarifying your thoughts. Sorry that your ideas are the same as the religious persons that told the man "HE MUST SAVE HIMSELF BY WHAT HE DOES". Since you and those in religion think they can save themselves by what they do then for them salvation is something they must earn by the flesh. If a person has to work for it then it is not a free gift from God and it keeps them from finding any joy in what God HAS DONE FOR THEM.

If this young man had realized how much Jesus loved him and did not expect him to be sinless perhaps he would still be alive. It is the religious that think other are not to sin and that is because they can not see their own sins. They say a person can not sin while they are sinning in the flesh just like others do and that fits the very definition of a hypocrite..

We are as far apart in our thoughts as the West is from the East. The scriptures tell me that salvation is the work of God and is a free gift. But the religious do not want it to be free. I am reminded of JOB's three religious friends.
1 John 1:8 King James Version (KJV)
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
 

H. Richard

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Gal 3:1-9
3 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified?
2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?

4 Have you suffered so many things in vain — if indeed it was in vain?
5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? —
6 just as Abraham "believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."
7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham.
8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, "In you all the nations shall be blessed."
9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.
NKJV

Gal 3:13-14
13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree"),
14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
NKJV
 

Mjh29

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"Can we fall away"

Yes if we choose to.
But if so, we lose the favour and reward of- " the good and faithful servant"
Like the second son who said " Yes I will go and work in your vineyard...but did not go. While the first servant said no I wont go ...but he afterward went anyway.

This is... just not true. How can you loose something you didnt find in the first place? How can you have more power in your own salvation than Jesus Christ? Is he just sitting up in Heaven, rining his hands, saying
"Oh, I do hope that they make my death mean something, but... theres nothing I can do.."

Did the theif on the cross next to Jesus say
"Jesus, Im going to accept you."
No, he said
"Jesus, YOU remember ME when you come into your kingdom."
And did Jesus reply,
"Sorry, I cant do that... its up to you to..."
OF COURSE NOT! He responed authoritativly,
"Today, you will be with me in paradise."
Jesus has the power, not us. This loosing Salvation and then picking it back up again, it is works righteousness. It is heresy and has been refuted by the Church again and again. For people who claim to love and trust Jesus so much, we do seem to attribute to him very little power.
 

Reggie Belafonte

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What I have "PUT OFF" is the idea that I can control my sinful flesh and become perfect by it's works.

You don't know your scriptures. The sheep and goat judgement is for those Gentiles that helped, or did not help, the Jews in the trib. You have taken it to be a judgement for those in Christ and that is your error. Those in Christ have already been judged on the basis of their faith in the shed blood on the cross. God's work, not their own.
Heb 12:2
2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
NKJV

If that judgement is for us today then the only thing that gets a person into heaven is his/her works in religion. It said nothing about the shed blood. Jesus never preached a message to the Gentiles. He only came to the Jews. He said so but obviously the religious don't want people to know this.

You said, "As we go and make disciples of others by our example of Christ living in us, we are doing the things that are on God's heart for those around us".

So being a hypocrite is a good example, right. Telling others that they can not sin and go to heaven and all the while the person saying this is sinning too. You still don't get the message from Jesus when He told the story of the Pharisee and the tax collector. Your idea that you are a good example before others is just like the Pharisees. They walked before others showing their righteousness and they had Jesus killed. My message is that God loved them so much He paid for their sins of the flesh on the cross. Your message is all about yourself and what you do. Mine is all about what Jesus has already done for sinful man. It seems to me that your message is that God is sitting in the heavens ready to send sinner to hell if they can't stop sinning like you have.

Self righteous people may be able to fool some but it doesn't fool the children of God. They know that the only way into heaven is through the blood that Jesus shed on the cross. It seems that most have bought into their thinking that Jesus makes them perfect in the flesh by helping their flesh become sinless by their works. That is man's way into heaven and it will not work.

Don't you think we have concluded our ideas in this conversation or do you wish to continue replying to me so you can continue to say you are sinless.
Jesus came only for the Jews ? well no he did not come for the Jews, he said to his disciples to go to the Israelites (the servants of God) not the Jews (the people of God) now if they the Servants of God, that the disciples were sent out to seek were to disregard them who did not believe them about the Lord and Saviour, that shows that such is not truly an Israel in fact, because a true Israelite would understand the fact was that the saviour was here. as is the case in Nathaniel remember, such a one will know who the Lord is in fact.
So the Disciples had to even get rid of the dust off their sandals and this means to have nothing to do with such a one at all, because such a one is lost. not all of Israel are Israel you know and the Jews are not servants of God but only much alike with only water baptised type Christians at a level below Born Again Christians who are the ones in fact are Israel = Servants of God in Jesus Christ.
Now this about the Jews, sure Jesus came for everyone and both the tribes to be joined back together Israel and Judah and is the God of the Holy Spirit, not of a Race of idiots, the Jews are just as much a bunch of idiots as any other race, history proves that and the anytime that the Jews were great was when they were with God and every time they turned there back on God they failed, not the fact is that the same is so with any Race you could mention.
God the Father made all people equal under him and all men have to abide in him or such are lost to the power of Sin.
Look the Jews failed and were vomited out of the Land, it's finished as to race, the Disciples were in fact the first Christians and they were Israel servants of God, they served Jesus Christ and from then on all people were one under one roof and your race does not cut it at all, but the Holy Spirit is the one that cuts it. there is nothing but the Holy Spirit that cuts it and all man has to do is understand that fact.
I have this mate that says be carful not to say anything against the Jews or you will regret it.
Well I am a Hebrew you stupid moron I say and I don't believe in any racist BS but I believe in Jesus Christ 100% and no ones race cuts it at all, and if you don't believe that go look at the story of Jonah, he believed that the message could only be picked up by the Jews but he was wrong and he was blown away that they did accept his message.
 
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Mjh29

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Jesus came only for the Jews ? well no he did not come for the Jews, he said to his disciples to go to the Israelites (the servants of God) not the Jews (the people of God) now if they the Servants of God, that the disciples were sent out to seek were to disregard them who did not believe them about the Lord and Saviour, that shows that such is not truly an Israel in fact, because a true Israelite would understand the fact was that the saviour was here. as is the case in Nathaniel remember, such a one will know who the Lord is in fact.
So the Disciples had to even get rid of the dust off their sandals and this means to have nothing to do with such a one at all, because such a one is lost. not all of Israel are Israel you know and the Jews are not servants of God but only much alike with only water baptised type Christians at a level below Born Again Christians who are the ones in fact are Israel = Servants of God in Jesus Christ.
Now this about the Jews, sure Jesus came for everyone and both the tribes to be joined back together Israel and Judah and is the God of the Holy Spirit, not of a Race of idiots, the Jews are just as much a bunch of idiots as any other race, history proves that and the anytime that the Jews were great was when they were with God and every time they turned there back on God they failed, not the fact is that the same is so with any Race you could mention.
God the Father made all people equal under him and all men have to abide in him or such are lost to the power of Sin.
Look the Jews failed and were vomited out of the Land, it's finished as to race, the Disciples were in fact the first Christians and they were Israel servants of God, they served Jesus Christ and from then on all people were one under one roof and your race does not cut it at all, but the Holy Spirit is the one that cuts it. there is nothing but the Holy Spirit that cuts it and all man has to do is understand that fact.
I have this mate that says be carful not to say anything against the Jews or you will regret it.
Well I am a Hebrew you stupid moron I say and I don't believe in any racist BS but I believe in Jesus Christ 100% and no ones race cuts it at all, and if you don't believe that go look at the story of Jonah, he believed that the message could only be picked up by the Jews but he was wrong and he was blown away that they did accept his message.
Its always been by grace, never by race.
 

BreadOfLife

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So where is the joy of your salvation? Why is Jesus Christ the Good News to man if it is only a "maybe" like all other religions are?
The joy in MY salvation is called "HOPE" (Rom 12:12, 15:13, Heb. 11:1).
I have the hope that I will be saved as I cooperate with His saving grace (Matt. 24:13).

This
is what keeps me going every day . . .
 

Heb 13:8

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The joy in MY salvation is called "HOPE" (Rom 12:12, 15:13, Heb. 11:1).
I have the hope that I will be saved as I cooperate with His saving grace (Matt. 24:13).

This
is what keeps me going every day . . .

Is religion really hope though, hoping in your works and cooperation. You are but a worm to God.
 

BreadOfLife

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Is religion really hope though, hoping in your works and cooperation. You are but a worm to God.
And that's because you have absolutely NO grasp on what "Faith" actually is.

As I have told you on MANY occasions:
Faith = Belief + Obedience.

Without either ingredient there is NO faith.
 
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Heb 13:8

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And that's because you have absolutely NO grasp on what "Faith" actually is.

As I have told you on MANY occasions:
Faith = Belief + Obedience.

Without either ingredient there is NO faith.

Right, to obtain Godly righteousness, not to keep your salvation secure.
 

JesusIsFaithful

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The joy in MY salvation is called "HOPE" (Rom 12:12, 15:13, Heb. 11:1).
I have the hope that I will be saved as I cooperate with His saving grace (Matt. 24:13).

This
is what keeps me going every day . . .

How do you apply these verses for doing works towards His saving grace?

Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Seems like it confirms for me why I should not cooperate in doing any works towards that saving grace when you and I are both saved for believing in the Lord Jesus Christ and that God has raised Him from the dead. So why do you cooperate with those that deny this truth that you have been saved by grace thru faith in Jesus Christ?
 

Davy

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The 6th chapter of Hebrews has posed numerous problems in understanding just who is being referenced; as well as the meaning of being unable to be
renewed again to repentance.

The book of Hebrews presents the deity and the preeminence of the Lord Jesus Christ.


My understanding is that the book of Hebrews is written to the believing remnant of Israel. It is written for them in two different time settings. The first setting is when they are scattered following the persecution.
....

All of God's Word was written for all members of Christ's Church, even to this day.

2 Tim 3:16-17
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
KJV


It is not a mistake that Hebrews is included in the New Testament Books.

What Paul was talking about in Hebrews 6 is the unforgivable sin.

Heb 6:4-8
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put Him to an open shame.

Those once enlightened by The Holy Spirit, having experienced the powers of the world to come have direct proof of God's Salvation so that they have no excuse if they reject it.


7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
KJV


Thus that falling away is only about those who were in Christ Jesus and experienced the proofs of the world to come, but then later rejected it. Those won't be saved a second time if they should try to repent again after having been given God's proof of His Salvation.

It is not about the falling away of those of 2 Thess.2 that will be deceived by the coming Antichrist. Those deceived are not sealed under God's protection against the Antichrist's deception. One must understand accountability. Would God destroy a soul that has never been allowed to hear and understand The Gospel of Jesus Christ? No. All must hear and understand in order to be held accountable... for their choice, even the wicked during Christ's future millennium reign. Being given proof like the one Paul speaks of in Hebrews 6 is different. He is speaking of someone in this present world being given proof, who then later rejects that salvation. Those will have made their choice to perish when rejecting after having had such proof.
 

Davy

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Does Hebrews 6 then mean any of us can fall away and commit the unforgivable sin?

Not those like Christ's very elect who have been chosen. Those cannot fall away because The Father already owned them before this world and gave them to Jesus (John 17).

But those who have been 'called' only can still fall away, because those called only must be tested and tried. This is the reason why Satan will be locked up during Christ's millennium reign in the future, and then loosed for a final time to deceive those of the nations one more time. It's because The Gospel is going to be shown and proven to all souls that never heard or understood during Christ's future reign, without Satan's influence against it. And then their faith must be tested.

So likewise during this present world, those called must be tested. The time of the very end of this world with the great tribulation will be the greatest time of testing for this world. It will not be a temptation for Christ's chosen elect, because they cannot be deceived (Matt.24:24 with 'if it were possible').
 

H. Richard

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Jesus came only for the Jews ? well no he did not come for the Jews,
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I don't believe your idea.

Let me make it clear that Jesus Christ, by His own words, did not come to minister to the Gentiles, nor was His message "the kingdom gospel" sent to the Gentiles. He did not offer the promised "kingdom of heaven" TO the Gentiles. The following scriptures support my view.
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Matt 10:5-7 (NKJ)
5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: "Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans.
6 "But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 "And as you go, preach, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.'
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Matt 15:23-24 (NKJ)
23 But He answered her not a word. And His disciples came and urged Him, saying, "Send her away, for she cries out after us."
24 But He answered and said, "I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
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Paul said: Rom 15:8 (NKJ)
8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:
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Note that in Matt 10:5-7 and Matt 15:23-24 Jesus said He did not come EXCEPT to the house of Israel. Jesus came to confirm/fulfill all that was written of Him in the O.T. His mission was to the Jews, not to the Gentiles. This is what Paul meant in Rom 15:8. -- But most will not believe that Matt. 10:5-7 and Matt. 15:23-24 actually means what it says.
 

twinc

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H. R it is not possible for us to come to really know what a person actually believes and how they act out their beliefs from the brief sketches of words that are posted on this board. Everybody's comments are based on the briefest of stories and posts that they put up.

If we look at the parable of the separation of the sheep and the goats, both the sheep and the goats called Jesus, "Lord, Lord," but to some He said that He did not know them. Why did He not Know them? Because their hearts did not match up with His heart. They had a Hellenistic understanding, i.e. a "Goat's" understanding, of God's salvation process. Yes God's salvation comes through His Grace towards us as can be seen in both the O. and N.T.s, but there is also a requirement for us to accept God's Grace and to put our salvation process into actions that do truly reflect God's heart for the people that we rub shoulders with in our daily lives as we simple walk down the street passing strangers as we rush to the next appointment/opportunity in our lives demonstrating how much God loves us.

Yes, you are stating that God's Salvation is a free gift, and I do not disagree with that statement, but its the transposing of that free gift into the reality of our lives that requires, as Paul tells us in EP 4 the things we must do to become righteous and holy: - we must learn, put off, be renewed and put on, for the transformation to happen: -

Eph 4 :20-24 : - 20 But you have not so learned Christ, 21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, 23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and that you put on the refurbished man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.

As we go and make disciples of others by our example of Christ living in us, we are doing the things that are on God's heart for those around us. It is our relationship with God and our transformation into who God intended us to be from the beginning of time that is counted towards our righteousness, not just the renewing of our mind. The Book of Life is a record of our "works" that we willingly undertake, not to receive the accolades at the GWT judgement, but because that is what is in our hearts to do because our heart has become a reflection of God's heart towards others. Self centeredness has been diminished and God centeredness has become the norm in our lives. This is something that we must chose to do and continually work towards. However, it is something that we do together with Christ as we walk together through our journey in this present life.

Shalom


just step back and see all the things we must do that sadly we cannot do imho - twinc