Not so. It only confirms that if one doesn't have love then the gifts of the Holy Spirit are nothing.
Stranger
How To Understand 1 Corinthians 14th Chapter
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Not so. It only confirms that if one doesn't have love then the gifts of the Holy Spirit are nothing.
Stranger
No, Paul is talking about the gift of tongues. And they are not languages of men. Paul is clear in (1 Cor. 14:18) that he spoke in tongues. Whether he did or not at his conversion or baptism is immaterial.
Two miracles were evident in the coming of the Holy Spirit in (Acts 2). The disciples spoke in tongues by the Holy Spirit. And the Holy Spirit gave understanding to those who had ears to hear no matter what country they came from or what language they spoke.
Had these just been languages of men, it would not have caused the affect upon the believing or the unbelieving. The believing were 'amazed'. (Acts 2:12). The unbelieving 'mocked' and accused the disciples with being drunk. (Acts 2:13) Such would not have been the case if the disciples were simply speaking in the languages of the people there.
That prophecy is considered a more important gift in giving the Gospel is immaterial. That doesn't make the gift of tongues not important to the one who has it.
Stranger
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You and Enoch111 are making a wrong assumption at the start. You act like edifying oneself is wrong. Paul never indicates this. There is nothing wrong with the believer building himself up in the Holy Spirit. And the gift of tongues does do that for the one with the gift.
In your Greek dance you want to add the word conceit because it produces a negative picture. But the Greek word alone does not produce that. Just like in (Rom. 12:16) Paul said, "...Be not wise in your own conceits." There, conceit is correctly used as a warning is given by Paul. In (1 Cor. 14:1-5) there is nothing negative against unknown tongues. When one speaks in tongues, he speaks to God and speaks mysteries. (14:2) He edifieth himself. (14:4) Paul wished all spoke in tongues. (14:5).
That there was an abuse of tongues in the Corinthian church, yes. But that doesn't mean the gift of tongues is not to be allowed or that the one who has it is full of conceit.
Stranger
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I doubt anything will get past your argumentative role in this discussion but the Lord has been able to perform miracles so here goes ...
Paul did indicate this if you really think about it, because he said to those who speak in tongues, to pray that another interprets, and he said that even for himself when using tongues in the assembly because he would rather understand the tongue for that tongue to be fruitful to himself in the assembly.
1 Corinthians 14:12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church. 13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
The word wherefore connects verse 12 to verse 13, so don't even try to make verse 14 about praying in tongues, because verse 14 is Paul explaining why he would pray that someone else may interpret that tongue being manifested by the Holy Spirit in him.
14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
Verses 14-15 is another example of tongue speakers wanting to read Paul's words in wresting them as if one can really pray in tongues when he is explaining verse 13 in regards to himself when speaking in tongues in church; thus he is not actually praying in tongues, now is he?
Now if you contend that a believer can use tongues for private use, supposedly getting interpretations with his tongues, then why would Paul suggest that the tongue speaker prays that someone else will interpret when it comes to the assembly?
That is why you have to take what Paul said about tongues in 1 Corinthians 12:4-13 as premise for how to understand his words in 14th chapter because verse 11 limits the manifestations of the gifts for profiting the assembly; NOT the individual and Paul confirms what tongues are for to clear away any doubts by citing in the law what the real God's gift of tongues are for as well as what it actually is and that is of other men's lips to speak unto the people in 1 Corinthians 14:20-21 and it was never to serve as a sign to believers heeding another calling and thus another gospel in seeking to receive the Holy Spirit apart from salvation, BY THAT SIGN OF TONGUES ( 1 Corinthians 14:22 ) !!!
But if the Lord is not willing to get past your refusal to believe because of your pride, then your moniker is apt as one who follows a stranger's voice; which is also apt for tongues without interpretation as vain and profane babbling gibberish.
I'd rather pray normally and give the Father thanks in Jesus's name for known answers to prayer as well as get known edification from my KJV then pretend to know what you are doing from tongues in private use when you don't and cannot know what that tongue is doing for all the supposed benefits for tongues for private use. That is confusion to use tongues for private use which is why God is not the author of it but the devil was & is.
I never said there was anything wrong with praying for one to interpret. (1 Cor. 14:13) says one who has the gift of tongues should pray for an interpreter. And I already agreed that prophecy was a greater gift and more important in edifying the Church. But none of that takes away from the gift of tongues. And it doesn't take away from tongues being used by the individual outside the assembly. And it certainly does not prove that it is wrong for the believer to use tongues for the edifying of himself.
(1 Cor. 14:14) is about praying in an unknown tongue. "For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful." Seems pretty clear to me. That is praying in tongues. The believer exercising the gift edifies himself but does not have the understanding. If there is an interpreter, both are accomplished and it edifies those in the assembly. (14:15-16)
(1 Cor. 14:17) says, "For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified." Note Paul doesn't speak evil of the believer with the gift of tongues when there is no interpreter. He says they give thanks well. But no one else is edified. In other words, it is not wrong for the believer to exercise the gift of tongues for his self edification.
No one says you have to speak in tongues. At least I haven't heard anyone here say that. I certainly don't say that. But it is a gift of the Holy Spirit. It is used to the edifying of both the individual and the Church. It is only edifying to the Church if there is an interpreter.
The one exercising the gift of tongues in private does not have to know the interpretation. But the gift, because it is of the Holy Ghost, edifies the individual. And if it is of the Holy Ghost, then it is not confusion.
Stranger
Here is how we are to understand this (paraphrased): For if I pray in a foreign language which is unknown to me, my spirit prays, but my mind is not engaged.
Then Paul goes on to say that both the spirit and the mind must be engaged in prayer, which brings us back to ordinary prayer. If praying in a foreign language was critical, then both Christ and the apostles would have been doing this, and it would have been recorded for our benefit and as our example. But all we find is ordinary human language and simple prayers.
There are many today who claim that they pray in tongues. It is none of our business to argue with them. By the same token it is none of their business to claim that the Bible recommends this for all Christians.
Nancy
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Been there-did NOT do it...never will! Awesome and profound video!
That is quite a 'paraphrase' of (1 Cor. 14:14). Good thing it is not to be trusted. You replace 'unknown tongue' with 'foreign language'. You replace 'my understanding is unfruitful' with 'but my mind is not engaged'. Speaking in tongues does not disengage the mind. The one speaking does not have the understanding of what is being said. That doesn't mean the mind is disengaged. Seems to me that when you must turn to the Greek to try and manipulate what is being said, and when you turn to paraphrasing to try and manipulate what is being said, that you would stop and say, maybe I am wrong.
Praying in a foreign language was not critical. Praying in tongues however is a gift of the Holy Spirit. Tongues is not foreign languages of man. It is praying in the spirit. See again (1 Cor. 14:14). What benefit is there for a believer to pray in a foreign language of man. Is praying in the spirit to be associated with another language of man. How silly.
Well, concerning Christ, the disciples and others didn't understand half the time what He was saying in their own language. Much less had He spoken in tongues. Remember none had the Holy Ghost till (Acts 2). They would not have had the ability to interpret. As to Christ prayer in private we are not told. As to the disciples and others after the coming of the Holy Spirit, we are told. And you and others don't believe that. If you don't believe that, why would you believe more. You wouldn't.
If it's none of your business then why are you arguing? I don't hear anyone say tongues is for all believers. It is a gift of the Holy Spirit. Not everyone has it. But those that do, do have it.
Stranger
bbyrd009
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Jun2u
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As I’ve already observed, you just don’t seem to know how to read or understand Scriptures.
God has given His children the methodology on how to understand the deeper meaning of Scripture by comparing scripture with scripture and spiritual things with spiritual.
So that you know that I know the meaning of 1 Corinthians 14:20-21, I will point you to the scriptures without expounding on them as they are self explanatory. However, you may not like the scripture references but I’ll leave that between you and the Lord.
Verse 21) In the law it is written (Old Testament), With men of other tongues and other lips (foreign nations) will I speak unto this people (Ancient/National Israel); and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
Words in parenthesis are mine.
As I’ve said, the commentary on verse 21 above can be found in three scriptures. Deuteronomy 28:49; Isaiah 28:11-13; Jeremiah 5:15.
Now I’ll show you that the phenomenon of speaking in tongues has ceased and knowledge will vanish away also. The following passages are self explanatory too. I don’t see how you could have missed these Scriptures: 1 Corinthians 13:8-10.
But I will NOT do your homework for you. I want you to search out the Scripture for the meaning of speaking in tongues, and until you do, you will never understand why prophesying is much better than speaking in tongues.
To God Be the Glory
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In my KJV Bible, the footnotes for verse 21 are John 10:34;1 Corinthians 14:34, and Isaiah 28:11-12 so a little different for scriptural references and the commentary on that verse at the bottom of the page is referring law to specifically Isaiah 28:11-12 with cross reference to John 10:34 & Romans 3:20.
Since footnotes from Biblical scholars has designated the behemoth in Job 40 as a hippo or an elephant, He pointed out to me that neither one has a tail as long as a tree. AND surprisingly enough in that same verse, his sexual organs are internal which scientists only recently discovered.
So... not much for commentary to be taken at face value. You have to discern and prove everything by Him. You can't take any footnotes nor commentary at face value.
That being said, your bold in verse 21 opposes yourself, because as I do accept that it is foreign languages, it is hardly meant for ancient national Israel when they did not speak all those languages coming out of Egypt. You may not meant that, but God hardly needs to speak in foreign languages to the nation of Israel when their Hebrew language is suffice. For foreign Jews to even know what is going on in Jerusalem, they have to know the original Hebrew language AND that is why devout Jews from every nation under the heaven were surprised because they knew these native Jews were speaking in their native tongue from the foreign lands they live in.
I reckon I am trying to convey that God's gift of tongues was not meant to be limited to Israel when it is of foreign tongues.
I am familiar with that verse, but since Paul is testifying to tongues being manifested in church in the following chapter, the debate is when it has ceased, if it did at all.
Now the modern tongue I am speaking against is the one identified by believers as what they assume was the Holy Spirit coming over them later on in life as a saved believer apart from salvation which in according to our faith ( 2 Corinthians 13:5 ), cannot be the real indwelling Holy Spirit when He was promised to abide in us forever and that we will know Him by Him dwelling in us and not by the way the world knows spirits in receiving them again and again and again in John 14:16-17 & 2 Corinthians 11:3-4 as Paul did warn in 1 Timothy 4:3-4 & the apostle John in 1 John 4:1-6. The tongue I am speaking against has been in the world before Pentecost as proven in Isaiah 8:19 and by secular reports at the link below.
http://dividedbytruth.org/FD/sitnnc.htm
I am sure God's gift of prophesy has not ceased and somewhere in the world, the gospel may still be being preached in tongues understood by foreigners where interpretations are being done in the assembly of that church in that area, but the apostasy is widespread all over the world and God will be judging His House soon wherein the dispensation of the gospel will go back to the Jews, the 144,000 Witnesses, after the pre great trib rapture as 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel will be sealed. And they will not all be in Israel and the real God's gifts of tongues to speak unto foreigners may be revived again for them to be serving Him for teh duration of the great tribulation...
BUT because of the apostasy, I can understand why God is not manifesting His real gift of tongues in the assemblies where in the midst of Satan's tongues operating that has been in the world before Pentecost as coming without interpretation because it is just gibberish.
Yes.. only God can minister and only God causes the increase for why we are to be teaching in meekness and patience... FYI.
2 Timothy 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
Proverbs 27:17 Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.
JiF,
The post above, # 91, got a "LIKE" from me at first...… But, I had to remove it because the longer you talked, the more you went right back to some of your wild ideas.
The post above, # 91, got a "LIKE" from me at first...… But, I had to remove it because the longer you talked, the more you went right back to some of your wild ideas.
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Understandable that you would see it as wild ideas, but the one thing you are ignoring is that there is a supernatural tongue in the world that is just gibberish due to other spirits coming over them and so how can you guard against it if you really believe the Holy Spirit can come over a believer later on in life as saved believer bringing that kind of tongue for which you all are assuming also that it is for private use?
If you were one of those sinners... before coming to Christ... what assurances do you have that you have the real God's gift of tongues that does come with interpretation but then suddenly, you are talking as you did before you were saved for why no interpretation is coming? Would you not doubt that you were free of those spirits and that kind of tongue or not? But then if the whole church does it, he may just be tempted to not think anything of it and just go along with the crowd... and especially when he is alone in uttering tongues as it was before he was saved.
And how can any assembly know that these sinners had repented if they still bring that kind of tongues & thus their spirits into the assembly?
The one thing I fail to understand in all this "Satan did it" nonsense so many people spout is this:
THE FRUIT. If whatever thing you guys are against, and swear is from Satan...….. Why does it change people's lives to desire to follow God? And why do they go around giving Him glory and worship, spreading the gospel of Christ at every turn?
If your ideas are right, then Satan is shooting himself in the foot. I'm sorry, but I cannot buy the idea that Satan is going to deliberately increase God's fold. I suspect it is probably just some personal and private animosity that "those people" are not doing things MY way (No, your claim that your way is God's way, but anything else isn't, is bogus.) so therefore, what they are doing has to be of Satan.
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Remember the protests by those Jesus will deny in Matthew 7:21-23 ? They can say all the things you are saying, and more in Luke 13:24-30
BTW Can't Catholics be seen as saying and doing the same thing? Surely the Catholic Charismatic Church could.
Remember that fruit? It gathers grapes of thorns and figs of thistles as being ecumenical in nature. So explain how the Catholics are still Catholics for all that tongue speaking they do? So much for self edification.... not. So much for interpretation to those winging it; still Catholics, aren't they?
So they are not following God if they seek to follow also that stranger's voice which never comes with interpretation. That is the iniquity, brother.
Satan is causing many to go astray in the latter days. That was prophesied in 1 Timothy 4:1-2 and Paul said that the iniquity that will cause the falling away from the faith in droves was starting even back in his day in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-15 and in 2 Thessalonians 3:1-7 he addressed those wicked unreasonable men that have not faith that no longer walk after the traditions taught of us and are disorderly, that we are to withdraw from them not to treat them as the enemy, but to admonish them as brothers still because they are still brothers in 2 Thessalonians 3:14-15
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The end result of your conclusion is being oblivious to you because by your insistence that there are so many benefits to tongues for private use, you are pretty much telling Paul that he is a liar and that tongues for private use is way better than prophesy will ever be and yet 1 Corinthians 12:7 TOLD you what those manifestations are for and that is NOT for private use, but to profit the body withal for why tongues will NOT be coming WITHOUT interpretation.
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Let's say that since Paul has to pray that someone else may interpret the tongue coming from him, then there is no way interpretation is coming to that tongues for private use. Why pray for interpretation from another if one can get interpretation for private use? Missing the forest for all the trees.
Wow. Like too bad for everybody else that doesn't speak in tongues. Modest much?
You do not know what that tongue is doing without interpretation. YOU cannot tell if it is for self edifying or suddenly, He switches modes to uttering prayers. Now that would make God the author of confusion which He is not and therefore tongues for private use is not of Him, brother. Wake up.
More assumption on your part. And (1 Cor. 12:7) says nothing about tongues can't be used by the individual for self edification. In fact, every believer has a gift and they carry that gift with them wherever they go. In or out of the assembly.
Stranger
Comprehension. Interpretation is not required for the individual who speaks in tongues between himself and God. If God gives it, all the better. But it is not required for the believer to be edified by using the gift in private. The believer who has the gift of tongues is edified in just being able to use the gift of tongues. The church is edified only if there is an interpreter.
No confusion.
Stranger
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