End Time views

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Christina

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(Super Kal;55072)
i just want to point out that both Preterism and Futurism were ideas created by the Jesuit Order during the Great Reformation; Preterism by Luis De Alcasar and Futurism by Fransisco Ribera...now, please explain to me why Historicism is supposedly wrong, because I'm starting to see it as more of truth than any of the other viewsand one thing that Futurism does is put in a huge gap between Daniel's 69th and 70th prophetic week... so that don't make any sense to me anymore... and you also can't ignore what Revelation 1:1 says... "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass;"and I have to disagree with the "only futurism fits", because when you study Papal Rome and the rise and fall of ancient Rome, the puzzle fits perfectly...now if it were in the future, then why did John say that these things would shortly come to pass?... that doesn't make any sense... it would make sense if he said something else, like "happen in a time where I am dead" or something
Well in part you are right the parts of the futurists veiw were taught in very early writtings but it was pretty much lost in time. Of course the things in the past fit for the most part they were the types. Same way Jonah being in the fish three days would fit the description of Christ in the Tomb three days, But we know Jonah wasnt Christ he was a type. Types fit the fulfilled act thats why they are called types.You have to remember God is outside time to him hes only been gone a short time thats pretty filmsy reason sense God tells us one day to him is a 1000 years to men. Soon is relative. John was forward in time he was Taken to Lords Day and is Looking back in time as his vision is described.If you take away the 70th week please explain to me all the times in Rev. how do explain away the fact Daniel says the Abomination of desolation takes place in the middle of the week half of 7 is 3 1/2 years =1260 days or 42 Months they are all the same. Now if the Abomination occured in the past what are the numbers in Rev. based on ?? If not the middle of the week. Can you say this is not Antichrist in this verse.Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty [and] two months. (3 1/2 years)There are so many things in scripture that are left unexplained with the Historical veiw. The more I learned the more it did not fit. You can not just ignore what doesnt fit . Thats why we are told to come to the Word like a child without preconceived notions. God tells us there is nothing new under the sun, That is, what has happened before(the types) will happen again...... I take him at his Word.
 

Super Kal

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now hold on... even you have told me and others in the past in another thread that 2 Peter 3:8 is not meant to be taken that way... you've told me that it is a promise to give assure us that we will get what He promises and not to be used literally as a thousand years is like a day to God...
 

Christina

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I have never told you that about Peter 3:8 others may have but not me I have argued this many times every one here will atest to that. I have shown you that this was a Hebrew figure of speech. The Jews clearly understood this. It was men historacal view that clouded this teaching. it is exactly as it is written and I have never said different. Heres basically what I believe is written/w the scripyuresA strictly literal hermaneutic is foundational to the dispensational premillenialist viewpoint. Interpreting Scripture in this manner will in fact demand such perspectives unique to dispensationalism as:an earthly kingdom of God from which Christ will reign a future redemptive plan for national Israel a seven year period of great tribulation Dispensational premillennialism holds that a seven-year tribulation (forseen in Daniel 9:27) will precede a thousand-year period (Revelation 20:1-6) during which time, Christ will reign on the throne of David (Luke 1:32). ." During this time of tribulation, there will be three-and-a-half years of world peace under an AntiChrist figure (Daniel 7:8; Revelation 13:1-8) who will establish a world-church (Revelation 17:1-15), followed by three-and-a-half years of greater suffering (Revelation 6-18). At the end of this period, Christ will return (Matthew 24:27-31; Revelation 19:11-21), judge the world (Ezekiel 20:33-38; Matthew 25:31; Jude 14-15), bind Satan for one thousand years (Revelation 20:1-3), and raise the Old Testament and tribulation saints from the dead (Daniel 12:2; Revelation 20:4). At this time, the millennial reign will begin and Christ will reign politically over the earth at this time from His capital in Jerusalem (Isaiah 2:3). Throughout His reign, there will be no war (Isaiah 2:4) and even the natures of animals will dwell in harmony (Isaiah 11:6-9). At the end of this era of peace, Satan will be released and instigate a colossal (but futile) rebellion against God (Revelation 20:7-9). After this fated battle, Satan and the wicked are cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:10), while the righteous proceed into their eternal state in the realm of the new heaven and the new earth Revelation 21:1ff).
 

Super Kal

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it had something to do with the Thousand Year Reign...okay... on Daniel 9:27... let's read more than just verse 27... let's try 24-27, because it gives us a clearer picture on what Daniel is saying "24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."the very first verse says these 70 weeks are determined by "thy people and upon thy holy city"... it doesn't say anything about God's time, so if that's the case how did the Jews and Jerusalem view it as?and another thing... are we absolutely sure that it is the Antichrist that Daniel 9:27 is talking about?and I don't doubt the Thousand Year Reign, kriss... I know that is literal; You've explained that to me already. It's everything else that I question about it...
 

Christina

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I was editing
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Super Kal

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I was too
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also, I know futurists say that the seventieth week hasn't begun yet... when is it supposed to begin?and I'm not trying to attack anyone on here... I really do just want to learn about all of it, and all sides, to be honest, because in all honesty, all we can do is speculate on which one it is, since only the Father knows what will happen
 

Christina

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Let me ask you where are the verses explaining that scripture should be read as history by future/latter Generations that within a few years after his death on the cross all prophecys would be fulfilled? No he says he spoke in parables, like the fig tree to place the last Generation in a time frame. He gave us prophecy that has not yet been fulfilled and then told us what to expect if we dismiss these things as all past what are we to prepare for did he leave out in the cold with no instructions??
 

Super Kal

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Let me ask you where are the verses explaining that scripture should be read as history by future/latter Generations that within a few years after his death on the cross all prophecys would be fulfilled? No he says he spoke in parables, like the fig tree to place the last Generation in a time frame. He gave us prophecy that has not yet been fulfilled and then told us what to expect if we dismiss these things as all past what are we to prepare for did he leave out in the cold with no instructions??
but at the time when John wrote Revelation, it wasn't all in the past... it was all in his future and carried on after he died
 

Christina

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I was too
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also, I know futurists say that the seventieth week hasn't begun yet... when is it supposed to begin?and I'm not trying to attack anyone on here... I really do just want to learn about all of it, and all sides, to be honest, because in all honesty, all we can do is speculate on which one it is, since only the Father knows what will happen
I never felt attacked
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I know you are searching. Ask away.Thats the parable of the fig tree that tells us that Last generation started in 1948 when Israel was restored as a nation for the first time in 2000 years. The generation that sees this happen will not all die before he comes. Those are Gods Words not mine. So sometime before the last person dies that was born in 1948 the seven years will happen. That was 60 years ago so they are getting old. But know one knows the hour or the Day but we are to know the season and it started in 1948by the way this parable is another teaching the historian has to throw out it wont fit
 

Super Kal

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but has Israel always been referred to as a fig tree?... is it not referred to more as an olive tree?and we also have to look at what Mark and Luke said when it comes to the Olivet Discourse, because Matthew, Mark, and Luke all compliment each other
 

Christina

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but at the time when John wrote Revelation, it wasn't all in the past... it was all in his future and carried on after he died
Think of it this way you are taken into the future say the year 3000 with a cell phone that can call us now(2008)Now describe what happens in 2050 to you friends. To you 2050 from where you are in the future is past even though when you come back here 2050 will be future. Thats the view John had
 

Super Kal

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but we don't know exactly what he saw... none of us were there, so we really can't make any assumption on what he saw... all we know is what he wrote, and like I said, "shortly hereafter" tells me that it's something that will shortly comeand on another note, I've always been curious as to what the first part of Matthew 24:26 meant "Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth:", because that really sounds like the birth of the Islamic religion to me...
 

Mary007

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I love studing about end times..Finis Dake who wrote the Dake bible had some wonderful teachings. I listen to some his teaching on the clearvisionbiblestudies site and got a LOT of understanding.
 

Super Kal

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for those who don't beleive in the rapture... what are your views on the Two Witnesses?do you believe that Revelation 11 talks literally of two people or do you believe it is a symbolic representation of something else?and having said that, what about the sealed 144,000?... do you take that as literal or symbolic?
 

Jake99

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I always think about many years in the future and what the world could be if it were managed properly. The day the Messiah gets his foot on the head of the U.S. will be the greatest day in human history.
 

Jerusalem Junkie

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so... what are they symbolic of?
Don't know. But I did sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night...........
 

Super Kal

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anyways, with the views of the end times, I've always wondered: the first 5 seals... are they part of the Great Tribulation or are they separate from it?
 

Christina

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The thing about the seals is they are not necessarily in order and can be happening simultaneouslyThe trumps are our Guide the the proper sequences to blow the trumpet is a call to action. If a battle or feast day was about to start you blew a trumpet to herald the beginning. Now first seal is the first white horse many including myself believe this to be Antichrist on his way though some say differnt. Upon the search of the realm of the universe, it was found that Jesus Christ is the only one that can break the seals, and reveal what is in the book. This is because Jesus Christ is found worthy. He was qualified because of His sacrifice of His shed blood on the cross. He is going to open the seals now for you and I. Praise His Holy Name.Revelation 6:1 "And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts [living creatures] saying, Come and see."God would never say, "Come and see", if He never expected you to see and understand the vision of John. The order from Jesus to John is to write what you see so that each of us living in this generation could come and see with understanding what we are about to read. Revelation 6:2 "And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer."This one who rode on the white horse had a bow, but without arrows. He had the authority, but not the strength to back up his authority. What strength that he did have, was through deception. The rider of the white horse is Satan, in the role of the Antichrist. Satan will come first as the fake Christ, the Antichrist; and he will ride and conquer the people of the entire earth.This first seal we will see in detail in the ninth chapter. It takes place after the fifth trumpet sounds, Satan is the first morning star to come. This event will catch many Christians off-guard, for many tie themselves to the '"rapture doctrine", and will worship the Antichrist as the true Christ, in ignorance. This is why the rapture doctrine is so dangerous, for it ties its followers to the first Christ to come, who is the Antichrist.The rider of this white horse is not the rider of the white horse who comes with a rainbow around his head, and a rainbow around the throne he leaves. This "bow" in the Greek is a cheap fabric, or imitation, In the Greek it's called "toxon". His grandeur will be cheap, yet convincing all of those who are looking for the rider of the "first horse" to fly them out of here. The Antichrist will offer them all they desire in fulfilling their wishes.Word References:"bow" - 5115 toxon (tox'-on); from the base of 5088; a bow (apparently as the simplest fabric): KJV-- bow. In the nineteenth chapter we will see the true Christ coming in all his glory, and then this first rider of the white horse will go to the pit. The first rider of the white horse does not come in war, for no arrows are mentioned; but in religious peace. This is important to remember, for it is what we are told of Antichrist that he comes in peacefully and prosperouslyNow I believe the next several seals are the build up to the deadly wound that will be healed by Antichrist that Revelation 6:3 "And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see."We are told to open our eyes and come and see/understand Revelation 6:4 "And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword."The term "red" in the Scriptures has two meanings, "war", and "Esau". We are living in the time of the end, and as such, Esau [Russia, or Rosh]. "Power was given to take peace from the earth." Revelation 6:5 "And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse: and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand."Balances stands for justice, and black represents famine. There will be famines in the land just as there is today, but the famine in the end time is not for bread or water, but for hearing the truth of God's Word. (Reference: Amos 8:11-12).6And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine. There will be famines in the land as stated in (Matthew 24:7 and Mark 13:8) and a time is coming when you will work a full day for a loaf of bread. Were not that far off now with the rising cost of living. People barely getting by working paycheck to paycheck, without even a dollar left over at the end of the day.7And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. The fourth living creature says to look with understanding. 8And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth. We are speaking here of the "Beast System"Now we switch to the veiw from heaven 9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: Back to the beginning of time, all those souls who stood up for the Word of God. 10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? The revenge of the Lord for all those souls that were persecuted for following God.The sixth seal is the coming of Antichrist 12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; The sky turns dark because of all the deception and lies. 13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. The figs that are harvested out of season. Notice the warning out of season here we an earth quake we also see an earth quake at Christ true coming but here it is out of season this is the Antichrist faking /copying the true Christ The fake christ Antichrist comes at the 6th seal /6th trump/ 6th vial the true Christ not until the 7th trump