Focusing on Hell is all about Ego

bbyrd009 said:

Quote it then

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That we have a body after we die? Well...I just did...in the post you ignored. But here it is again:

But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. - 1 Corinthians 15:20–23

But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?” You foolish person! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. And what you sow is not the body that is to be, but a bare kernel, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain. - 1 Corinthians 15:35–37

So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. - 1 Corinthians 15:42–44

Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven. - 1 Corinthians 15:49

Let me spell it out: when the resurrection of the dead happens, we will be given a new body, one like Christ's new body, a spiritual, imperishable body.

nope, i'll need you to Quote that too, sorry.

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That Christ had a physical body after his resurrection? Sure.

When he was at table with them, he took the bread and blessed and broke it and gave it to them. - Luke 24:30

See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.” And when he had said this, he showed them his hands and his feet. And while they still disbelieved for joy and were marveling, he said to them, “Have you anything here to eat?” They gave him a piece of broiled fish, and he took it and ate before them. - Luke 24:39–43

Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe.” - John 20:27

When they got out on land, they saw a charcoal fire in place, with fish laid out on it, and bread. Jesus said to them, “Bring some of the fish that you have just caught.” So Simon Peter went aboard and hauled the net ashore, full of large fish, 153 of them. And although there were so many, the net was not torn. Jesus said to them, “Come and have breakfast.” Now none of the disciples dared ask him, “Who are you?” They knew it was the Lord. Jesus came and took the bread and gave it to them, and so with the fish. - John 21:9–13

We see Jesus taking and holding physical objects. We see him eating food and we see others touching him. We also hear him say that he is flesh and bones. It's pretty clear evidence. And then we have Paul telling us that Jesus is the firstfruits, and that we, like him, will be given an imperishable body at the resurrection. I'm not sure how else you interpret that.

If Christ has never left you nor forsook you, Naomi, how did He "return" in a "body?"
Wadr i know where the Body of Christ is, and you should, too?

i have to go um be really sad and rethink my whole prog here for a minute, i might be back ok. but i might not too. in which case i hope the best for you k

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It's the wonder of the Trinity, that's how. To start off with, God is omnipresent, so, right out of the gate, he is always 'with us'. But Christ gave us his promise that even after his death and resurrection he would remain with us...in the form of the Spirit:

And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, - John 14:16

But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. - John 14:26

“But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me. - John 15:26

Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you. And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: concerning sin, because they do not believe in me; concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no longer; - John 16:7–10

The Holy Spirit points us to Christ, reminds us of Christ's words and works and upholds Christ in every possible way in the life of every believer. In this way Christ is with us...he tells us himself that this way is "to our advantage". I think we can trust him on that.

bbyrd009 said:

sorry Naomi, but in the context you have placed it, it is pure fiction. And i guess i could fill the page with refutes that will not make any sense to you, i guess, so i dunno what to even say now that you could hear. You died in Adam but you were still walking around and more or less doing just fine, right. So where did we get the idea that New Life in Christ involved something "new in the world," that is not ever going to happen?

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Only the entire orthodox Christian faith down through the centuries believe in this. But if you don't, that's okay. You don't need to follow the crowd...or scripture. It's not that important anyway, is it?

aspen said:

I think bbyd might be talking about people’s perception of others....and how perceptions do not match reality? Maybe?

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Maybe. But who can tell? So...firstly he makes a point that we "reap what we sew"...therefore it's our own fault when we have children with cancer or autism. Being autistic and having children with autism, I find that notion rather offensive, as it assumes we are faulty. It's not a good start.
Then he makes a point that everyone see's a different version of you. This is a valid and interesting point.
Buuut, then he goes back to the strains in our stomach having the right to life, or something, and that we're abusing them by trying to chose heaven, or something. Because looking for an afterlife means we eat sugar, and that means we're killing our stomach. Maybe.
I mean...am I the ONLY one who ? I don't mind out of the box thinking. Heck, I'm on the spectrum, we invented that stuff! But honestly, trying to catch that rabbit trail of his thinking is beyond me. I try, I really do...but.

aspen said:

Ha yeah, i thought I was the only one too when i first read his posts. He does have good things to say quite often, but......

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I grant you, he encourages 'out side the line' thinking, which I am not opposed to. However, my concern is that he often pushes these ideas at the expense of scripture and clear bible thinking. Philosophy is great, but when you try and elevate it beyond scripture; denying scripture in the process, concluding that ones own thought processes can exceed the written word of God...then we have a big problem.
Case in point our last conversation. Despite the numerous chapter and verse that tell us that we can expect life beyond the grave, he mocks the idea, choosing instead to focus on breaking down how we can really tell what is essentially "us" when the majority of "us" is more bacteria than fluid. Or something. He seems to strive to turn the conversation away from the bible and towards how we should holistically treat our health, and how we should perceive our consciousness and what makes a person a person. All well and good, I suppose, but it has absolutely zero standing in this conversation and only serves to distract and confuse, not build up and enrich it. What does the bible say about 'self'? Well...it doesn't talk about us being made of bacteria. It talks about spirit and it talks about body. And strangely enough, it has something to say about both of those before and after death. One wonders why he cannot just enter into a conversation about that, rather than poking fun at people for believing something they actually have pretty decent biblical proof for (which he ignores) and then changing the topic. It seems a fairly poor conversational tactic to me.

aspen said:

Sorry...didn’t mean to step on your toes....

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Haha!
You have great humour....love it!


@Naomi25

My opinion, which you never ask for....

Bbyrd009 is a good guy....the Site would not be he same without him..
You did well, 10 out of 10 for endurance.
Stick with him...he often comes out with a real gem.

Bless you....H

Phoneman777 said:

the prohibition against praying and worshiping false gods does not establish their existence

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ah, doesn't seem like it would, huh, but i have just recently been smacked with the possibility that that is more or less exactly what happens! i'd maybe use "manifest" instead of "establish." It's in a snip about "imagination" i'll track down, love to hear your input.

bbyrd009 said:

"
Both Agent K and Willy Wonka were right: there is vast potential in imagination and there's nothing "unreal" about it. A realization — as in: "I just realized ... " — is precisely that: making something real. The magnificent noun δοξα(doxa), meaning "glory" or rather "image-forming", comes from the verb δοκεω (dokeo), meaning to imagine, and the entire universe exists in God's pure imagination (Psalm 33:9, HEBREWS 11:3)..." http://www.abarim-publications.com/DictionaryG/a/a-g-g-e-l-o-sfin.html#.W4BbtuhKiUl

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Phoneman777 said:

but such prohibition exists as a defense against some hidden danger - the danger of being deceived by "the spirits of devils working miracles"

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ah, Doctors, you mean. Well, i guess it takes a miracle to convince a nation to go $25,000,000,000,000,000 into debt too, so prolly whatever those guys are too i guess. Dentists, ya.

this is kinda why i dislike personifying spirits, too; we got fat, sick, nearly dead ppl singing the praises of Prescriptions and blithely admitting that they would prefer to ask their doctor, who will almost surely not even live as long as they will! "Dead doctors don't lie"

Naomi25 said:

I'm sorry. But are you on drugs?

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lol. Given the subject you gotta admit the irony is pretty rich there Naomi.

Naomi25 said:

That we have a body after we die? Well...I just did...in the post you ignored. But here it is again:

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aw, Naomi, wasn't ignoring those, sorry, and you don't have to recognize the Body of Christ if you don't want to, ok. If you want to believe all that happens in some tomorrow for you, and not after you die at baptism, and you read "body" in there somewhere, then go for it ok. You might adopt the opposite pov just to test it, or not, that's up to you too

Naomi25 said:

Let me spell it out:

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ha, ok
ty
if the crown fits, wear it!

Naomi25 said:

We see Jesus taking and holding physical objects. We see him eating food and we see others touching him. We also hear him say that he is flesh and bones. It's pretty clear evidence. And then we have Paul telling us that Jesus is the firstfruits, and that we, like him, will be given an imperishable body at the resurrection. I'm not sure how else you interpret that.

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in the context of death @ baptism, Naomi, instead of the Cult of Sol Invictus, and you can highlight/search for arguments that would be clearer to you than i am prolly

Naomi25 said:

I think we can trust him on that.

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you'll see Him come down the same way you saw Him go up i guess, Naomi
try trusting that maybe

Phoneman777 said:

The Bible refers to him as "Samuel"

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i've spent the last couple days bouncing this off of ppl who are better versed in dialectic thought than me (rabbis; more or less), and while i did not really register this in your post at the time, the universal (among 3) comment was that the Bible would be lying to us here, if "Samuel said" was not qualified in some way, ie "the spirit who appeared to be Samuel," or something similar. She saw "a god ["elohim"] coming up out of the earth"; "an old man . . . wrapped in a cloak," so various devices could have been used to suggest Samuel without naming him, yet they were not. A quote from this link, from this search, more or less sums up the three opinions:
"
The story throws light on the prevailing beliefs of primitive Israel concerning the possibility of summoning the dead and consulting them. Discussions concerning the historical veracity of this report, and attempts to reconcile its contents with natural laws by assuming that the woman palmed off some fraud on the excited king exhausted by previous fasting, miss the point of the Biblical account. The scene is really a satire on King Saul,and the summoning of the dead is introduced only incidentally. He, the destroyer of the necromancers, forsaken by Yhwh, himself repairs to a witch's house, but has only his pains for his trouble. Samuel refuses to help, and reiterates what Saul's fears had anticipated (Grüneisen, "Der Ahnenkultus und die Urreligion Israels," pp. 152-154, Halle, 1900)..."

none of which proves that you are not correct, imo; the spirit of Samuel could have been lying, but then everything else he said came true, so you would have to develop a reason why he might have been lying there (i can think of a few, and lyingeven to deceive--is not universally condemned in Scripture as most believe anyway; ref Rahab, etc)...but then other Witnesses to the concept, "all go to the same place," etc--which Christ even rephrased, more than once i think--would have to be questioned i guess? Search provided bc there is maybe some good ammo in there, and i am biased now.

But i guess most Jews do not believe that Samuel was really channelled anyway, and tbh i don't either, i guess. Meaning that i don't doubt any truth in what "Samuel" said there, but i do think it was constructed, and not the main point of the passage.

"ByGrace" said:

@Naomi25

My opinion, which you never ask for....

Bbyrd009 is a good guy....the Site would not be he same without him..
You did well, 10 out of 10 for endurance.
Stick with him...he often comes out with a real gem.

Bless you....H

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I never mind your opinion!
I'm not sure I can or should try and "stick with him"...for the sake of my own sanity, or the peace on this board! Half of what he says sounds to me like hes eaten a mushroom he shouldn't. And I'm not trying to be mean...that's honestly my perception. I sit and scratch my head and read it several times...and while the words form sentences, the ideas behind them seem randomn and illogical. That could just be me, but there it is.
The other half the time he is either backing something unbiblical, dismissing or mocking something that is. He seems to totally disregard any bible verses you give to back your point, instead preferring to rely on his own mind and philosophical thinking to 'win the day'. As Christians, this is not how we function. Yes we rely on logic and reason...they don't vacate as soon as we believe. But if you say you don't, or won't, believe the bible holds truth, or that we can know God through that word, or that we can see and understand what God has for us in this life and the next through that word...then I can't see how you can claim to BE a Christian.
No...I think perhaps a wise person knows when it's best to just...bow out, step back. Perhaps I didn't do that soon enough.

@Naomi25

Bless youNaomi.

bbyrd009 said:

Meaning that i don't doubt any truth in what "Samuel" said there

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we have a completely different conception of terms like "eternal" and "Gehenna" and "Hades" than the ancient Jews did, and we effectively live on a completely different planet than they did, too. I'm not sure when "Life, More Abundantly" turned into "i can't wait to die and go to heaven," but we have devolved in other ways since then too i guess.

Of course no believer wants to admit it but what they really mean by "eternal life" is "immortal life," and no amount of explanation is going to serve a little kid waiting there for the present i guess.

We accept hell for others in order to attain the possibility of heaven for ourselves, not realizing that this spells doom for us