Rome is NOT the Fourth Beast

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Literalist-Luke

New Member
Mar 18, 2008
57
0
0
58
Babylon’s “Future-History”
While the Roman Empire did indeed follow the Greek Empire in chronological history, it is a common error to believe that the Roman Empire is the fulfillment of Daniel’s fourth beast and John’s beast in Revelation. We must remember the context of the Book of Daniel and more specifically Daniel 7 and this particular vision. This passage deals with a vision that came on the heels of a dream (in Daniel 2) that was given to Nebuchadnezzar, the Babylonian king. Our Western-centric lenses have caused us to miss the obvious: God was not explaining the “future-history” of England or America or Europe or even specifically the future of Jerusalem to Nebuchadnezzar and Daniel. Instead, God was showing them the “future-history” of Mesopotamia, the area where Nebuchadnezzar and Daniel lived. The dream from Chapter 2 and the vision from Chapter 7 were descriptions of the future of the Babylonian Empire and the three primary empires that would rule Babylon after Nebuchadnezzar. While Rome was most certainly an important empire in world history from a Western perspective, its real significance to the Mesopotamian region, east of the Euphrates is actually quite minimal. Even during the period of the Roman Empire’s greatest eastward expansion, it was never able to fully secure control over the regions east of the Euphrates River. In the year 116 A.D. under Emperor Trajan, the Romans “conquered” portions of Mesopotamia. But it was within only a year, in 117 A.D., at the death of Trajan that the Romans lost southern Mesopotamia and retreated from the region. They were never able to secure control over the region in any substantial way. Because Nebuchadnezzar’s dream covered a thirteen hundred year period, dealing with only the significant conquering empires, the Roman Empire is essentially a mere footnote in Babylonian/Mesopotamian history and thus it was not even included in Nebuchadnezzar’s dream. But the primary empires that would actually conquer and rule over Babylon were all included in the dream as we shall see here.A Brief History of MesopotamiaAfter his rule, Nebuchadnezzar’s empire would first be conquered by the Persians under Cyrus and then by Greece under Alexander the Great. After the division, decentralization, and demise of the Greek Empire, the region was controlled by what has come to be known as the Parthian and the Sassanid Empires. Little is actually known of the Parthian Empire; unfortunately, not much of their literature has survived. And while many gaps exist in the history of that period in this region, what we do know is that it was a period of loosely organized tribalism during which a strong sense of Persian and Greek/Hellenistic identity was maintained throughout the region. After the Parthian Empire, the Sassanid Empire was able to cement its position in the region, but its identity was still primarily Persian and Greek. Both the rulers and the peoples of the Sassanid Empire viewed themselves as the Persian successors to the Seleucid (Greek) Empire. For this reason, within Nebuchadnezzar’s dream, there was no distinction made between the Persian or the Greek Empires and the later Parthian or Sassanid period because the culture remained essentially the same. It was not until the Islamic Caliphate came and once again conquered the entire region that the Chapter 2 dream described the next “kingdom”.Ancient Jewish Commentators And The Fourth KingdomAmong the interpretations of the various Jewish rabbis and commentators throughout history, there exists a group that supports this position. Among the most well-known rabbis who support this view are Ibn Ezra, one of the most distinguished Jewish writers of the Middle Ages, and Rabbi Yechiel Hillel ben Altshuller, author of the famous Metzudos. It is interesting to see the opinions of these Jewish sages. According to Ibn Ezra:Rome is included in the third kingdom as relatives of the Greeks. The Romans are considered to be the Kittim mentioned in Numbers 24:24. In Genesis 10:4, Kittim are the sons of Yavan (Greece). The fourth kingdom according to Ibn Ezra, is the Arab kingdom. – “Daniel A New Translation with Commentary Anthologized from Talmudic, Midrashic and Rabbinic Sources”, Mesorah Publications (Brooklyn, New York 1969), p. 104Ibn Ezra, argues that while there are reasons to understand why Rome is not mentioned in the dream, the complete omission of the mighty and extensive Arab kingdom is simply too big of an oversight that needs to be explained by those who hold to the Roman interpretation. It Will Crush And Break All The OthersBut beyond the contextual reasons to reject the inclusion of the Roman Empire in the Book of Daniel, there are other significant problems with the traditional Roman view. Perhaps the most obvious flaw in seeing the fourth kingdom as the Roman Empire is the single description used to define this kingdom in Daniel 2. This description reads as follows:There will be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron—for iron breaks and smashes everything—and as iron breaks things to pieces, so it will crush and break all the others. —Daniel 2:40So the question is: Did Rome crush or even conquer all of the other empires? Did Rome crush the Babylonian, the Medo-Persian and the Greek Empires? The clear answer is no, it did not. In fact, it is surprising that this fact has been overlooked for so long. The fourth empire would crush and break all three of the other empires. Yet history shows that Rome in fact never conquered the Persian Empire. It never conquered any of the various capital cities of the Medo-Persian Empire. And as we discussed above, the Roman Empire only controlled the ancient city of Babylon for less than one year. While Rome did indeed conquer all of Western Europe and the region surrounding the Mediterranean, it could never maintain any significant control of the region to the east of the Euphrates. The guerrilla warfare used by tribal peoples of Parthia simply proved to be too much for the Roman soldiers to withstand. Also, it should be pointed out that while the Roman Empire did conquer the Greek Empire, it was in fact the Hellenistic/Greek culture that came to dominate the Roman Empire, not the other way around. In other words, the Roman Empire may have taken control of the western regions of the Greek Empire, but it most certainly did not “crush” it, and the eastern regions of the Greek Empire were virtually untouched by Rome.Here is a very helpful excerpt from Wikipedia’s “Roman Republic” article:
Greek influence on RomeIt is likely that the Romans first came in contact with Greek civilization through the Greek city-states in southern Italy and in Sicily (both of which formed Magna Graecia — “Greater Greece”). These colonies had been established as a result of Greek expansion that took place in these two areas beginning in the eighth century BC. There is a remarkable commonality between the world of classical Athens and the classical world of Magna Graecia. As proof of this, one need look no further than the Greek temples in Akragas and Silinus in Sicily and the Parthenon of Athens to see that they partake of the same style of architecture at virtually the same level of architectural refinement. Thucydides documents the substantial political and military contacts that the Greek city-states of Sicily had with Sparta and Athens during the Peloponnesian War, and how the Syracusans allied with Sparta were able to defeat the military forces of Athens as they laid siege to Syracuse.This, inasmuch as trading, as well as the mere day to day interaction between peoples of different cultures, provided opportunities for the Romans to gain exposure to Greek culture, literature, architecture, political and philosophical ideas, religious beliefs and traditions. There was a great sharing of ideas and culture among the peoples of the Mediterranean Sea while Rome was developing into the dominant power in the area.The Latin alphabet was certainly influenced by the Greek alphabet, and the Latin language itself contains many words of Greek origin. Latin literature was also influenced by the Greeks as well. Early Latin plays were sometimes translations of Greek plays, and different types of poetry often were modeled after their counterparts, such as Virgil's Aeneid on the Homeric Epics. It was not uncommon for wealthy Romans to send their sons to Greece for the purpose of study, most notably in Athens. This Roman passion of Hellenic culture would increase over time.Greek and Latin became the lingua franca of the eastern half of the Mediterranean area.ReligionThe Romans worshipped a number of gods, among which the triad Jupiter, Mars, and Quirinus were pre-eminent. Later this triad was supplanted by the Capitoline Triad, Jupiter, Juno, and Minerva. Religious ceremonies on behalf of the state were delegated to a strict system of priestly offices under the governance of the College of Pontiffs, with at its head the Pontifex maximus was the most important. Flamens took care of the cults of various gods, while augurs were trusted with taking the auspices. The Rex Sacrorum, or "sacrificial king" took on the religious responsibilities of the deposed kings.From the earliest days of the Republic, foreign gods were imported, especially from Greece, which had a great cultural influence on the Romans. In addition, the Romans connected some of their indigenous deities with Greek gods and goddesses.
So we can see that, even though there was a transfer of power to the Italian peninsula, Rome most certainly did not “crush” Greek civilization but in fact adopted it, no less. Therefore Rome would seem to be most properly viewed as an extension of the Alexandrian Empire.So while the Roman Empire did not fulfill the necessary requirements to be considered as the fourth empire of Daniel 2, there nevertheless was an empire that did meet these requirements: The Islamic/Ottoman Empire. Islam conquered all of the previous three empires—Babylon, Persia and Greece. It also conquered the entire eastern Byzantine Roman Empire as well, which, by the time that happened in 1453 AD, was all that remained of the Roman Empire. And in the case of the Islamic Caliphate, “crush” is most certainly an appropriate description for what occurs when Islam conquers any region. Babylon lost both its language and its religion. Persia also lost its religion while its alphabet was Arabicized. Other nations like Egypt also lost their ancient languages. The Hellenized lands to the west of Babylon, once occupied by the Greek and Roman Empires, were completely “crushed” by the Islamic influence. In fact, it would require volumes to recount all of the history, culture and religious influence that has nearly been erased by over a millennium of Islamic dominance over these regions. So after a brief look at the history of this region, it is impossible to say that the Roman Empire crushed and broke all of the other empires, yet the various manifestations of Islamic Empire did precisely this. The Kingdom Will Be “Mixed”But just in case there remains any doubt as to the nature of the final empire, the Divine author of the Book of Daniel was kind enough give us another very direct clue only three verses later in verse 43:“And in that you saw the iron mixed with common clay, they will combine with one another in the seed of men; but they will not adhere to one another, even as iron does not combine with pottery.” —Daniel 2:43Take note of the words “mixed” and “combine”. They are actually the same words translated differently. What is amazing about this seemingly irrelevant word translated as “combined”, “mixture” or “mixed” is that in Aramaic (the original language of much of the Book of Daniel), the word is actually “arab”. And thus this passage quite literally reads: “And just as you saw the iron mixed (arab) with baked clay, so the people will be a mixture (arab) and will not remain united, any more than iron mixes (arab) with clay.”—Daniel 2:43 (NIV)Click HERE to see the Aramaic for yourself.This form of word-play-hint directing us to the type of people that would make up the final Antichrist Empire is not without precedent in the Book of Daniel. Another quite famous example of word-play relating to a particular people group that would conquer Babylon also occurs in chapter 5. There, Belshazzar, the final Babylonian king was told via the divine handwriting on the wall that his empire would be divided (peres) to the Medes and the Persians (Aramaic: Paras). Reading the word peres (meaning divided), Daniel then declared to King Belshazzar:“‘Peres’—your kingdom has been divided and given over to the Medes and Persians.” —Daniel 5:28This event occurred decades after Nebuchadnezzar’s dream of the statue. It is not hard to imagine that even as God hinted to the last Babylonian King concerning the people that were about to conquer Babylon, so also might the Lord have hinted to Nebuchadnezzar in his dream that the Arabs would be the source of the last Empire that would conquer Babylon. In the ancient near-eastern world, Arabs were specifically viewed as a mixed people. Because the various descendants of Ishmael and Esau had so intermarried among the various desert tribes, they had actually become known as “the mixed ones”. In the Book of Nehemiah, after the Book of the Law was discovered in the Temple, all of the people gathered together to hear the word of the Lord: “On that day the Book of Moses was read aloud in the hearing of the people and there it was found written that no Ammonite or Moabite should ever be admitted into the assembly of God, because they had not met the Israelites with food and water but had hired Balaam to call a curse down on them. (Our God, however, turned the curse into a blessing.) When the people heard this law, they excluded from Israel all who were of foreign descent.” —Nehemiah 13:1-3After reading the Law, the Jews realized that it was prohibited to have taken the peoples from the surrounding nations for their wives. Specifically mentioned are the Ammonites and the Moabites. These were both descendants of Esau who lived in what is today the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan. The King James Version more accurately translates the phrase “all who were of foreign descent” as “the mixed multitude”. Again here, as in Daniel, this specific phrase “mixed multitude” in the Hebrew is ereb or ay’-reb. Again, Aramaic was the language that was spoken by the Jews at the time of Nehemiah. As such, this word was more than likely arab. And so the verse was essentially saying, “When the people heard this law, they excluded from Israel all who were of Arab descent.” The point in all of this is that in the ancient near east, the word mixed and arab were essentially synonymous. The very name Arab in its etymological origins refers to the mixed people that lived primarily to the east of Israel. A Kingdom DividedBut beyond being an Arab Empire, the last-days empire is also said to be a divided (peleg) empire. The division of course that this passage speaks of is truly an appropriate description of the Islamic world as it has existed from its earliest days until modern times with its various sectarian divisions.“In that you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron it will be a divided kingdom.”—Daniel 2:41One need only look to modern Iraq to observe how divided the Islamic world truly is. The Sunni/Shiite clash would be an excellent candidate for the iron vs. the clay.So now, what do we do with the seven heads of Revelation 17? Is there a Biblical answer for who these heads are? There have been all sorts of wild speculations over the years about who they are. I maintain that the Bible will not give us a symbol that is to be interpreted as such without also giving us an explanation somewhere. So where the explanation for the heads being seven in number?Let’s go back to Daniel 7 and the four beasts:Lion = 1 headBear = 1 headLeopard = 4 headsNon-descript beast = 1 headLets’s see, 1+1+4+1 = 7 heads!And look at the beast of Revelation 13 – it has the body of a leopard, the feet of a bear, and the mouth of a lion. So this is a combination of the four beasts from Daniel 7. Therefore, seven heads would only make sense, because we have combined the seven heads of Daniel 7 into this one combination beast. Therefore, the final Antichrist Empire is going to be the previous ones combined. So then, who are the seven heads?From the lion, we getBabylonFrom the bear, we getPersiaFrom the leopard, we get the four divisions of the Greek Empire after Alexander’s death, which would be3. Egypt (Ptolemy)4. Syria or Assyria (Seleucus)5. Turkey/Byzantium/Constantinople (Lysimachus)6. Macedonia/Greece, and by extension, Rome (Cassander)And from the non-descript beast (Islam) we get the seventh head7. Islamic Caliphate/Ottoman EmpireRevelation tells that the seventh head is wounded unto death, but comes back again. We are seeing the resurgence of Islam on our front pages and on the 10:00 news right now. Europe is being overrun and Islam is already the fastest growing religion in the USA at this very moment. It’s coming, folks.Revelation 17 also tells us that the beast “belongs to the seven”, yet he “is an eighth king”. In what way? This is seen in his relationship to the ten horns. The ten horns represent the ten kingdoms that come out of the fourth beast in Daniel 7. These ten kings are contemporary and rule together. But as was seen from Daniel 7, when the AntiChrist (the “little horn”) begins to take control, he uproots three of the ten horns. He kills three of the ten kings, leaving seven for the remainder of the tribulation period. The AntiChrist is contemporary with these seven, making him an eighth. He is an eighth contemporary king ruling over the other seven kings who have submitted to his authority. Yet he is “of the seven”, for he is the seventh head of the chronologically ruling governments of world history. “Seven” refers to the heads, while “eight” refers to the horns.So we have used the Bible to identify the seven heads, of whom five had already come and gone into history at the time John wrote Revelation in 95 AD, one was currently in power at that time, and one was still to come.So here are the seven listed together:1. Babylon2. Medo-Persia3. Egypt (Ptolemy)4. Syria or Assyria (Seleucus)5. Turkey/Byzantium/Constantinople (Lysimachus)6. Macedonia/Greece, and by extension, Rome (Cassander)7. Islamic Caliphate/Ottoman EmpireAt the time John wrote Revelation, 1-5 listed above had indeed fallen to various powers, including Rome among others. The sixth who the angel said still "is" was Rome, and the seventh, the Islamic Empire was still to come.
 

arniem

New Member
Mar 17, 2008
138
0
0
71
A few thoughts: Babylon is the city on seven hills in Rev. 17 + 18Rome is the only city on seven hills (except Rio de Janeiro)The Club of Rome , since the 1960's has divided the world into 10 kingdoms , mostly based on race and culture.Somehow Rome always seems to have some involvement as well. We live in interesting times.
 

Literalist-Luke

New Member
Mar 18, 2008
57
0
0
58
(arniem;43685)
A few thoughts: Babylon is the city on seven hills in Rev. 17 + 18Rome is the only city on seven hills (except Rio de Janeiro)The Club of Rome , since the 1960's has divided the world into 10 kingdoms , mostly based on race and culture.Somehow Rome always seems to have some involvement as well. We live in interesting times.
That's fine if the Club of Rome divided the world into 10 regions. I could do that with Paint Shop Pro on my computer right now. It means nothing. The Club's 10 regions have never been implemented. When they are, we'll talk.Mecca is also known as a city on seven hills. And how do you explain the Islamic Empire's conquering Rome, but Rome's failure to conquer Persia?
 

Jerusalem Junkie

New Member
Jan 7, 2008
654
0
0
67
(Literalist-Luke;43683)
Keep saying it.
Gotcha........think I will let it go no one hears it but me...and what do I know?
rolleyes.gif
 

arniem

New Member
Mar 17, 2008
138
0
0
71
(Literalist-Luke;43687)
That's fine if the Club of Rome divided the world into 10 regions. I could do that with Paint Shop Pro on my computer right now. It means nothing. The Club's 10 regions have never been implemented. When they are, we'll talk.Mecca is also known as a city on seven hills. And how do you explain the Islamic Empire's conquering Rome, but Rome's failure to conquer Persia?
The Club of Rome is still very much in action. It's workings are not always made public and it is intended to be that way.Rome plays a part in the end times. Remember the kingdom of Rome was never destroyed , it decayed from within and fell apart. If the Kingdom of Rome is to be destroyed (as prophesied) it will have to exist in some measure again.
 

arniem

New Member
Mar 17, 2008
138
0
0
71
Literalist LukeI am not sure if posting half the bible and your long documents makes you feel religious or something but it would be much easier if you just used your own words to describe "your belief" , maybe a paragraph or two.If your position seems to have merit , we can then investigate further.I have 14 bibles and 600 books in my library, but if I posted them all here it does not make me correct.What I am trying to say Luke , is that your position may be buried somewhere in all your long posts , but is not readily visible.What seems readily visible is you accept no position but your own. The rest of us are wrong. This is dangerous thinking. No one knows exactly how the end times will play out. That includes you. That includes me.Arnie M
 

Christina

New Member
Apr 10, 2006
10,885
101
0
15
(arniem;43685)
A few thoughts: Babylon is the city on seven hills in Rev. 17 + 18Rome is the only city on seven hills (except Rio de Janeiro)The Club of Rome , since the 1960's has divided the world into 10 kingdoms , mostly based on race and culture.Somehow Rome always seems to have some involvement as well. We live in interesting times.
Babylon means confusion this is not always literal in the book of Revelation
 

seekerntruth

New Member
Mar 17, 2008
13
0
0
75
Literalist-Luke,You did an excellent job of explaining the division of Alexander's kingdom.Also, I understand why you believe the 7th head is Islamic..I agree Though, I find your theory on the 7 heads of the beast to be a bit questionable. I thought the heads represented Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo Perisa, Greece, five fallen kingdoms and kings.Rome, the sixth kingdom, referred to as "one is" during the writing of the Revelation.... Six heads accounted for, and one head left to explain...The 7th kingdom is the last head on the beast...And, on this last head are ten horns or kings..However, it sounds like you are saying that all 6 heads of the beast are future kingdoms along with the 7th head and its ten kings...?????snt