gadar perets
Well-Known Member
As long as they remain in Christ. Once they renounce him, there remains no more sacrifice for their sins and they will be eternally lost because of their unbelief.
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gadar perets
Well-Known Member
Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Hebrews 3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
Hebrews 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
Hebrews 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Heb 6:7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
Heb 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Hebrews 3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
Hebrews 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
Hebrews 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Heb 6:7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
Heb 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
gadar perets
Well-Known Member
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
You are speaking of the Sabbath. What other "key" commandments are you referring to? Are they the laws concerning meats?
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
Here again it seems you are referring to keeping the Sabbath "day." And then implying it is a willful sin if you keep every day alike (Romans 14:5).
Though Hebrews 4 refers to the Sabbath day, the Sabbath day is not what is being referred to as ultimately "entering into God's rest," but merely a shadow of the spiritual rest we have in Jesus as our High Priest. Seeing as the Jews kept the Sabbath day, and yet failed to fulfill entering into God's rest, it is a much deeper significance than physically resting one day a week, but spiritually trusting God every moment of every day, the true failure of the Jews and their disobedience. The conclusion of Hebrews 4 shows this rest in Jesus, as High Priest as at the throne of grace. If it was the Sabbath, Paul would have concluded much differently pointing to obedience to the 4th commandment. But that would have been strange seeing as we are no longer under the law if we are following the Spirit.
The way we understand Hebrews 4 is the difference between the letter and the Spirit.
The Sabbath was also the sign of the Old Covenant. Exodus 31:13. The New Covenant has a new sign, based on the blood of Jesus Christ - the Cup of the New Testament. 1 Corinthians 11:25. And this covenant has new commandments - 1 John 3:23 which are by far better and deeper than the Ten Commandments, and will save you. By keeping them, you do not break any of the former commandments, because Jesus IS the 4th commandment. Matthew 11:29 "Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. (The commandment only gave rest to the body).
If you don't understand this aspect of the New Covenant, God does not judge it against you as you follow according to the knowledge you have, and that it is to honor God that you follow the law. There is nothing wrong with the law, as it was holy. But understanding our New Covenant would be better.
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Jun2u
Well-Known Member
The wages of sin is death. If Christ has NOT paid for the sins of an individual then he is doomed to go to hell, without a choice in the matter because he is accountable for his sins.
On the other hand, an individual elected to salvation before the foundation of the world, he too has no choice in the matter because God is the ONLY ONE who can save!
Jesus said: “Ye have NOT chosen me, but I have chosen you...” (John 15:16). Same idea as Romans 3.
If man has a free will as many believe, then he is the king maker and does NOT need God to save him!!!
To God Be The Glory
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
Are you assuming you are one of the chosen elect? How do you know that you actually are one of the elect and Jesus took away your sins? Are you sinless? Maybe He didn't choose you, and no matter what you do or how much faith you have you are going to hell. I suppose you will find out someday. Good luck!
One test to actually know if you are one of the chosen is if your prayers are answered. Are they all answered? Are any?
John 15:7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you.
1 John 3:19-2219 And by this we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him. 20 For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things. 21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight.
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And what makes your 'Messiah Yeshua' faith, different than Christianity?
Stranger
gadar perets
Well-Known Member
Yes, Sabbath is one. Others are the holy Feast Days that have NOT been fulfilled, the dietary laws, and any other command found in Torah that can still be obeyed like not destroying one's beard, not printing marks on the body, wearing tzit tziyot, not committing bestiality, etc.
gadar perets
Well-Known Member
No. I posted those verses referring to someone who renounces Yeshua.
The original account from which Hebrews 4:1-11 is taken is found in Numbers 14:22-24, 28-30, and Deuteronomy 1:30-40. In both passages it was the "land" (of Canaan) that was being withheld because of unbelief. The children of Israel were on their wilderness journey to the "promised land," which was a type of the "rest" to come. Joshua brought them into that land or the typical "rest" (Joshua 1:13-15; 21:44; 22:4), yet the Almighty again spoke through David concerning this greater rest. In Psalm 95:11, David uses the phrase "my rest" instead of "the land" as in the original promise. Why? Because "the land" was only a type of the future rest to come when true believers enter into the true promised land, the "heavenly country" that the patriarchs of old saw from afar (Hebrews 11:13-16).
We are currently on our wilderness journey as well. We are heading for the heavenly country promised us. Just as the Israelites continued keeping the Sabbath rest throughout their wilderness journey, so, too, must we continue to keep the Sabbath rest. In fact, the Israelites continued to keep the Sabbath even after entering the typical promised land of Canaan. We, too, will continue in the Sabbath rest as prophesied in Isaiah 66:22-23 even after the new heaven and new earth come.
If the common Christian view of Hebrews 4:10 is correct, that the Sabbath is abolished because we have entered the true rest, then, to be consistent, it must also be true that all work is abolished since we have ceased from our own works. In other words, if the physical rest is done away with, then the physical labor should also be done away with. However, since believers continue to do physical labors like farming, construction work, etc., they should also continue to rest from such labor as it is written. Additionally, the Sabbath rest is commanded for the sake of animals as well. Is it now permissible for farmers to work their animals seven days a week? Do animals somehow enter into the true rest as well?
Hebrews 4:11 talks about laboring to enter into that rest. It is not something we automatically receive upon accepting Yeshua as our Savior except by faith. That rest will become a reality upon our resurrection unto eternal life. That is why we see the saints of Revelation 14:12,13 laboring right up until death. It is only after death that the ultimate rest can literally begin. Note, also, that those saints "keep the commandments of God" (KJV), among which is the Sabbath.
We certainly can find rest for our souls in Messiah (Matthew 11:28,29), but he does not give our bodies rest, nor does he give animals rest. That kind of rest is only available through the Sabbath rest. Jeremiah 6:16 reads, "Thus saith YHWH, 'Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls.' But they said, 'We will not walk therein.' " The "old paths" and the "good way" that provides a "rest for the soul" includes the keeping of YHWH's Sabbaths. Notice the similar wording found in Isaiah 58:12,13. The rest we have in Yeshua is only a foretaste of the rest to come at his second coming when we will be dwelling in the presence of the Father and the Son in the glorious "heavenly country".
Deuteronomy 5:15 reads, "And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that YHWH thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore YHWH thy God commanded thee to keep the Sabbath day." Notice the keeping of the Sabbath rest followed the Israelite redemption from slavery and bondage. How much more should we keep the Sabbath with joy overflowing after our greater redemption from sin and death? Why? Because every time we keep the Sabbath holy we remember and proclaim who it is that provided this great deliverance for us (Deuteronomy 5:15); we remember and proclaim who it is that sanctifies us (Exodus 31:13); we remember and proclaim who it is that created us and all things (Exodus 20:11); and we delight in both the Sabbath and YHWH Himself, and honor YHWH by doing His will and good pleasure (Isaiah 58:13,14). The Sabbath is truly holy, sanctified, blessed, delightful, and honorable.
Most people who reject the Sabbath and Law saying they are fulfilled in Messiah and therefore abolished will readily admit that they are not free to steal, dishonor parents, commit adultery, covet, etc. They will endeavor to keep from transgressing the other nine commandments, yet they refuse to keep the fourth commandment. Most Sabbath opponents will not: commit bestiality; get tattooed; have relations with close relatives; use unjust weights and measures; charge what they consider usury; etc. So when they say they are "free from the law", or "not under the law", etc., they are really trying to justify their supposed freedom from Sabbath-keeping in a most inconsistent manner. The reality is, we must obey our Heavenly Father's commandments if they are among the laws written on our hearts as part of the New Covenant (Hebrews 8:8-10).
The Sabbath was not a sign "of the Old Covenant". It was a sign IN the Old Covenant that YHWH sanctifies us. He still sanctifies us in the New Covenant and therefore, the Sabbath remains a sign of who it is that sanctifies us. Yes, there are new commandments that are part of the New Covenant. However, many OC commandments have been carried over into the NC including the two greatest commandments and the Ten Commandments. 1 John 3:23 gives us a new command to believe on Yeshua, but to "love one another" is an OC command (love thy neighbor). We cannot possibly love one another if we cause our neighbor to work on the Sabbath instead of allowing him/her to rest like our Creator did.
I understand your view. I disagree with it. It causes millions of Christians to trample on what YHWH has made holy and it causes them to lose out on the blessing that YHWH has put upon ONLY that one day of the week. All other days are common work days, but the Sabbath is blessed and holy. You need to rethink your position and obey your Creator.
gadar perets
Well-Known Member
Yeshua taught STRICT monotheism in which his Father (Almighty YHWH) is the ONLY true God (John 17:3). He taught, and showed by example, obedience to all of YHWH's commandments that applied to him including the Sabbath, Feast Days, and dietary laws. Yeshua did not teach OSAS. ...
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
I agree Christians do not abide by some of these laws, but why are you accusing Christians of bestiality? I neither am cruel to animals, nor have sex with them. That seems a bit outrageous.
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
Why wasn't the Sabbath day given to man before Moses? Also, I'm curious what religion you are if not Messianic nor Christian?
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
Sorry to chop up your post like this, but it is better for me to handle to have smaller posts.
Here again, you are accusing Christians of heinous acts that a Christian does not do. Bearing false witness is one of the Ten Commandments you say you keep. As for the "other" 9 commandments, it is not necessary to point those out to a Christian if they love their neighbor. There are two New Testament commandments that Jesus consistently commanded and reviewed. He even used the Ten Commandments as examples in showing how His commandments were stronger and reached deeper into the soul. For instance:
Matthew 5: “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment.
1 John 3:23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.
Christians are not under the Ten Commandments as a covenant. The Ten Commandments were weak. Holy, but weak. Why because they did nothing to take away sin, only point out sin to those in the flesh.
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
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I agree with your second paragraph.
Your first paragraph is not right and we've been through this before.
I even listed which covenants did not require a two-way agreement and/or performance.
I had suggested that you study the 8 most important covenants a little.
You didn't do this and are still making incorrect statements.
You really should....
Now this is strange. The warnings you present in (Hebrews) are to Jewish believers, Christians, who are suffering a form of persecution from the Jewish non-believers. They are tempted to go back to the Mosaic system, the Law and cease assembling with the Church. And Paul is warning them, don't go back. To go back is to have an evil heart of unbelief. To go back is to sin wilfully after receiving the knowledge of the Truth.
So who are you? One who is saved, having received Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, but turned back to the Law. Or are you one who has not received Christ as Lord and Saviour, and are attempting to draw believers back under the Law?
Stranger
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
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