Eternal Security

1stCenturyLady said:

One cannot love this way without the Holy Spirit.

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I agree, but with the Holy Spirit we CAN obey.

The Ten Commandments did not come with the Spirit, but the flesh. It exposed the flesh, and the sin found there. But we are not in the flesh but in the Spirit if we have the Spirit of God, and those who do not have the Spirit of Christ do not belong to Him. So you answer the question yourself.

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Answer what question?

Only a spiritual person can be subject to the law. The carnally minded person who lives in the flesh cannot be subject to the law (Romans 8:7).

Stranger said:

And I am trying to help you understand you are involved in an impossible task. The Law just finds you guilty. You can't keep it. So quit trying to make other people keep it.

Stranger

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Yeshua kept it. He is my example. If I cannot live up to that example and occasionally break the law, that is not grounds to cease from trying to obey the commandments. Just confess, repent and strive to avoid sin in the future. You are telling me that you won't even try to keep the commandments because you think it is impossible. That is foolishness.

Stranger said:

Ok, you are a sinner. Now, you answer. Do you sin?

Stranger

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Obviously the answer is I commit unintentional trespasses, as we all do. What a true Christian, and I hope that includes you, does not commit are willful sins. So, no, I do not commit willful sins, but do commit trespasses.

What about you? Do you need prayer to overcome willful sin? I can send you my testimony if you think you need it.

gadar perets said:

Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

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Yes, that verse is about anyone who has not yet trusted in Jesus and made Him their Savior. A Christian is no longer carnal.

But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

Romans 7 is about those who knew the law and were under the law, like when Paul was a Pharisee - before Christ. The law was holy, but sin was present in the carnal flesh, thus making it impossible to be righteous. But now, with Christ, the righteous requirements of the holy law are fulfilled just by walking in the Spirit.

Those who still have a problem with their flesh and want to commit willful sins do not have the Spirit of Christ in them. They are not saved.

Enoch111 said:

6. If any saint persists in sin after that, THERE IS A SIN UNTO DEATH. That is not the loss of eternal life but premature death. And this warning should be sufficient for all the saints.

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Ridiculous. They do not have eternal life.

gadar perets said:

I did NOT say 2 John 1:4 is talking about the Ten Commandments. I cited that verse to show you that John believed there were other commandments to obey than just the two in 1 John 3:23. We are to obey the command to walk in the truth. Yes, Yeshua is the truth, but thee are other truths besides Yeshua.

Psalm 119:142 Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.
Psalm 119:151 Thou art near, O YHWH; and all thy commandments are truth.​

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The law had its purpose, but was only meant to be temporary to bring us to Christ. Once we have Christ, He gives us His Spirit to walk in. Its a whole new method of righteousness, that is more complete.

Galatians 3:22-24
22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would AFTERWARD be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

gadar perets said:

I agree, but with the Holy Spirit we CAN obey.

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Yes, we obey the leading of the Spirit. We are not to quench the Spirit, and willfully sin. Hebrews 10:26-31 shows us how perilous that can be, even bringing us again to perdition.

gadar perets said:

Yeshua kept it. He is my example. If I cannot live up to that example and occasionally break the law, that is not grounds to cease from trying to obey the commandments. Just confess, repent and strive to avoid sin in the future. You are telling me that you won't even try to keep the commandments because you think it is impossible. That is foolishness.

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I don't try and keep the Law because I am not under the Law. If you can't keep the Law what good is it doing you? The Law doesn't allow for occasional breaking. Your effort to keep the law is an effort to establish your righteousness, not the righteousness of God.

Stranger

1stCenturyLady said:

Obviously the answer is I commit unintentional trespasses, as we all do. What a true Christian, and I hope that includes you, does not commit are willful sins. So, no, I do not commit willful sins, but do commit trespasses.

What about you? Do you need prayer to overcome willful sin? I can send you my testimony if you think you need it.

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The obvious answer is that your a sinner like everyone else. Yes, I am a sinner like everyone else also. I have never said otherwise.

So you see, that is not a 'Reformational lie' as you say. As to your only committing unintentional trespasses and not wilful sins, ok, if you say so. But I think the 10th commandment would nail you on that. "Thou shalt not covet". Did you want to?

Because your a sinner like everyone else you are in need of the grace of God like everyone else.

You're free to give your testimony any time in the testimony section of the forum.

Stranger

Nancy said:

I NEVER said it is God's will that we sin!!! But, if (when) we do: 1 John 2:1 "My dear children, I am writing this to you so that you will not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate who pleads our case before the Father. He is Jesus Christ, the one who is truly righteous."
I suppose I could re-word and say one who "keeps on sinning" as a way of life. We are not sinless but we will sin less the more we trust in His finished work. God HATES sin and I think you know that I understand this.
God is the same yesterday, today and forever. The New Covenant began at Jesus death, not His birth. If you want to skew my words, do it to your own enjoyment as I will not argue with anybody on here. There is enough strife, division and lack of true fellowship love on this site.
Have a blessed day

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Hi Nancy, I just saw this.
The above misunderstanding is exactly what I've been writing to @Stranger about. I KNOW that you two do not promote sin...but the words you both use make it SEEM as if you do.

I just wish we could use correct language so that everyone understands God demands obedience of His laws, commandments, whatever you wish to call it...without any confusion for those reading along.

Romans 12:1-2
1Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. 2And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

GodsGrace said:

Hi Nancy, I just saw this.
The above misunderstanding is exactly what I've been writing to @Stranger about. I KNOW that you two do not promote sin...but the words you both use make it SEEM as if you do.

I just wish we could use correct language so that everyone understands God demands obedience of His laws, commandments, whatever you wish to call it...without any confusion for those reading along.

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Yes God demands obedience to the Law. But by your terminology, you are placing the believer under the Mosaic Law. That is the sound of the voice of God with you and I under Law. "Demands Obedience".

Under Grace the sound of the voice of God is different. (Rom. 6:1-2) "...Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?"

(Rom. 6:11-13) "...reckon ye also your selves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ...Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof...Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God...and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God."

And even in the verses you gave in (Rom. 12:1-2) Paul does not 'Demand Obedience'. He says, "I beseech you brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice...which is your reasonable service." In other words, Paul does not say obey the Law now that you have the Spirit of God. He says because God has done this for you then it is your reasonable service to yield your body, present your body as a living sacrifice to Him. "

Stranger

1stCenturyLady said:

LAW had not been abolished, but which law do you think will justify you? The Ten Commandments or the Law of Liberty?

John 15:10
10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

Two different sets of commandments, but don't oppose one another.

Jesus kept the Ten Commandments as He lived under the law. But He preached new laws that would come into effect after He died. "To believe on Him, and to love one another."

Hebrews 9:15-17 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

16 For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives.

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You see two sets of commandments?
What are they?
What are the Father's commands?
What are Jesus' commands?

Jesus kept the Father's commandments as we're also to keep them; the most important one Jesus kept was His going to the cross...
Mathew 16:21-24 His time had come to enter Jerusalem and fact His destiny.

The New Covenant became effective at Jesus' death...right.
But the law did not change...
The way we could keep it changed with the coming of the Holy Spirit.
John 16:7

And what is the eternal inheritance?
Heaven.
Only after the cross did heaven's gates open...
Mathew 27:51 Before that the faithful were waiting in Abraham's Bossom...Luke 16:19...

God does not change His mind...He is the same today, yesterday and tomorrow.

1stCenturyLady said:

Yes, that verse is about anyone who has not yet trusted in Jesus and made Him their Savior. A Christian is no longer carnal.

But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

Romans 7 is about those who knew the law and were under the law, like when Paul was a Pharisee - before Christ. The law was holy, but sin was present in the carnal flesh, thus making it impossible to be righteous. But now, with Christ, the righteous requirements of the holy law are fulfilled just by walking in the Spirit.

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I quoted Romans 7:14 to show the law is spiritual. You reply, "The law was holy". I reply, the law IS holy. It has not lost its holy, spiritual nature. Yes, carnal man could not keep it, but the spiritually minded man can.

Those who still have a problem with their flesh and want to commit willful sins do not have the Spirit of Christ in them. They are not saved.

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If you are referring to someone who never received Yeshua, then I agree. However, a person who has received Yeshua as well as the indwelling Holy Spirit still has a battle to fight against the flesh. Some believers occasionally lose a battle, but they are still saved and still have the Holy Spirit. They are not sinning willfully, but because they are weak in the flesh. They know a certain thing is wrong, but they yield to the pull of the flesh. Others have been deceived into thinking something is not a sin and feel free to do it such as working on the Sabbath or eating swine's flesh. Both are still forbidden under the New Covenant. The Spirit tries to show them the truth about this, but they have been so brainwashed by their leaders into thinking those commands have been abolished that they turn a deaf ear to what the Spirit is saying. Year after year they are told that if they obey those commands they are fallen from grace, legalistic, seeking their own righteousness, etc. The Spirit does not give up, but keeps sending the truth to these deceived brethren until they finally yield to the truth, obey it and realize the victory over sin in that area of their lives. Satan wants us to sin by breaking YHWH's laws and the Spirit wants us not sin by keeping YHWH's laws.

1stCenturyLady said:

The law had its purpose, but was only meant to be temporary to bring us to Christ. Once we have Christ, He gives us His Spirit to walk in. Its a whole new method of righteousness, that is more complete.

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Bringing us to Messiah was one function of the law. Another is to point out sin. The latter function still remains. Believers are clothed with Yeshua's righteousness through faith and are to then do righteous acts, including obeying YHWH's laws.

Galatians 3:22-24
22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would AFTERWARD be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

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Again I direct you back to post #573. Yeshua is driving us back to obedience to the law.

BobRyan said:

True. Matthew 7 "By their fruits you shall know them" -- where Christ said "bad fruit does not come from a good tree".

There is a "version" of OSAS (not all versions do this) that claims that loads of bad fruit come from a supposedly good tree -- all the way to the person's death and then no matter the statement of Christ to the contrary - that person is deemed to be a "good tree" no matter the fruit of it.

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Yes. And I'm sure this gets new Christians very confused and is not helpful to their walk with God.

James 1:22
But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves. NASB

The Barean Study Bible says:
James 1:21-22
Hearing and Doing
…21Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and every expression of evil, and humbly receive the word planted in you, which can save your souls. 22Bedoers of the word, and not hearers only. Otherwise, you are deceiving yourselves.

Stranger said:

I don't try and keep the Law because I am not under the Law. If you can't keep the Law what good is it doing you? The Law doesn't allow for occasional breaking. Your effort to keep the law is an effort to establish your righteousness, not the righteousness of God.

Stranger

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The righteousness of God is through faith (Romans 3:22). Faith establishes the Law (Romans 3:31). Obedience to the Law is a fruit of our salvation and justification, not the means to them.

Stranger said:

I don't mind preachy. But just consider. What is the difference? Either way, you and I are sinners. That is before and after becoming a Christian. Either way, we need the grace of God always. You can say you want to obey, yet you don't always. I say we need to walk in the Spirit, yet we still sin and don't obey always. Either way, it is all about grace. Not obedience to the law.

Stranger

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There we go again!

It's ALL ABOUT obedience to the law.
Do you believe it's a good idea to proclaim that it's not about obedience to the law?

Galatians 5 speaks about the spirit and the flesh. We are no longer under a yoke of SLAVERY.....Jesus died to free us from the slavery to our sinful nature...but we are not to abuse our freedom...Paul warns repeatedly against this...he warns us that we are to live a life of obedience...why say anything else with our words??

Galatians 5:13-24
13For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.
14For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.”
15But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.
16But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.
17For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.
18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.
19Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
20idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
21envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
24Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

GodsGrace said:

Yes. And I'm sure this gets new Christians very confused and is not helpful to their walk with God.

James 1:22
But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves. NASB

The Barean Study Bible says:
James 1:21-22
Hearing and Doing
…21Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and every expression of evil, and humbly receive the word planted in you, which can save your souls. 22Bedoers of the word, and not hearers only. Otherwise, you are deceiving yourselves.

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True. I knew someone who at one time was a strong Christian -- then started cheating on his wife for about a year... then got caught and after some time he came back to Christ and to his wife. But then he had an even "bigger" problem because he believed in OSAS. And now he finds that no matter how sincere he is in coming back to Christ - it is not "different" than when he was saved before which leaves him doubting his current state of salvation. Not until he sees that 20 years from today he also will not backslide can he know that today he really is saved, (according to that version of OSAS). It is not helping him at all.

GodsGrace said:

Hi Nancy, I just saw this.
The above misunderstanding is exactly what I've been writing to @Stranger about. I KNOW that you two do not promote sin...but the words you both use make it SEEM as if you do.

I just wish we could use correct language so that everyone understands God demands obedience of His laws, commandments, whatever you wish to call it...without any confusion for those reading along.

Romans 12:1-2
1Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. 2And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

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I am not as brainy or well articulated as some on here, though I do try and I love to read...I guess my thoughts just fly way too fast and I get ahead of myself. I know you are correct in that as I have re-read several of my posts and found large chunks I forgot to put in there, or it's messy or nor in the right order of what I tried to say. I will try to word my self better.

1stCenturyLady said: ↑
LAW had not been abolished, but which law do you think will justify you? The Ten Commandments or the Law of Liberty?

John 15:10
10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

Two different sets of commandments

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Not according to Christ in Matthew 19

GodsGrace said:

You see two sets of commandments?
What are they?
What are the Father's commands?
What are Jesus' commands?

Jesus kept the Father's commandments as we're also to keep them; the most important one Jesus kept was His going to the cross...
Mathew 16:21-24 His time had come to enter Jerusalem and fact His destiny.

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Jesus said that He spoke nothing at all of "His" own but only what the Father speaks.

John 14
8 Philip *said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” 9 Jesus *said to him, “Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves.

Instead of John arguing that Christ's commandments should never be thought of as "God's Commandments" - John argues that they cannot be anything OTHER than the Word of the Father.