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1stCenturyLady

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“Witnesses” of Hebrews 12:1
(Communion of Saints)

1) Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament (Joseph H. Thayer, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Book House, 4th ed., 1977; orig. 1901, 392) defines it — as used in this verse — as follows: “One who is a spectator of anything, e.g. of a contest, Heb 12:1.”

[Strong’s word #3144; similar usages cited by Thayer: Lk 24:48; Acts 1:8; 1:22; 2:32; 3:15; 5:32; 10:39; 13:31; 26:16; 1 Pet 5:1 – the sense is indisputable in these other verses]

2) Word Studies in the New Testament (Marvin R. Vincent, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1980; orig. 1887; vol. 4, 536), another standard Protestant language source, comments on this verse as follows:

‘Witnesses’ does not mean spectators, but those who have borne witness to the truth, as those enumerated in chapter 11. Yet the idea of spectators is implied, and is really the principal idea. The writer’s picture is that of an arena in which the Christians whom he addresses are contending in a race, while the vast host of the heroes of faith who, after having borne witness to the truth, have entered into their heavenly rest, watches the contest from the encircling tiers of the arena, compassing and overhanging it like a cloud, filled with lively interest and sympathy, and lending heavenly aid.

3) Word Pictures in the New Testament (A. T. Robertson [Baptist], Nashville, Tennessee: Broadman Press, 1932, vol. 5, 432), comments:
‘Cloud of witnesses’ (nephos marturon . . . The metaphor refers to the great amphitheatre with the arena for the runners and the tiers upon tiers of seats rising up like a cloud. The martures here are not mere spectators (theatai), but testifiers (witnesses) who testify from their own experience (11:2,4-5, 33, 39) to God’s fulfilling promises as shown in chapter 11.
[Note that the notion of “spectators” is the primary metaphor — the arena — so that both meanings: that of spectators and witnesses in the sense of example are present. Neither can be ruled out]

4) Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, (ed. Gerhard Kittel & Gerhard Friedrich; tr. and abridged by Geoffrey W. Bromiley, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1985; 567), an impeccable and widely-used linguistic (non-Catholic) source, states: “In Heb. 12:1 the witnesses watching the race seem to be confessing witnesses (cf. 11:2), but this does not exclude the element of factual witness.”

So our four non-Catholic language references all confirm that the element of “spectatorship,” which lends itself to the Catholic notion of communion of saints, where saints in heaven are aware of, and observe events on earth, is present in Hebrews 12:1, and cannot be ruled out by any means, on the basis of a doctrinal bias.
http://theologyforums.com/index.php?threads/communion-of-saints.928/

We weren't talking about witnesses, but "race." The process.
 

Enoch111

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Are you saying that someone is saying that the body is emanating light, such as energy. I must have missed that post.
Yes, I already indicated that this is really what glorification is all about, but it looks like this thread simply wants to stay on sanctification. Some here think this is bizarre, since it does not fit their concept of glorification.

Did the body and clothing of Christ emanate light at His Transfiguration, at His appearance to Paul on the road to Damascus (who was blinded), at His appearance to John on the Lord's Day (who fell down as dead)? Scripture says "We shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is".

And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. (Mt 17:2)

And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them. (Mk 9:3)

And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering. (Lk 9:29)


When Christians are translated, they will also be transfigured.
 
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1stCenturyLady

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Yes, I already indicated that this is really what glorification is all about, but it looks like this thread simply wants to stay on sanctification. Some here think this is bizarre, since it does not fit their concept of glorification.

Did the body and clothing of Christ emanate light at His Transfiguration, at His appearance to Paul on the road to Damascus (who was blinded), at His appearance to John on the Lord's Day (who fell down as dead)? Scripture says "We shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is".

And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. (Mt 17:2)

And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them. (Mk 9:3)

And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering. (Lk 9:29)


When Christians are translated, they will also be transfigured.

Can you show me in scripture that glorification is only in the afterlife? And I'm not talking about being a literal light bulb. I never did.
 

Dcopymope

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Can you show me in scripture that glorification is only in the afterlife? And I'm not talking about being a literal light bulb. I never did.

According to the narrative given by John in Revelation, glorification will occur in THIS life. There is no such thing as an after life as far I'm concerned, there is only the one life you have now that gets transformed into immortality.
 
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1stCenturyLady

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According to the narrative given by John in Revelation, glorification will occur in THIS life. There is no such thing as an after life as far I'm concerned, there is only the one life you have now that gets transformed into immortality.

Okay, after you are dead.
 

Dcopymope

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Okay, after you are dead.

Well, who says you have to actually die to receive it? What about the believers who are still walking the earth? Paul says the dead in Christ rise first, then the living. There is only one life, and that life will be changed "in the twinkling of an eye".

(1 Thessalonians 4:13-18) "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. {14} For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. {15} For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. {16} For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: {17} Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. {18} Wherefore comfort one another with these words."
 

1stCenturyLady

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Well, who says you have to actually die to receive it? What about the believers who are still walking the earth? Paul says the dead in Christ rise first, then the living. There is only one life, and that life will be changed "in the twinkling of an eye".

Yes, that is true. But what I want to know is does scripture say we are being glorified NOW while we are still living. I'm not talking about our bodies, but our souls. You are talking as if it is all in the future when Christ comes. If we are going from glory to glory, then part of glory is now.
 

Dcopymope

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Yes, that is true. But what I want to know is does scripture say we are being glorified NOW while we are still living. I'm not talking about our bodies, but our souls. You are talking as if it is all in the future when Christ comes. If we are going from glory to glory, then part of glory is now.

I'm not really sure about that, unless one were to define sanctification as glorification of the soul, then I personally can't really claim anything "glorious" about you in particular. Its supposed to be all about giving glory to God anyway.
 
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Nancy

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The question then becomes what does it mean to believe? It certainly doesn't mean that you know Jesus is the Son of God - even the demons know that much and tremble. So you have to ask yourself what did Jesus come to do? He was manifest to take away our sin, and in him there is no sin. And what does that mean? It means the first step has to do with our sin, and realizing we can not be holy or righteous on our own. We must turn to Christ and ask Him to save us from ourselves. He does that through the baptism of the Holy Spirit, who replaces our old nature and makes us dead to sin, removing us out of the flesh and into the Spirit.

What it does not mean is that Jesus covers our sin while we keep sinning. No. How can you keep sinning when you are dead to sin? Is the Spirit that weak? Many false teachers have said this because they cannot relate to being filled with the Spirit, so their natural man tries to justify their own sin they have no power over, because the Spirit isn't in them. Then they become the blind leading the blind. They are lukewarm, neither hot, on fire for God; nor cold and refreshing.

Good post @1stCenturyLady !, but...lol, I will take issue with one thing you said: "What it does not mean is that Jesus covers our sin while we keep sinning."

Jesus never covered our sins. Jesus took them away. Once. for . all. He remembers our sin no more ...far as the East is from the west! Forgets them! WOW! Now if THAT ain't Good News! lol The O.C. had covering...for a year only...with the blood of animals, which could never take away sins forever...how many sins did you commit when Jesus died on the cross?? It's okay, I know...none of course, lol. When He died He died for every single sinner that lived in the past, present and future. Which means all people; past, present and future. He paid it all and He isn't going to do it again, and again,over and over like the OC sacrifices. Once for all. And it worked! Let us rest in him.
Blessings!
-nancy
 
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1stCenturyLady

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Good post @1stCenturyLady !, but...lol, I will take issue with one thing you said: "What it does not mean is that Jesus covers our sin while we keep sinning."

Jesus never covered our sins. Jesus took them away. Once. for . all. He remembers our sin no more ...far as the East is from the west! Forgets them! WOW! Now if THAT ain't Good News! lol The O.C. had covering...for a year only...with the blood of animals, which could never take away sins forever...how many sins did you commit when Jesus died on the cross?? It's okay, I know...none of course, lol. When He died He died for every single sinner that lived in the past, present and future. Which means all people; past, present and future. He paid it all and He isn't going to do it again, and again,over and over like the OC sacrifices. Once for all. And it worked! Let us rest in him.
Blessings!
-nancy

Exactly! Only the blood of bulls and goats "covered" sins. Jesus took our sins away, which is why I hate it when I hear Christians use the term "covers" sin in relation to what Jesus accomplished. But I would go further and say He took away our sin nature that spews out sin non stop. That is why we are dead to sin, and are no longer in the flesh, but in the Spirit.
 

1stCenturyLady

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I'm not really sure about that, unless one were to define sanctification as glorification of the soul, then I personally can't really claim anything "glorious" about you in particular. Its supposed to be all about giving glory to God anyway.

Thats just it. Is the process we call sanctification actually glorification?
 

Nancy

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Exactly! Only the blood of bulls and goats "covered" sins. Jesus took our sins away, which is why I hate it when I hear Christians use the term "covers" sin in relation to what Jesus accomplished. But I would go further and say He took away our sin nature that spews out sin non stop. That is why we are dead to sin, and are no longer in the flesh, but in the Spirit.

Anen sister!! Agreed.
 

Dcopymope

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Thats just it. Is the process we call sanctification actually glorification?

If that's what you want to call it, sure, I guess. You can call it other things as well, like purification, or even sanitation for that matter. My understanding of it is a little more overarching than the typical definition. To me, the true "glorification" occurs when heaven and earth passes away and the new one is established, or when God hits the reset button. When John and Paul quotes Isaiah and Jeremiah concerning our sins being remembered no more and this current world no longer coming into remembrance, the two go hand and hand.

Neither one of them ever said anything about our sins no longer being remembered because of the "glorified" bodies, or our "sanctification". I call it "the remembrance", and the "glorification" as most people typically understand it has nothing to do with it as far as I'm concerned. Its all about Jesus putting away sin on the cross, and the reset could never happen without it. If God really wanted to, he could have made Adam and Eve with a "glorified", immortal body like the angels, but God is no fool. He knew exactly what he was doing because he knew that the temptation was bound to happen just like it already did in heaven with Satan, tree or no tree.

(Revelation 21:3-4) "And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. {4} And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

(Isaiah 65:17) "¶ For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind."

(Hebrews 10:14-17) "For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. {15} Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, {16} This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; {17} And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more."

(Jeremiah 31:33-34) "But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. {34} And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."
 
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1stCenturyLady

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If that's what you want to call it, sure, I guess. You can call it other things as well, like purification, or even sanitation for that matter. My understanding of it is a little more overarching than the typical definition. To me, the true "glorification" occurs when heaven and earth passes away and the new one is established, or when God hits the reset button. When John and Paul quotes Isaiah and Jeremiah concerning our sins being remembered no more and this current world no longer coming into remembrance, the two go hand and hand.

Neither one of them ever said anything about our sins no longer being remembered because of the "glorified" bodies, or our "sanctification". I call it "the remembrance", and the "glorification" as most people typically understand it has nothing to do with it as far as I'm concerned. Its all about Jesus putting away sin on the cross, and the reset could never happen without it. If God really wanted to, he could have made Adam and Eve with a "glorified", immortal body like the angels, but God is no fool. He knew exactly what he was doing because he knew that the temptation was bound to happen just like it already did in heaven with Satan, tree or no tree.

Thanks. Actually, I see justification as the point where our sins are remembered no more. No matter what awful things we did in our life before Christ, Jesus takes the sin nature that produced those sins and killed it on the cross with Him, resurrecting a new nature in Christ. What I see at that moment is sanctification. We were cleansed for the purpose of good works with a nature that wants to do them. Therefore, back to back justification cleanses, and we are then sanctified and set apart. Some say that sanctification is not finished, but a process for the rest of our life. But that is what I'm calling glorification - taking on the godly attributes of Christ. (Not that we are gods, as some claim). I like these verses. The first one has sanctification as "foreknew" or "predestinated."

Romans 8:
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

The next one shows the stages of glorification:

2 Peter 1:
5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
 
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justbyfaith

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What it does not mean is that Jesus covers our sin while we keep sinning.

What do you make of Romans 4:7-8?

Yes, that is true. But what I want to know is does scripture say we are being glorified NOW while we are still living. I'm not talking about our bodies, but our souls. You are talking as if it is all in the future when Christ comes. If we are going from glory to glory, then part of glory is now.

See 1 Peter 1:22.
 

justbyfaith

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The adoption, the redemption of the body (Romans 8:23, Hebrews 9:13-14) is realized and past tense for the believer who is sanctified (Galatians 4:5-7, 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, Hebrews 10:14; Ephesians 5:30-32 w/ 1 John 3:5; Philippians 3:21 w/ 1 John 4:1-3).

God is light and in Him there is no darkness at all (1 John 1:5). There is no sin in Christ (1 John 3:5).

The Son of God has come to give us an understanding, that we may know Him that is true; and we are in Him that is true, even in His Son Jesus Christ (1 John 5:20).
 

justbyfaith

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Our sin is ever before us (Psalms 51:3).

Therefore forgiveness of sins would have to refer to the future as well as the past and present; for I was not even born when Jesus died on the Cross; and therefore all of my sins were still in the future when that event took place.

It is in my perpetual understanding (and in admitting) that I am a sinner by nature that I am forgiven (and cleansed) of my nature of sin (1 John 1:9).
 
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justbyfaith

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spirit (Titus 3:3-7) soul (1 Peter 1:22) and body (Romans 8:23 w/ Galatians 4:5-7; Hebrews 9:13-14) are sanctified wholly (1 Thessalonians 5:23-24) and thus perfected (Hebrews 10:14) when a person receives that second benefit (2 Corinthians 1:15).
 

justbyfaith

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So I am a sinner by nature but dead to the power of sin; because I have been pickled by the vinegar of the Holy Ghost so that the nature of the Holy Ghost is in me through and through; as a cucumber is changed into a pickle.

My sin nature is in that I am a cucumber; but the cucumber nature is now changed by being immersed in (Holy Ghost) vinegar so that the nature of the (Holy Ghost) vinegar is in me though and through. I am now a pickle and am a cucumber no more.

Outwardly, I still look like a cucumber; but if you smell, taste, and eat what I have become, you will say, that is not a cucumber but a pickle. I am still a cucumber in one sense, that has been changed in its nature so that it smells and tastes different. But in another sense I am a cucumber no more; I am a pickle. I have the new nature of the (Holy Ghost) vinegar that has transformed me so that I do not taste, act, or smell like a cucumber any more but like a pickle, and only a pickle. I can never go back to being a cucumber; my nature is permanently changed. I am no longer a child of wrath by nature (Ephesians 2:3); I am a son of disobedience no more (Ephesians 2:2).
 
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