So by your use of an old covenant quote, do you believe that Jesus covers our sin while we keep sinning?
Ask yourself how in the Old Testament sins were covered.
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So by your use of an old covenant quote, do you believe that Jesus covers our sin while we keep sinning?
Ask yourself how in the Old Testament sins were covered.
Paul the apostle turns it into a New Testament quote.
When the born again believer sins, the Lord doesn't see that sin but He sees the blood and righteousness of Jesus Christ which covers him.
Now I am not saying that if someone is born again, they will not have as their attitude a love of righteousness and hatred of sin. I think that this is part of the definition of what a born again Christian is (that we have a love for righteousness and a hatred of sin).
However, when it comes to human weakness, and the fact that the element of sin dwells within every one of us, it is necessarily true that the blood of Jesus covers our sin(s).
This being qualified by the fact that as born again believers, we desire not to sin; and if we should ever begin to desire sin so that it becomes a habitual practice in our lives, we ought to question as to whether we are truly born again of the Holy Spirit (2 Corinthians 13:5).
I was afraid you were going to say that. Do you mind telling me what denomination teaches you this? Possibly from the Reformation??? Or not?
Have you never seen that Light in a person? I most certainly have. It is not normally to be seen with the natural eye, but with the "eyes to see" about which Jesus spoke. If you're looking for a physical light in the physical darkness, instead of the Light of God shining from or in a person as that person walks in the Spirit, I believe that you are missing something very important.
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I think you should take into account the whole of what I said and not just single out the thing that you quoted.
The movement from which I hail does not identify itself as a denomination.
Not the same thing at all. Please note:
PHILIPPIANS 3
20 For our conversation [commonwealth or citizenship] is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
1 JOHN 3
1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
Peter said of Paul's writings that there are some things hard to understand. It is true, but not impossible. Romans especially has been twisted to say things Paul did not mean, because people take part of what he said and stop. They do not continue to the conclusion. Romans 3 and 4 are like that, even 5. You have more studying to do, and further to read. So many people are using passages out of context from Romans 3-5 and creating false doctrines. The biggest one is that the blood of Jesus merely covers our sins while we keep on sinning as it is no longer imputed to us. He didn't write that for people to twist, but to lead to chapter 7:8-9 "For apart from the law sin was dead. 9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died." and 8 of living APART from the law by a new method - the Spirit. He means in Romans 4 that blessed is the man that sin is not imputed. And how is that - by not being under the law that imputes sin. But how are we not under the law? By receiving the Spirit - the new method of fulfilling the righteousness of the law through a new nature.
If we keep on sinning, why did Paul say in chapter 6, the chapter they skip over, that we are DEAD TO SIN? Why also did he clarify that the wages of sin is death.
The blood of Jesus is far more powerful than they give it credit for. Being born again is receiving a brand new nature that doesn't sin. These people cannot understand John at all. They don't relate to 1 John 3:9, and try to twist it as well. But trying to understand this from a carnal mind is impossible. That is why the baptism of the Holy Spirit is imperative. Many in church do not have the Spirit that gives them the power to not sin, so they cannot understand scripture that only the Spirit gives the proper insight to. Otherwise, it is foolishness to them.
Do yourself a favor and read Paul's whole teaching regarding the law through to its conclusion about the Spirit which doesn't appear until chapter 8. So read chapters 1 through 8 in one sitting, but first clear your mind of all doctrines you've learned, and read it as if it was the first time, slowly.
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Why would I or should I presume that this hunk of flesh and bone is more than a vessel that contains both the old man and the new man or that it is this flesh and bone that will be refurbished? We are to kill the "old man" but that does not mean commit suicide by overdosing on some kind of pills, does it? Rather, does it not speak of killing our beasts... all of them?
"Wisdom hath builded her house, she hath hewn out her seven pillars:
She hath killed her beasts; she hath mingled her wine; she hath also furnished her table." Prov 9:1-2
If we endure with Him to the end, we shall most certainly be like Him, but what is that?
bbyrd009
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ha, mostly just messing with you lol.
Christ died for the sins of the world, the whole world, right.
And God did not require any blood anyway i guess, oops!
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You don't need to presume anything. You have received the Word of God. Just BELIEVE IT. God said it. That settles it.
Adam brought sin, death, decay, and mortality to the human race.
Christ brings righteousness, eternal life, incorruptiblity, and immortality to His saints.
@1stCenturyLady,
Your sin is ever before you (1 John 1:8, Romans 3:23, Psalms 51:3).
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
For all have sinned, and come short (present tense) of the glory of God.
For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.
Your sin is ever before you (1 John 1:8, Romans 3:23, Psalms 51:3).
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
For all have sinned, and come short (present tense) of the glory of God.
For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.
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Oh my, where do I start! Let me ask you something. You do realize there is a life BEFORE Christ, and a drastic change AFTER Christ don't you? You don't seem to know that for some reason, especially when you believe a twisted version of Paul's words that we keep sinning after Christ, but it is just not imputed to us. WRONG! Or is it you've never experienced the baptism of the Holy Spirit. After that, you'll know the difference.
First of all 1 John 1:8 is NOT about a Christian, but someone who has never repented, thus the next verse for context - "but if you confess your sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." Now after you have been cleansed of sin, are you still a sinner? Or does acknowledging you have been cleansed of all sin make you a liar, as you believe? You really don't see any difference between before and after Christ, except that you are forgiven? You've been deceived.
Romans 3:23 is Paul's version of 1 John 1:8. Since Adam, all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, so to say you have never done anything to repent of and have never sinned is a lie. And again, these are not Christians, but BEFORE repentance. They had the LAW, but not Christ.
Psalms 51:3 is the best example of the human condition BEFORE Christ.
Do you have any idea how ridiculous your doctrine is? It is a slap in the face to Christ and the power of His blood. You have a lot to learn.
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In 1 John 1:8, who is the author of that verse? An unbeliever before he came to Christ? What does the author mean by "we"? Unbelievers?
In Romans 3:23, in what tense do all come short of the glory of God? Only past tense? or is it saying that all come short of the glory of God in the present moment (present tense)?
In Psalms 51:3, If you were to pray this prayer before coming to Christ ("my sin is ever before me"), then what does it mean that your sin was ever before you? If it ceased to be before you the moment you became a Christian, does it not mean that your sin was not ever before you in the first place? Because the words ever before me indicate that the sin is perpetually in front of the person praying the prayer.
Do you claim to be without sin? If you do, then between the two of us, I am not the one who is deceived (1 John 1:8).
Also, if you think that I have said that being in Christ doesn't produce a change in character and nature, then you haven't read any of my posts.
The next time you sin, I pray that you will have the guts to pray the prayer of penitence found in Psalms 51; which includes Psalms 51:3.
In Romans 3:23, in what tense do all come short of the glory of God? Only past tense? or is it saying that all come short of the glory of God in the present moment (present tense)?
In Psalms 51:3, If you were to pray this prayer before coming to Christ ("my sin is ever before me"), then what does it mean that your sin was ever before you? If it ceased to be before you the moment you became a Christian, does it not mean that your sin was not ever before you in the first place? Because the words ever before me indicate that the sin is perpetually in front of the person praying the prayer.
Do you claim to be without sin? If you do, then between the two of us, I am not the one who is deceived (1 John 1:8).
Also, if you think that I have said that being in Christ doesn't produce a change in character and nature, then you haven't read any of my posts.
The next time you sin, I pray that you will have the guts to pray the prayer of penitence found in Psalms 51; which includes Psalms 51:3.
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See also Galatians 3:22.
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Are you not a part of all here?
Galatians 6:13 also:
For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law: but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.
A little background: the circumcised here refers to the circumcision group; who were the ones who claimed that a person is justified by law-keeping; which, according to Paul, James, and Jesus, would have required that a person never sin once from conception into eternity (Galatians 3:10-13, James 2:10, Matthew 5:48).
In other words, these were the people who were saying that a person is justified through personal holiness; through keeping one's self from sinning from the moment of conversion.
Even these people, who sought to be justified through keeping the law perfectly, and told others that their only means of justification was to keep the law perfectly, didn't keep the law. That is, they were sinners.
Because sin is the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4); and therefore to violate the law (because they were unable to keep it perfectly) was to sin.
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Are you not a part of all here?
Galatians 6:13 also:
For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law: but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.
A little background: the circumcised here refers to the circumcision group; who were the ones who claimed that a person is justified by law-keeping; which, according to Paul, James, and Jesus, would have required that a person never sin once from conception into eternity (Galatians 3:10-13, James 2:10, Matthew 5:48).
In other words, these were the people who were saying that a person is justified through personal holiness; through keeping one's self from sinning from the moment of conversion.
Even these people, who sought to be justified through keeping the law perfectly, and told others that their only means of justification was to keep the law perfectly, didn't keep the law. That is, they were sinners.
Because sin is the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4); and therefore to violate the law (because they were unable to keep it perfectly) was to sin.
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The truth won't be shut up. You are naive if you think Satan wins and we are not changed, just forgiven. The truth has been presented to you, but your itching ears loves darkness, and wants someone to tell you, "you can have your cake and eat it too." God will NOT be mocked by you or anyone teaching this filth. Jude 1:4 You turn the grace of God into lasciviousness. Hebrews 12:14 "without holiness, no man shall see God." You are capable of reading Scripture, but the meaning escapes you, and you sound very foolish indeed. I will only try this one last time, and then I'm done with you.
Galatians 3 is talking about the same thing Paul was saying in Romans 7. It is about the LAW, and the reason for it. It was because of SIN. Now let me see if I can get through to you in the simplest of terms that you can understand.
1. Since Adam sinned, all inherited his sin nature that he was cursed with. ALL - EVERYONE - NO ESCAPE. Therefore, before receiving Christ ALL HAVE SINNED. But Christ took away our sin, and in Him there is no sin. That means a Christian doesn't willfully sin. Understand? 1 John 3:4-9
2. Man's sin was not imputed to man until it became so bad that God gave the LAW to Moses for the purpose given in:
Galatians 3:
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
This is reiterated in Romans 7. Note sin was not imputed until after the law was given. The law was for the purpose of convicting man of their sin, and showing them how they cannot keep the law with their own sinful nature. Sin was the problem that needed to be cured, not the punishment for sin. Jesus gave us His own sinless Spirit to indwell us so we too could be free of sin.
Romans 7:8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. 9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me.
As for 1 John 1:8 the "we" is John's congregation, that was infiltrated by the Gnostics. This is a well known fact.
You quote "Because sin is the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4); and therefore to violate the law (because they were unable to keep it perfectly) was to sin." Do you always just take scripture out of context? Did you ever read further, even to the next verse? 1 John 3:5 "And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. Seeing as you are too foolish to take instruction, I'm ignoring you. At least I tried, but your heart is not hungry for righteousness, only justification for darkness. Proverbs 1:7 "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge, But fools despise wisdom and instruction."
Because we were sinners, God sent the law to guard us UNTIL Jesus could take away our SIN!!! Now we are sons and daughters, no longer slaves of sin.
John 8:
34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.
1 Corinthians 14:38
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Hello @1stCenturyLady,
I was merely trying to convince you of an essential understanding, that none of us is without sin (1 John 1:8). If you do not have this understanding it is because you are deceiving yourself and the truth is not in you (1 John 1:8).
This is not an attempt to turn the grace of God into lasciviousness in the slightest; but to seek to point out to you an essential truth of holy scripture. It is an attempt to make you aware of the truth of your own sinful state, that the element of sin does indeed dwell within you; and that this defines you as a sinner.
It is one of the essential truths of scripture that there is a total depravity in man. Even Paul, when he wrote the inspired holy scriptures (and therefore could not have been in a state of being not born again), said, For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh), dwelleth no good thing... (Romans 7:18a).
You evidently have not read any of my posts (whether in the other message board that we both frequented; or even in this thread). If you had, you would have seen that the doctrine that I preach is a doctrine that is according to godliness; and in no way do I preach grace as a license for sin (Jude 1:4 NIV).
I believe it is essential to understand that you are a sinner before the Lord in order that you might be motivated to pray every day of your life for Him to accomplish in you what He promises in such passages as 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, Hebrews 10:10-17, and 1 John 3:5-9.
If you think that you have the promises spoken of in those passages as a one-time deal twenty years ago, there is no reason for relationship; in asking the Lord to do those things in your life TODAY.
1 John 1:9, to me, indicates that if we confess to the Lord the reality of our very sin nature, that He will forgive us and cleanse us of nature of sin. But when we begin to un-confess this reality, we revert back to a state of not being forgiven and cleansed.
I hope you will decide to continue this discussion with me; because I am not willfully ignorant as you seem to think.
I was merely trying to convince you of an essential understanding, that none of us is without sin (1 John 1:8). If you do not have this understanding it is because you are deceiving yourself and the truth is not in you (1 John 1:8).
This is not an attempt to turn the grace of God into lasciviousness in the slightest; but to seek to point out to you an essential truth of holy scripture. It is an attempt to make you aware of the truth of your own sinful state, that the element of sin does indeed dwell within you; and that this defines you as a sinner.
It is one of the essential truths of scripture that there is a total depravity in man. Even Paul, when he wrote the inspired holy scriptures (and therefore could not have been in a state of being not born again), said, For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh), dwelleth no good thing... (Romans 7:18a).
You evidently have not read any of my posts (whether in the other message board that we both frequented; or even in this thread). If you had, you would have seen that the doctrine that I preach is a doctrine that is according to godliness; and in no way do I preach grace as a license for sin (Jude 1:4 NIV).
I believe it is essential to understand that you are a sinner before the Lord in order that you might be motivated to pray every day of your life for Him to accomplish in you what He promises in such passages as 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, Hebrews 10:10-17, and 1 John 3:5-9.
If you think that you have the promises spoken of in those passages as a one-time deal twenty years ago, there is no reason for relationship; in asking the Lord to do those things in your life TODAY.
1 John 1:9, to me, indicates that if we confess to the Lord the reality of our very sin nature, that He will forgive us and cleanse us of nature of sin. But when we begin to un-confess this reality, we revert back to a state of not being forgiven and cleansed.
I hope you will decide to continue this discussion with me; because I am not willfully ignorant as you seem to think.
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1 John 1 shows the contrast between light and darkness.
5 = light
6 = darkness
7 = light
8 = darkness
9 = light (how to become saved)
10 = darkness
The darkness are the unsaved, who only profess to be righteous, but aren't = like the Jews still under the law and the Gnostics of 1 John 4:1-3.
1 John 3:9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
You better rethink 1:8 because is doesn't mean what you keep telling yourself it means.
When you are baptized with the Holy Spirit, you are no longer in this sinful state. Romans 8:9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
If we still have a problem with sin, it is because we don't have the Spirit. Are you still a sinner? Do you belong to Christ? Those who sin, do not have the Spirit and do not belong to Christ.
Hi @1stCenturyLady,
I am not telling myself that 1 John 1:8 means anything.
(you do not remember me, do you?)
I believe that 1 John 3:9 definitely means that we are new creatures in Christ: the old has passed away; behold, all things are become new!
Our direction that we are walking in as bona fide, genuine, born again believers with a living and saving faith is exactly opposite from the direction we were walking in before we got saved.
It does not change the fact that there is sin dwelling on the inside of you. I qualify this by saying that it is either dead (Romans 6:6-7, Galatians 5:24, Romans 7:8) or alive (Romans 7:9).
Your salvation is not based on your performance but on forgiveness through the shed blood of Jesus Christ.
You are either saved by your works (what you do/how you perform) or you are saved by grace (His finished work on the Cross).
To be saved by works you would have to be absolutely perfect from the moment of conception to the point of death and afterward throughout all of eternity (Galatians 3:10, James 2:10, Matthew 5:48).
I'm glad that I'm saved by grace (Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:1-8, Romans 11:5-6, Titus 3:4-7). It has had the effect of setting me free from many sinful behaviours. But, I've still got room to grow (Philippians 3:12-16).
re #98.
I am not telling myself that 1 John 1:8 means anything.
(you do not remember me, do you?)
I believe that 1 John 3:9 definitely means that we are new creatures in Christ: the old has passed away; behold, all things are become new!
Our direction that we are walking in as bona fide, genuine, born again believers with a living and saving faith is exactly opposite from the direction we were walking in before we got saved.
It does not change the fact that there is sin dwelling on the inside of you. I qualify this by saying that it is either dead (Romans 6:6-7, Galatians 5:24, Romans 7:8) or alive (Romans 7:9).
Your salvation is not based on your performance but on forgiveness through the shed blood of Jesus Christ.
You are either saved by your works (what you do/how you perform) or you are saved by grace (His finished work on the Cross).
To be saved by works you would have to be absolutely perfect from the moment of conception to the point of death and afterward throughout all of eternity (Galatians 3:10, James 2:10, Matthew 5:48).
I'm glad that I'm saved by grace (Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:1-8, Romans 11:5-6, Titus 3:4-7). It has had the effect of setting me free from many sinful behaviours. But, I've still got room to grow (Philippians 3:12-16).
re #98.
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