Regarding the Holy Spirit and His gifts I believe...

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Rearding the baptism of the Holy Spirit, spiritual gifts and some other things I believe;

  • 1. Yes, I know this is for today and all gifts including tongues, are yet given to believers.

  • 2. There is no secondary experience from God once you truly become a Christian.

  • 3. Those who speak in tongues are completely deceived, this is not from God at all.

  • 4. Spiritual gifts, including tongues passed away after the time of the apostles ended

  • 5. Those lacking baptism in the Holy Spirit lack God's anointing and power

  • 6. My denominations teaching on this is true. Baptism in the Holy Spirit is not for now.

  • 7. Jesus no longer speaks directly to believers, only through the scripture

  • 8. Miracles of healing are not for today, modern medicine and doctors are our means of healing

  • 9. Much of the bible is allegorical and never really happened.

  • 10. I am a Christian but Jesus Christ is not God Almighty


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Frank Lee

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God steps in and meets, exceeds our need. Once we were short of money and food. We had a ham and our daughter who was small at the time swears that she saw meat grow on that thing so that it lasted and lasted.

I have a small bottle of mercurochrome that we've had for at least twenty years. You can't buy it in the USA anymore. Every time I'm cut or scratched there is always another dab in that bottle. It's like the vitamin bottle Corrie Ten Boom told about in the prison camp.

I'm sure that many many things are done for us that we are never even aware of.

Once I decided to pass a slow car and pulled out to pass. Then I just didn't and pulled back in behind. A few miles later that car was hit from the side by three men in a truck running from police. If I'd passed it would have been us. We found that my wife was pregnant crafter 14 years with a cmson promised by the Lord. The people hit were OK but were not believers. God protects His own children first.

There are so many things God has done over the years that I can't remember them all.
 

faithfulness

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I was with ya...
but I never thought once of wanting my special language, so that sentence did not ring true.

I didn't understand, you remind us of Enoch, O Enoch! Oh the love God had for Enoch!
David, too!
Then, this sentence that the Son is the ONLY one that pleases Him.
Before I comment more...how can you say that? Thank you.....only is the word in question.

Oh, Faithfulness...you can comment also if you wish since you agree. :)
You're sharp :) The words don't come to me as easily...I must wait...
 

Miss Hepburn

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Now if only I could figure out how to escape chronic pain and be healed.
Find a Charismatic Church...;)
that is all you have to 'figure out' ...where is one!
Oh my, years of "sand paper'' on the ball
that goes into the hip socket (Greater Trochanter)...Oh the stories of pain.
Gone July 2009.
 

Frank Lee

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We've given up on churches. Everyone of them are word of faith, so called prosperity driven and we do not agree with them. In many of these type churches you are blamed if you are in need. Your confession is not right etc. I find that those not in need often secretly look down on the needy.

After our daughter was killed we were shunned as if our tragedy was catching. It is far far better to be separate than to be in a congregation of uncaring souls.

I'm sorry for them but will not adopt their frigid ways where miracles are dependant on a perfect confession.

But now it touches you... Job was indifferent until he was touched by tragedy. America is gasping for revival in all churches.
 

Heart2Soul

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Frank thank you for addressing such a controversial topic....I have to say I pray and often while I am in prayer the anointing of the Holy Spirit becomes so strong and there is something stirred in my spirit to pray about and I don't know exactly what to pray and then I break out in praying in tongues....but when I am done I sit and wait for God to give me the translation of it. On occasion when I am praying with someone I break out praying in tongues but then go back to English....only one time in my life did the Holy Spirit lead me to pray for this person and when I asked her if I could pray for her she said yes and the whole time it was in tongues....I had no idea what it was about but the power of the Holy Spirit was there the whole time.....a week later she called me and said that she had a doctors appointment the next day to do more tests on a tumor found on her kidneys but when they did the ultrasound it was totally gone and the doctor even retrieved the first cat scan pictures where it was very present...he could only shake his head and say I have never seen this before and it is a miracle.
 

amadeus

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Frank thank you for addressing such a controversial topic....I have to say I pray and often while I am in prayer the anointing of the Holy Spirit becomes so strong and there is something stirred in my spirit to pray about and I don't know exactly what to pray and then I break out in praying in tongues....but when I am done I sit and wait for God to give me the translation of it. On occasion when I am praying with someone I break out praying in tongues but then go back to English....only one time in my life did the Holy Spirit lead me to pray for this person and when I asked her if I could pray for her she said yes and the whole time it was in tongues....I had no idea what it was about but the power of the Holy Spirit was there the whole time.....a week later she called me and said that she had a doctors appointment the next day to do more tests on a tumor found on her kidneys but when they did the ultrasound it was totally gone and the doctor even retrieved the first cat scan pictures where it was very present...he could only shake his head and say I have never seen this before and it is a miracle.
Thank you for these words. Sometimes I have gone through the scriptures carefully searching, but never finding a particular thing that I thought I needed. Then when a real situation happened I had the right words in English or in tongues according to the situation. Sometimes people are uncomfortable telling us precisely what their problem is, but they really need and want someone to encourage them and to prayer for them. Then often will come the prayer to me in an unknown tongue on their behalf. God knows what we do not and will use us and provide what is needed when we could not give it even if we could understand it.

Then again, what Frank said in his last post touched me deeply especially with regard to the following words he wrote:
@Frank Lee
In many of these type churches you are blamed if you are in need.

My wife has been put down badly countless times in church settings with people who supposedly loved God but without mercy or love [charity] because she has over the years had many ailments and accidents. People have often accused her of not having faith and living by it and/or not trusting God for healing.

God let her understand why years ago when I was having so much trouble with it myself. He used her to explain it to me.


Yes, one reason that she was allowed to have so many these problems was to help us to live by faith, but a perhaps more important reason, or a more to the point reason, was for the benefit all of those people who accused her and me of not having enough faith. How did they treat us, her in particular, and how did we treat them as a result of their seeming lack of mercy, their lack of understanding, their accusing looks and words? All of this comes down to charity. Remembering here the words Apostle Paul wrote:

"And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity." I Cor 13:13

And charity?

"Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things." I Cor 13:4-7
 
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Frank Lee

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Zechariah 13:6 KJVS
And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.

Religion hurts everyone. Love hurts no one. Overcoming our flesh nature is the most difficult thing we will have to do. Just to stop for long enough to look below the surface will give great insight. God will give discernment if we just wait a little. Hurts cause people to react in negative ways. What seems to be anger is many times a wounded soul crying out.

Even so God has told me many times just because I'm sick or in pain or afflicted in some way does not give me the right to take it out on others. It's not their fault.

It's time past time for a massive revival in God's people. When His Holy Spirit is present in abundance of anointing many things are healed. Things we spend hours praying about are made right in a moment by His anointing.

Methodists just for instance used to be a wonderfully anointed group. The founders, the Wesley's, would be appalled at the level that group has fallen to.

The so called word of faith movement/prosperity was really getting cranked up when i was saved in 1977. My wife and I rejected these. When we told that God had fulfilled His promise in opening my wife's womb after years of prayer and seeking His face we had strange responses.

People wanted to know what scriptures we had confessed to bring this to pass! As if it was some kind of formula we used to get God to do our miracle. We were really sickened that they didn't see the Lord as we did.

Religion always wants to make a set of laws and rules. This eliminates having to really really seek God. Those that know the meaning of psalm 62:8 are blessed.
 
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Dave L

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Why the gifts are not for today:

It's because of the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ

“so that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ; who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye be unreproveable in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, through whom ye were called into the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.” (1 Corinthians 1:7–9)

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants, even the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John;” (Revelation 1:1)

All of the gifts expired, and history confirms this, about the time John published the Revelation of Jesus Christ.


602. ἀποκάλυψις apŏkalupsis, ap-ok-al´-oop-sis; from 601; disclosure:—appearing, coming, lighten, manifestation, be revealed, revelation.

Strong, J. (2009). A Concise Dictionary of the Words in the Greek Testament and The Hebrew Bible (Vol. 1, p. 14).

used for Revelation by Paul and John
 

Heart2Soul

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Why the gifts are not for today:

It's because of the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ

“so that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ; who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye be unreproveable in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, through whom ye were called into the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.” (1 Corinthians 1:7–9)

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants, even the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John;” (Revelation 1:1)

All of the gifts expired, and history confirms this, about the time John published the Revelation of Jesus Christ.


602. ἀποκάλυψις apŏkalupsis, ap-ok-al´-oop-sis; from 601; disclosure:—appearing, coming, lighten, manifestation, be revealed, revelation.

Strong, J. (2009). A Concise Dictionary of the Words in the Greek Testament and The Hebrew Bible (Vol. 1, p. 14).

used for Revelation by Paul and John
The gifts are from the Holy Spirit and if they expired then you imply the Holy Spirit is expired as well?.....the Holy Spirit hasn't changed one thing about His fruits and gifts.....SMH
 
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Dave L

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The gifts are from the Holy Spirit and if they expired then you imply the Holy Spirit is expired as well?.....the Holy Spirit hasn't changed one thing about His fruits and gifts.....SMH
Paul said they would expire and and they did along with the apostles who distributed them.
 

Heart2Soul

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Paul said they would expire and and they did along with the apostles who distributed them.
Paul taught the Ephesians a whole different message....
Ephesians 4
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

So notice verse 11......then the following verses....are the saints perfected yet? have we all come in the unity of faith? No we haven't.....and why would God take away the gifts?
 
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Dave L

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Paul taught the Ephesians a whole different message....
Ephesians 4
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

So notice verse 11......then the following verses....are the saints perfected yet? have we all come in the unity of faith? No we haven't.....and why would God take away the gifts?
But it still remains, the Charismatic gifts ended with the apostle's deaths. Their sole means of distribution.
 

Triumph1300

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But it still remains, the Charismatic gifts ended with the apostle's deaths. Their sole means of distribution.

Says who? A new member coming for this purpose to this forum?

You can post anything you want, but that's just your opinion.
I don't see you quoting any scriptures in this regards.

This is what the Bible says:

Jesus: The same yesterday, today, and forever.

Hebrews 13:8
 
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Dave L

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Says who?
You can post anything you want, but that's just your opinion.
I don't see you quoting any scriptures in this regards.

This is what the Bible says:

Jesus: The same yesterday, today, and forever.
If you can find another means of distribution for the Charismatic gifts in the NT besides the two outpourings and the hands of an apostle, you can state your claim. But it is unfounded apart from doing this.
 

Heart2Soul

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If you can find another means of distribution for the Charismatic gifts in the NT besides the two outpourings and the hands of an apostle, you can state your claim. But it is unfounded apart from doing this.

Most of the NT contains letters from Paul to different churches or peoples....there were 12 disciples who became apostles that walked with Jesus but there were 70 others mentioned as well....we just don't have the writings and testimonies of all of them....so to base your entire belief on what Paul wrote you set yourself up for limited understanding of God and the Holy Spirit.

Luke 10 is the only place where we find the account of Jesus sending a specific 70 (or 72) disciples to prepare the way before Him. The discrepancies in the number (70 or 72) come from differences found in approximately half of the ancient scrolls used in translation. The texts are nearly evenly divided between the numbers, and scholars do not agree on whether the number should be 70 or 72, although such a minor issue is no cause for debate. Since the number 70 is repeated other places in Scripture (Exodus 24:1; Numbers 11:16; Jeremiah 29:10), it may be more likely that the actual number of disciples was 70, with the 2 being a copyist’s error. Whether there were 70 or 72 disciples sent out by Jesus is irrelevant. What is important are the instructions Jesus gave them and the power that came upon them to perform miracles and cast out demons (Luke 10:17).

After appointing the 70 (or 72) disciples, Jesus spoke of the great need for evangelism (Luke 10:1–2). He then commissioned the 70, giving them these instructions:

1) Go (Luke 10:3). This is foundational. The 70 were to divide into pairs and visit all the places where Jesus was about to go.

2) Be wary (Luke 10:3).The 70 were like lambs among wolves, surrounded by danger.

3) Live by faith (Luke 10:4). The 70 were to carry no extra provisions. They carried the message of Jesus and didn’t need to be burdened down with material things.

4) Be focused (Luke 10:4). The 70 were to greet no one along the road and not allow themselves to be sidetracked from the more important mission of evangelism.

5) Extend your blessing (Luke 10:5–6). Whoever housed the 70 were to be blessed, using the common greeting of the day, “Peace to this house.”

6) Be content (Luke 10:7). The 70 were told not to seek better accommodations; they were to stay in the home that first received them.

7) Receive your due (Luke 10:7). The laborer is worthy of his wages (cf. 1 Timothy 5:17–18). Doing evangelistic work is indeed work and is worthy of compensation.

8) Be flexible (Luke 10:7–8). The 70 were to eat whatever their hosts served; as God’s servants, they were not to be finicky.

9) Heal the sick (Luke 10:9). Jesus gave the 70 disciples specific authority to heal diseases and illness. It was as if the Great Physician had 70 interns making house calls. When the 70 returned to Jesus, they jubilantly recounted how they were able not only to heal diseases but to cast out demons as well (verse 17).

10) Proclaim the kingdom (Luke 10:9). The message of the 70 disciples was simple: “The kingdom of God has come near to you.” This was a clear-cut call to faith in the King who would soon visit each village.

Jesus then told the 70 (or 72) disciples that they might expect rejection in some villages (Luke 10:10), and He told them how to respond: publicly wipe the dust of that town from their feet (Luke 10:11; cf. 9:5), proclaim the kingdom one more time, and warn them of coming judgment (Luke 10:12).

A similar commissioning had occurred with Jesus’ twelve apostles as the Lord sent them out to cure diseases and cast out demons (Matthew 10:1–42; Luke 9:1–6). The main difference is that Jesus had told the Twelve that they were to preach in Galilee, avoiding Gentile areas and Samaria, but the 70 (or 72) were given no such restriction.

The identities of the 70 disciples are never given in Scripture, and the group is never mentioned again, even during the time of the early church in Acts. It seems their ministry was specific to preparing Jesus’ path to Jerusalem. Various individuals have been suggested as possibly being part of the 70—the unnamed exorcist in Luke 9:49, for example. Two of them may have been Barsabbas (known as Justus) and Matthias (Acts 1:23), since they were chosen by the apostles as possible replacements for Judas (Acts 1:15–18). One of the requirements for apostleship was that the candidate had to “have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus was living among us, beginning from John’s baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection” (Acts 1:21–22). We can also speculate that the 70 were part of the 120 gathered in the upper room on Pentecost when the Holy Spirit was first poured out (Acts 1:15).
 
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Dave L

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Most of the NT contains letters from Paul to different churches or peoples....there were 12 disciples who became apostles that walked with Jesus but there were 70 others mentioned as well....we just don't have the writings and testimonies of all of them....so to base your entire belief on what Paul wrote you set yourself up for limited understanding of God and the Holy Spirit.

Luke 10 is the only place where we find the account of Jesus sending a specific 70 (or 72) disciples to prepare the way before Him. The discrepancies in the number (70 or 72) come from differences found in approximately half of the ancient scrolls used in translation. The texts are nearly evenly divided between the numbers, and scholars do not agree on whether the number should be 70 or 72, although such a minor issue is no cause for debate. Since the number 70 is repeated other places in Scripture (Exodus 24:1; Numbers 11:16; Jeremiah 29:10), it may be more likely that the actual number of disciples was 70, with the 2 being a copyist’s error. Whether there were 70 or 72 disciples sent out by Jesus is irrelevant. What is important are the instructions Jesus gave them and the power that came upon them to perform miracles and cast out demons (Luke 10:17).

After appointing the 70 (or 72) disciples, Jesus spoke of the great need for evangelism (Luke 10:1–2). He then commissioned the 70, giving them these instructions:

1) Go (Luke 10:3). This is foundational. The 70 were to divide into pairs and visit all the places where Jesus was about to go.

2) Be wary (Luke 10:3).The 70 were like lambs among wolves, surrounded by danger.

3) Live by faith (Luke 10:4). The 70 were to carry no extra provisions. They carried the message of Jesus and didn’t need to be burdened down with material things.

4) Be focused (Luke 10:4). The 70 were to greet no one along the road and not allow themselves to be sidetracked from the more important mission of evangelism.

5) Extend your blessing (Luke 10:5–6). Whoever housed the 70 were to be blessed, using the common greeting of the day, “Peace to this house.”

6) Be content (Luke 10:7). The 70 were told not to seek better accommodations; they were to stay in the home that first received them.

7) Receive your due (Luke 10:7). The laborer is worthy of his wages (cf. 1 Timothy 5:17–18). Doing evangelistic work is indeed work and is worthy of compensation.

8) Be flexible (Luke 10:7–8). The 70 were to eat whatever their hosts served; as God’s servants, they were not to be finicky.

9) Heal the sick (Luke 10:9). Jesus gave the 70 disciples specific authority to heal diseases and illness. It was as if the Great Physician had 70 interns making house calls. When the 70 returned to Jesus, they jubilantly recounted how they were able not only to heal diseases but to cast out demons as well (verse 17).

10) Proclaim the kingdom (Luke 10:9). The message of the 70 disciples was simple: “The kingdom of God has come near to you.” This was a clear-cut call to faith in the King who would soon visit each village.

Jesus then told the 70 (or 72) disciples that they might expect rejection in some villages (Luke 10:10), and He told them how to respond: publicly wipe the dust of that town from their feet (Luke 10:11; cf. 9:5), proclaim the kingdom one more time, and warn them of coming judgment (Luke 10:12).

A similar commissioning had occurred with Jesus’ twelve apostles as the Lord sent them out to cure diseases and cast out demons (Matthew 10:1–42; Luke 9:1–6). The main difference is that Jesus had told the Twelve that they were to preach in Galilee, avoiding Gentile areas and Samaria, but the 70 (or 72) were given no such restriction.

The identities of the 70 disciples are never given in Scripture, and the group is never mentioned again, even during the time of the early church in Acts. It seems their ministry was specific to preparing Jesus’ path to Jerusalem. Various individuals have been suggested as possibly being part of the 70—the unnamed exorcist in Luke 9:49, for example. Two of them may have been Barsabbas (known as Justus) and Matthias (Acts 1:23), since they were chosen by the apostles as possible replacements for Judas (Acts 1:15–18). One of the requirements for apostleship was that the candidate had to “have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus was living among us, beginning from John’s baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection” (Acts 1:21–22). We can also speculate that the 70 were part of the 120 gathered in the upper room on Pentecost when the Holy Spirit was first poured out (Acts 1:15).
And the charismatic gifts only came through the hands of an apostle. Except for the two outpourings. No apostles today = no true charismatic gifts.
 
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Dave L

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Says who? A new member coming for this purpose to this forum?

You can post anything you want, but that's just your opinion.
I don't see you quoting any scriptures in this regards.

This is what the Bible says:

Jesus: The same yesterday, today, and forever.

Hebrews 13:8
You need to refute what I say with more than opinion.