No, you're the one manipulating my quotes. It is your scenario I protest. It is your dishonesty I protest.
Stranger
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No, you're the one manipulating my quotes. It is your scenario I protest. It is your dishonesty I protest.
Stranger
[/QUOTE]
This has nothing to do with the Mosaic Law which did not exist at this time. God had given no such Law at this time. Abraham was under no such Law at this time. Abraham obeyed the voice of God and in so doing was obeying what later would be in the Mosaic Law.
Stranger
Made mistakes!? If, as you say, Abraham was obeying all these laws and commandments, then why don't you say he was equally breaking all these laws and commandments? Why don't you say Abraham was sinning against God?
Thus why would God establish a Covenant with Abraham when he was such a lawbreaker. Such a sinner? Oh, I got it...just mistakes.
The only commandment that Abraham was under to establish the Covenant with him, was to leave Ur and go to the land.
Why don't you ever comment on (Gen. 15:7-17) as it proves that God has bound Himself to the terms of this Covenant and no man. As I have mentioned it several times.
Stranger
This has nothing to do with the Mosaic Law which did not exist at this time. God had given no such Law at this time. Abraham was under no such Law at this time. Abraham obeyed the voice of God and in so doing was obeying what later would be in the Mosaic Law.
Stranger[/QUOTE]
Hi Stranger,
I haven't been following along really well, but there were laws and commandments in the Covenants BEFORE the Mosaic too. I'm just wondering if this is the problem here.
I have to log off but found this on the internet which I agree with:
Since Abraham walked with the Lord in his own, earlier time, God would have revealed to him certain principles of holy, spiritual conduct, the sort of behaviour which God wants to see in all of us. Certainly Abraham obeyed the Lord and his heart was fully committed to a close walk with God. So this is undoubtedly a reference to the Seven Laws of Noah which applied to all of human life (not just the Jews):
The Noahic covenant [Genesis 8-9] applies to the whole of humankind. In this covenant, God:
1. God blessed Noah and his sons, and told them to populate the earth [9:1]
2. Placed all plants and animals under human command [9:2-3]
3. Forbade the eating meat with the blood still in it [9:4]
4. Murder was forbidden [9:5]
5. Humankind were commanded to shed the blood of those who shed blood [9:6]
6. The Lord promised that he would never again destroy all life on earth by a flood [9:11]
7. The Lord created the rainbow as the sign of this covenant for all ages to come [9:12-17]
However, these laws are sometimes listed differently. The Talmud also mentions these laws, which are sometimes listed in the following manner:
1.Do not deny God.
2.Do not blaspheme God.
3.Do not murder.
4.Do not engage in incestuous, adulterous or other immoral sexual relationships.
5.Do not steal.
6.Do not eat of a live animal.
7.Establish courts/legal system to ensure law and obedience.
In 'The Noahide Laws,' Jeffrey Spitzer offers us this further information:
The children of Noah were commanded with seven commandments: [to establish] laws, and [to prohibit] cursing God, idolatry, illicit sexuality, bloodshed, robbery, and eating flesh from a living animal (Sanhedrin 56a; cf. Tosefta Avodah Zarah 8:4 and Genesis Rabbah 34:8). Source:The Noahide Laws | My Jewish Learning
Any possible differences here should not bother anyone since everything is complimentary, also, points 6-7 in the first listing are divine promises rather than laws. In the same manner, the 'Law of Christ' (Sermon on the mount, Matthew 5-7) can never have listed and numbered points but should be written on the heart.
In the Book of Acts, we see the Jerusalem Conference of around AD50 applying these principles to all Gentiles who were coming to Christ:
source: Which Law Does Genesis 26:5 Refer to Abraham Obeying?
There is the Natural Law of God which maybe is being forgotten here. Even atheists believe these laws, as most of humanity does. It refers also to
Romans 1:19-20
God's attributes have always been known and what He desires from us man has always known in a natural way...thus the Natural Law.
Helen
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Thats okay...we don't have to agree
For me the clue is in ..."Man shall not live by bread alone...( we cannot live by the bible alone) ..but by every word with proceeds from the mouth of God."
If we are living our life just by what we hear via the bible then we are missing much. If Christians are not hearing their loving Father speaking to them...then it is a very strange relationship.
If they finally take our bibles from us...then we'd better KNOW HOW to hear the proceeding word of God for today..and our next step...it could be life or death for us or our family.
Just my opinion...
GodsGrace
But the written Law makes a difference. It makes men accountable to it. It makes men transgressors and not just sinners. That is what the Mosaic Law did.
(Rom. 5:13-14) "(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come."
For Adam to Moses, no Law that made man accountable to it.
Stranger
But the written Law makes a difference. It makes men accountable to it. It makes men transgressors and not just sinners. That is what the Mosaic Law did.
(Rom. 5:13-14) "(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come."
For Adam to Moses, no Law that made man accountable to it.
Stranger
Thats okay...we don't have to agree
For me the clue is in ..."Man shall not live by bread alone...( we cannot live by the bible alone) ..but by every word with proceeds from the mouth of God."
If we are living our life just by what we hear via the bible then we are missing much. If Christians are not hearing their loving Father speaking to them...then it is a very strange relationship.
If they finally take our bibles from us...then we'd better KNOW HOW to hear the proceeding word of God for today..and our next step...it could be life or death for us or our family.
Just my opinion...
I would say that the Bible is the Word of God that comes from the very mouth of God. Of course we have the Spirit of God and Christ in us, so that we communicate and walk with Him. And He directs us in matters not mentioned in the Bible, but that will not contradict what He has said in the Bible.
I have known believers who set out to memorize entire books of the Bible for that reason.
Stranger
"Bread alone..." refers to food for our bodies, bread being the staple of most of mankind. In contrast "every word of God" refers to food for our souls.
So what was the Lord saying? Mankind must not simply eat food to survive, but feed on the Word of God for eternal life and knowing God and doing His will. Christ -- the Bread of Life -- is revealed in Scripture.
Satan was suggesting to Jesus that survival was the most critical thing in life. The Lord turned that around and told him that mere survival meant nothing if the soul was damned. This corresponds to another saying of Christ: For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? (Mark 8:36,37)
He made mistakes at times - but God is speaking after Abraham had died -- in Genesis 26 talking to Isaac -- and God's summary of it all was that
was obeying " My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws." this is irrefutable.
What is more - Moses explains that phrase over and over.
So then - no taking God's name in vain - for Abraham
No worship of false Gods' for Abraham
No bowing down before images for Abraham
No dishonor to parents for Abraham
Obviously.
And informs us that all His agreements are conditional on obedience in Ezekiel 18 and Matthew 18 (forgiveness revoked...death of OSAS) ... and also that all His promises are conditional in Jeremiah 18.
So then Joseph takes Jacob and company into Egypt -- God's promise still in place.
God tells Abraham it would be more than 400 years before that promise began to surface.
============================
Abraham actually kept God's Laws as Moses points out.
Genesis 26
So Isaac went to Gerar, to Abimelech king of the Philistines. 2 The Lord appeared to him and said, “Do not go down to Egypt; stay in the land of which I shall tell you. 3 Sojourn in this land and I will be with you and bless you, for to you and to your descendants I will give all these lands, and I will establish the oath which I swore to your father Abraham.
4 I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven, and will give your descendants all these lands; and by your descendants all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; 5 because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws.”
For real.
Deut 5:31 But as for you, stand here by Me, that I may speak to you all the commandments and the statutes and the judgments which you shall teach them, that they may observe them in the land which I give them to possess.’
Moses is the one writing both. The audience is the same - reading Genesis 26 and Deut 5.
The point remains.
your argument is "with the text" again.
God said --
Genesis 26:3...and I will establish the oath which I swore to your father Abraham.
4 I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven, and will give your descendants all these lands; and by your descendants all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; 5 because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws.”
(try not to make this too easy for me)
Indeed -- the "Stranger" and I do not agree on much of anything when it comes to this topic, as we can all see.
Indeed he did -- God says that he "kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws.”
So then - no taking God's name in vain - for Abraham
No worship of false Gods' for Abraham
No bowing down before images for Abraham
No dishonor to parents for Abraham
You know... the usual.
God's Word is law even when no person comes after Him and "writes it down" -- as it turns out.
And as already stated - it is Moses writing -- The OT repeatedly uses that phrase to refer to the actual Commandments of God.
Less creative writing - more Bible please.
Genesis 7 Clean vs unclean animals. Clean by pairs of 7, unclean by pairs of 2 -- yet Lev 11 is not written before Genesis 7. Still the same AUTHOR writes them all - for the same readers. And God is not impaired in Genesis 7 waiting for Moses to write Leviticus 11. As it turns out.
Same thing in Genesis 4 "SIN is crouching at your door - you must master it" -- even though Exodus 20 "do not murder" comes later in terms of writing in stone.
Your speculation does not pass the sola-scriptura tests.
My argument is with you not the text. The Law did not exist in the days of Abraham. Paul states in (Rom. 5:13-14) that "...until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses."
What does that mean? It means from Adam to Moses there was no Law.
Stranger
You can repeat your usual all you want. See again (Rom. 5:13-14) There was no law from Adam to Moses. When Abraham lived, there was no Law.
Is (Rom. 5:13-14) speculation?
Stranger
See Romans 4:15 - "where there is no Law there is no SIN" Romans 5:13
See Romans 5:12 - there WAS SIN starting with Adam. 12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world
See 1 Tim 2:14 - SIN starting with Eve
See Genesis 4 - SIN even at the time of Cain
see 1 John 3:4 - SIN IS (by definition) "Transgression of the LAW" even in the NT
More Bible details... less creative writing please.
These are basic Bible facts agreed to by C.H. Spurgeon, Baptist Confession of Faith, Westminster Confession of Faith etc.
Essentially every Christian group on planet Earth admits to this basic fact about the Ten Commandments as the moral law of God written on the heart in the OT - starting in Eden.
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You need to pay attention. You need to give the chapter and verse. (Rom. 5:13-14) says just opposite of what you said. Sin existed before the Law. That is why death reigned. It reigned over them that were not under the law. That is the whole point of these verses.
Stranger
God said --
Genesis 26:3...and I will establish the oath which I swore to your father Abraham.
4 I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven, and will give your descendants all these lands; and by your descendants all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; 5 because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws.”
It is left as an exercise for the reader - choosing who to believe.
(try not to make this too easy for me)
Genesis 26:3...and I will establish the oath which I swore to your father Abraham.
4 I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven, and will give your descendants all these lands; and by your descendants all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; 5 because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws.”
It is left as an exercise for the reader - choosing who to believe.
(try not to make this too easy for me)
Again, you are not paying attention. (Rom. 5:13-14) shows you are mistaken in your post (#1056) and in your fantasy of Abraham being under law. Plus you said where there is no law there is no sin, and that is just opposite what (Rom. 5:13-14) is saying.
Stranger
Enoch goes to heaven without dying.
Noah is called "righteous" by God and Hebrews 11 has Noah living "righteousness by faith" -- "became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith."
Rom 5
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
1 John 3:4 - by definition: "SIN IS transgression of the LAW"
Rom 3:19-20 "through the LAW comes the knowledge of SIN"
Romans 5:13 "No sin - where there is no Law"
Rom 4:15 "15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression."
So then when we see SIN - in Genesis 4, in Romans 5 for Adam...etc we know there is LAW for by definiton "sin IS transgression of the LAW". period.
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