Eternal Security

Nancy said:

We, as carnal human beings will not always win the battles, but the war is already won

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Why not pray that God give you the victory in every battle? See Matthew 7:7-8, Ephesians 3:20.

Jun2u said:

When a person teach that there is only one God he is actually teaching heresy

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Actually the opposite is true if you take into consideration Deuteronomy 6:4. Trinitarianism is not Tritheism. To believe the former is not to believe the latter.

gadar perets said:

I guess that means Yeshua was teaching heresy when he said his Father was the "only true God". I'm in good company.

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Jesus isn't a false god. It follows that He also, is the only true God.

Love is indeed the fulfilling of the law (Romans 13:8-10). And it is shed abroad in the heart by the power of the Spirit (Romans 5:5). When we walk according to this love, the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us (Romans 8:4).

In understanding that your sin is ever before you (Psalms 51:3), you might come to the place of confessing your sin properly so that you might be cleansed from that sin (1 John 1:7-9).

It is in the understanding that the heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked (Jeremiah 17:9) that a man can come to the place of crying out to God for mercy (Luke 18:9-14) so that he can receive a new heart and a new spirit (Ezekiel 36:25-27) that is honest and good (Luke 8:15).

However, the moment you think of yourself as a "good person" you have forsaken your confession of sin and that cleansing is no longer yours.

It is in the perpetual understanding that I am a sinner before God that I am saved by grace.

In this, I place my trust wholly and completely in what Christ has done for me; and I no longer seek to be accepted before God by what I do (see Ephesians 2:8-9). My trust is no longer in how well I can perform as a believer but is completely in that finished work (Christ dying for me on the Cross).

As the result of being forgiven much, I begin to love Jesus much (Luke 7:36-50, 1 John 4:19, Romans 5:5); and this love is not impracitcal (1 John 3:17-18) but is the fulfillment of the law's righteousness within me (Romans 13:8-10, Romans 8:4).

And yes the Holy Spirit gets all the credit for my obedience motivated out of love; because He is the source of that love (Romans 5:5).

LOVE is a fruit of the Spirit. Without the Spirit, you can love, but it isn't the same as what the Spirit produces - unconditional love. Without the Spirit of Christ we do not belong to Jesus.

We can love Jesus for the promise of eternal life. But if you don't obey Him, you don't love Him. And you can't obey Him without the Holy Spirit.

justbyfaith said:

No; in the New Testament, obeying the commandments is not a requirement but a privilege.

We obey the Lord because we love Him; not in order to obtain, maintain, or earn our salvation.

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Even though we do NOT obey the law to earn salvation, we are REQUIRED to obey the law in order to avoid sin. Sin is the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4). We MUST avoid sin at all cost. If we slip up, we can receive forgiveness through confession, repentance and the blood of Yeshua, but woe to the man who continues in his sin (in his lawbreaking).

Episkopos said:

You don't impute a gift. The righteousness of God is a gift of grace from God. It is HIS righteousness....not ours. If you build a house....it can be attributed (imputed) to you. But if God does something and gives it to you...it is imputed to Him.

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Just a slight and important difference (@Enoch111 ) in opinion, Enoch and Episkopos: A more Unitarian view.

From the graceful gift of saving faith after our belief in the gospel that gives us justification, our heart and spirit then moves to receive and bond with the spirit of Christ.

The graceful gift at conversion is the spirit of Christ given to us by God. This bonding of two spirits provides us the righteousness of Christ that then gives us righteous with God. (Bonding) in Christ is the key to our right relationship with God our Father. Christ imputes his righteousness to us before God. God cannot impute is own righteousness to us directly; under the age of Grace. It must come from/ through Christ (his spirit). We are technically not directly in God (his fullness), Christ is. We are in Christ (his spirit only) first, to be ‘seen’ in God.

(I do make a deliberate distinction because Jesus and God are not the same person and I’m not a trinitarian).


I can cite scripture for all my posting if requested.

Blessings mates,

APAK

gadar perets said:

Even though we do NOT obey the law to earn salvation, we are REQUIRED to obey the law in order to avoid sin. Sin is the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4). We MUST avoid sin at all cost. If we slip up, we can receive forgiveness through confession, repentance and the blood of Yeshua, but woe to the man who continues in his sin (in his lawbreaking).

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Do you know about being born again with a new nature that doesn't sin? You can't break laws you have no desire to break in the first place.

justbyfaith said:

Messianic isn't Christian, in your opinion? Why is "Other Faith" more accurate to what you believe in than "Christian"?

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If "Messianic" was a choice, I would have chosen it. "Modern Christianity" has decided that non-trinitarians & Torah keepers cannot be Christians. We are supposedly lost forever and fallen from grace in the minds of many of them. I am a disciple of Messiah Yeshua who was not a Christian.

justbyfaith said:

You are denying what the scripture says (in Romans 3:31).

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No, Christians deny it. They say the law is abolished. Romans 3:31 says it is established (stands). I obey the law because faith establishes it. A lack of faith destroys it.

Jesus, also, is the only true God. For He is the Father incarnate (Isaiah 9:6).

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Please, spare me from that foolish argument. Did our Father lie to us by calling His Son a "Son" rather than "Himself"? Yeshua's Father cannot die. Therefore, He did not become "incarnate" and die.

Because we are forgiven through the blood of Christ, there is now no condemnation for the believer in Christ, coming from the law.

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That is only true for those who walk in the Spirit. If we walk in the flesh, there is condemnation.

The law is therefore no longer a requirement for the believer, but a privilege (and we see it as a privilege because we desire to obey for that the Spirit dwells within us); and our motivation for obeying is not because we will be punished over disobedience (for that penalty was taken by Jesus when He died on the Cross) but because we are thankful to Him and love Him, for that He has perpetually forgiven us of all sin.

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If it is a privilege to obey the law, then obey it by keeping the Sabbath day holy, celebrating the Feasts days, not eating unclean animal flesh ...

Stranger said:

And I am trying to help you understand you are involved in an impossible task. The Law just finds you guilty. You can't keep it. So quit trying to make other people keep it.

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It's not all bad. The whole thing in question will serve to be a schoolmaster to lead people to Christ (which is what the law does).

gadar perets said:

I did NOT say 2 John 1:4 is talking about the Ten Commandments. I cited that verse to show you that John believed there were other commandments to obey than just the two in 1 John 3:23. We are to obey the command to walk in the truth. Yes, Yeshua is the truth, but thee are other truths besides Yeshua.

Psalm 119:142 Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.
Psalm 119:151 Thou art near, O YHWH; and all thy commandments are truth.

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If you take a careful look at Romans 9:30-33, I believe you will see that there is a sense in which Jesus and the law are one.

justbyfaith said:

Slightly incorrect. It is not that we have to obey the law as Christians; but that if we are truly born again, we desire to obey the law. therefore if we don't desire to obey, it is because we are not born again. Nevertheless the believer is not under the law as a requirement; but because we are born again it becomes a privilege to obey.

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Obedience to the law is a fruit of one's salvation and it must be obeyed to avoid sinning.

This is not completely true. I do not believe that I need to obey the law for my salvation, yet I obey. Why? Because I love the Lord for that I am saved.

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I do not obey to be saved. What I meant was, if Christians teach that the Sabbath is abolished, for example, then it is impossible for them to obey that commandment.

Have you never read John 1:1,14? In that scenario, Jesus is the Word (who was God or a god, become flesh). If you believe the latter, I ask you whether you believe Jesus is a true god or a false god? If He is false, then it is not wise to continue on with Him, is it? But if He is a true god, then in all reality He would be the only true God.

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I do not and will not read Yeshua into that text as others do. In John 1:1, the logos is a thing, not a person. In John 1:14, the logos (YHWH's spoken words and thoughts) became a person. Yeshua is an "elohim", but he is NOT the "only true Elohim/God". He is the SON of the "only true Elohim."

The church I go to doesn't place very much emphasis on membership; all are basically welcome whether they define themselves as Christians or not, so that they can hear the gospel. But I know that if you believe in any false doctrines (such as denial of Christ's Deity), you would never be accepted into a leadership position; and speaking what you believe in (if it be false) would be greatly discouraged.

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It is your church that needs to reexamine the issue, not those who reject the deity of Christ.

justbyfaith said:

According to 1 Timothy 4:1-6, I would be a good minister of Jesus Christ to point out that it is a doctrine of demons that we ought to abstain from meats, which God has created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused if it be received with thanksgiving: For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

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I don't abstain from meats. I simply eat the meats that our Creator said are edible. Where are meats "sanctified by the word"? Leviticus 11 and Deuteronomy 14.

Jesus declared all foods clean in Mark 7:15-19, Luke 11:41, and Romans 14:14.

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Do not trust modern version or Christian interpretations of them. Go to the Greek.

gadar perets said:

No, Christians deny it. They say the law is abolished. Romans 3:31 says it is established (stands). I obey the law because faith establishes it. A lack of faith destroys it.



Please, spare me from that foolish argument. Did our Father lie to us by calling His Son a "Son" rather than "Himself"? Yeshua's Father cannot die. Therefore, He did not become "incarnate" and die.

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Read John 14:7-11. The Father was in Jesus and Jesus was in the Father. When Jesus died, the Father (the Spirit of Jesus...John 4:23-24) left His body in physical death. The eternal Spirit continued to be alive. It was the soul of Jesus that was offered as a sin offering (Isaiah 53:10). Physical death is separation of the soul from the body. This is how Jesus died.

You said you believe in the virgin birth. In that, do you believe that the Holy Spirit became one with the egg that was in the womb of the virgin Mary? If so, then you agree that Jesus is both 100% God, and 100% Man, in what is called the hypostatic union.

That is only true for those who walk in the Spirit. If we walk in the flesh, there is condemnation.

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Our salvation is not based on our performance but on our faith (John 5:24).

If it is a privilege to obey the law, then obey it by keeping the Sabbath day holy, celebrating the Feasts days, not eating unclean animal flesh ...

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I actually do my best at those things; but I find that I am still not perfect at doing them all. I am thankful therefore for the grace of the Lord in that I am forgiven through His shed blood ahead of time (because I confess that I am a sinner before Him and also desire not to sin; that is, to obey Him in everything).

1stCenturyLady said:

Do you know about being born again with a new nature that doesn't sin? You can't break laws you have no desire to break in the first place.

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That is your flesh talking. ALL Christians sin whether you admit it or not.

gadar perets said:

Obedience to the law is a fruit of one's salvation and it must be obeyed to avoid sinning.

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By what? Willpower?

gadar perets said:

That is your flesh talking. ALL Christians sin whether you admit it or not.

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The apostles say otherwise. 1 John 3:9

Is it so hard to understand law/grace? I mean, what did Christ even die for?
Why does Gospel mean "good news"? Was Jesus not enough? WE just have to get our OWN fleshly "works" in the mix like God needs our help.
Gotta get that glory, seek that crown for ourselves! Get our grubby hands all over something that has already been paid for and IMHO only those who have the Holy Spirit living in them (and, if u call yourself a christian...the H.S. must be in you or, "you are none of His") know what it really means in reality, how to truly do an about face from our "old, dead" man, and eagerly live in the new man, who obeys from the heart and with genuine gratitude.
2 Corinthians 11:3 “But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.
The gospel is so simple that it seems to go way over some's heads. 2 Corinthians 1:12
"For our boast is this, the testimony of our conscience, that we behaved in the world with simplicity and godly sincerity, not by earthly wisdom but by the grace of God, and supremely so toward you."
Matthew 18:3 and Jesus says, “Assuredly, I say to you, unless you change and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.”

As for me and mine -
John 8:36 “If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.”

Nancy said:

Is it so hard to understand law/grace?

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It is not hard once you know the true meaning of grace. It is power.

1. The law showed us our sin, and our sinful flesh wanted unrighteousness more than to obey.

2. The power of God in us by the Spirit defeated our old sinful flesh so the righteous requirement of the old law could be supernaturally fulfilled in us. Not by our own willpower, but by new desires born of the Spirit that loves righteousness.

And you shall receive power... That is grace.

justbyfaith said:

Read John 14:7-11. The Father was in Jesus and Jesus was in the Father.

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All believers are in the Father and the Father in them, but that does not make all believers the Father!

When Jesus died, the Father (the Spirit of Jesus...John 4:23-24) left His body in physical death. The eternal Spirit continued to be alive. It was the soul of Jesus that was offered as a sin offering (Isaiah 53:10). Physical death is separation of the soul from the body. This is how Jesus died.

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No. When Yeshua died, his own spirit left his body and returned to his Father who gave it to him (Eccl 12:7). Physical death is the separation of the spirit from the body. The spirit + the body = a living soul.

You said you believe in the virgin birth. In that, do you believe that the Holy Spirit became one with the egg that was in the womb of the virgin Mary? If so, then you agree that Jesus is both 100% God, and 100% Man, in what is called the hypostatic union.

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No, the Holy Spirit did not become one with the egg. It caused the egg to be fertilized with the necessary DNA to make a human male child (100% human, 0% God).

Our salvation is not based on our performance but on our faith (John 5:24).

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I agree. Why do you keep bringing up salvation by law keeping? That is a pitiful Christian argument to make law keeping seem wrong.

I actually do my best at those things; but I find that I am still not perfect at doing them all. I am thankful therefore for the grace of the Lord in that I am forgiven through His shed blood ahead of time (because I confess that I am a sinner before Him and also desire not to sin; that is, to obey Him in everything).

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The more you do them, the better you get at doing them and the easier they become. I have been doing those things for 33 years. They are a normal part of my life and so easy to obey.

1stCenturyLady said:

By what? Willpower?

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We must choose to obey and the Spirit will empower us to do so. We can also choose to disobey in which case the flesh wins the battle.

gadar perets said:

I do not and will not read Yeshua into that text as others do. In John 1:1, the logos is a thing, not a person. In John 1:14, the logos (YHWH's spoken words and thoughts) became a person. Yeshua is an "elohim", but he is NOT the "only true Elohim/God". He is the SON of the "only true Elohim."

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Your problem is not in your intellect but in your heart. Jesus said that those who will not believe that He is the great I AM, will die in their sins. You must be born again to go to heaven; and that includes accepting the testimony that Jesus Christ is God. No one can say that Jesus is the Lord except through the Holy Ghost (1 Corinthians 12:3). In Matthew 11:25 and Luke 10:21, Jesus called the Father, "Lord of heaven and earth." And then in 1 Corinthians 8:6 and in Ephesians 4:5, it is mentioned that there is one Lord. He is the "only Lord God' according to Jude 1:4 (kjv); and in that verse the Greek word for 'and' is 'kai', which can be translated 'even'.

When Jesus spoke of the shema He mentioned that the Lord our God is one Lord (Mark 12:29).

gadar perets said:

I don't abstain from meats. I simply eat the meats that our Creator said are edible. Where are meats "sanctified by the word"? Leviticus 11 and Deuteronomy 14.

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They are sanctified in 1 Timothy 4:4-5, Mark 7:15-19, Luke 11:41, and Romans 14:14. For the New Testament supersedes the Old Testament (2 Corinthians 3:12-15, Hebrews 8:13).

Do not trust modern version or Christian interpretations of them. Go to the Greek.

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I'm interested in what you think the Greek on those verses says. Nevertheless I do not feel I need the original Greek and Hebrew; because not only have the original autographs been lost to us; but I believe in the sovereignty, love, and omnipotency of God; and therefore I believe that He preserved His word perfectly in the kjv.