The Problem With The Trinity

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justbyfaith

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also, if you were a Muslim, cowering in fear for your family of a drone strike on your village tonight, your perspective might be different here.
Islam teaches that Muslims will go straight to heaven if they die in a holy war. So if they really believe what their religion says, they will not be cowering in fear, they will be rejoicing at their redemption. And also, if their religion is true, we would be doing them a favour by killing them in such a situation.
 
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Enoch111

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Not an exchange, but the addition of the nature of humanity (Jesus never ceased to be God in the incarnation).
Correct. Jesus of Nazareth was fully God and fully sinless Man at one and the same time.

And because this is beyond human (or humanistic) *reasoning* we have tremendous resistance to this truth. But what most fail to understand is that the entire Gospel message is beyond human reasoning. Believe it or disbelieve it. There is no middle ground.

The Bible says that Christ "thought it not robbery to be equal with God". Which means that He had every right to be called God, therefore He is called God. But the naysayers play around with John 1:1 because they have only two options -- believe it as stated or reject everything said about Christ in Scripture. There are no half measures with Jesus being "a god" or some such bogus entity. Only the cults resort to this foolishness.
 

justbyfaith

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The question that I want to ask is, Did God eternally beget the Son by creating some kind of an eternal mirror, so that the Person on the other side of the mirror was also eternally existent, and then became flesh and then died for us? (see Isaiah 45:5-6, Isaiah 45:18, and Isaiah 45:21-22).

Or, Did the (eternally existent) Father become flesh (thus moving from eternity into time) thus becoming and begetting the Son?

Why would God need to eternally beget the Son by creating an eternal mirror when it is clear from scripture that the Son's existence in human form began when the Holy Spirit overshadowed the womb of Mary's virginity? That He was begotten as a union between the Holy Spirit and Mary's egg, thus forming the hypostatic union?

It seems to me that Jesus being the Son of God is synonymous in scripture with the Father becoming incarnated in human flesh.

It seems to me also that an eternal mirror is not necessary, for the Son to be a distinct Person who is the same Spirit, the same Lord, and the same God (1 Corinthians 12:4-6) as the Father; thus being the same Person as the Father (and yet distinct from the Father, who dwells in eternity) with an added nature of humanity!

Because God the Father didn't vacate eternity (as that would have been impossible) when he became incarnated as the Son (see also Ephesians 3:11), whose name means YHWH is salvation.

Thoughts, comments, or opinions?
 
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justbyfaith

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It is a common trinitarian tactic to play on the fears and emotions of anyone that questions the trinity. "If you don't believe the trinity, you are lost ... If you don't believe the trinity, you don't belong in the Body of Christ ... If you don't believe the trinity, you are calling God a liar ... If you don't believe the trinity, you are calling Jesus a liar ... If you don't believe the trinity, you are going to hell ...". They are the carnal replies of men.
I wouldn't say that about rejecting the Trinity per se (as I see no biblical basis for that); but I would say that about rejecting the Deity of Jesus Christ (as there is a biblical basis for that...John 8:24). And the terminology I have used is none of the things you have mentioned above; for what I say is that if you don't believe that Jesus is the great I AM, you will die in your sins.
 
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justbyfaith

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I would really like everyone's help here, please. I am not one to attempt to pretend to understanding the Godhead, far less to state in any concrete terms what I do believe, except as it is expressed specifically in scripture. Being a holy subject, and a holy God, I am loathe to add conjecture or conclusion to clear points Biblically expressed that is outside or extra-Biblical. So, I have a question. This question is not to goad or promote a particular viewpoint, certainly no-one needs any help from me in offering their ideas, but truly I would appreciate some genuine thoughts on this.
Why is it that I have never seen any trinitarian use 1 Corinthians 8:6 in their defense of their belief? After all, in this passage Paul is speaking of the difference between the monotheistic belief on the Jews, and the pagan beliefs of idols. In verse 4 Paul says, that there is none other God but one. He then adds in verse 5, by way of making a specific contrast in Christian and Jewish theology with the rest of the world, For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) he concludes by stating categorically and in clear plain language the identity of who this one God is that Christians and Jews worshiped... But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Of all scriptures that declare plainly the identity of God, this is one prime example. Yet trinitarians don't use it, and dare I suggest, have difficulty in explaining it. Truly, I would like it explained in trinitarian terms that my own belief in a trinity may then be brought in line with the rest of orthodoxy. But of all scriptures that stall my belief in a trinity as believed by most, even in my own denomination, then this is it. Along with Ephesians 4:6. Surely if Paul believed in a trinity, regardless of what version, here was a grand opportunity to present it. But no. Paul confirms the very same belief Israel had accepted for thousands of years, and which made them different to all the surrounding nations. One God. Who? The Father.

The Greek word for 'and' there is 'kai' and it can be translated 'even'.


Thus, a more accurate translation of 1 Corinthians 8:6 might read, But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him: even one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

I believe that this is more accurate because the Father is also the one Lord (Ephesians 4:5, Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21); and Jesus is also the one God (Hebrews 1:8-9; John 8:58-59, John 10:31-33, Exodus 3:14).
 
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justbyfaith

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Also, Mark 12:29 says in the kjv:

And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is: Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord.
 

Reggie Belafonte

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Correct. Jesus of Nazareth was fully God and fully sinless Man at one and the same time.

And because this is beyond human (or humanistic) *reasoning* we have tremendous resistance to this truth. But what most fail to understand is that the entire Gospel message is beyond human reasoning. Believe it or disbelieve it. There is no middle ground.

The Bible says that Christ "thought it not robbery to be equal with God". Which means that He had every right to be called God, therefore He is called God. But the naysayers play around with John 1:1 because they have only two options -- believe it as stated or reject everything said about Christ in Scripture. There are no half measures with Jesus being "a god" or some such bogus entity. Only the cults resort to this foolishness.
Emmanuel he is, God with us. so that means that he is our God for us so we can see God the Father, no one come to the Father but through his only begotten Son Emmanuel.
Jesus Christ is not God the Father, but one in the same as far as humanly possible can come to God and we can comprehend such only through the Holy Spirit, so If one can not understand this fact that one is not truly Born Again and does not have the Holy Spirit.

Emmanuel is what he is and Jesus is what he does.

Did anyone think that a rock or something would come, no it had to me a Man, as Holy Moses said. and it was the workings of Sin that put Jesus on the Cross for all to see what the nature of man truly is, when led astray by the powers of Sin.
People are easy lead astray when they do not have the Holy Spirit to guide them.
Man in his carnal ungodly ways will love the murderers and the thief as we seen when the 2 others were up on their Cross, we can see that fact that they love the fools because they can see themselves in the fool. so such points to their derangement, they are under a curse. so of cause they can not see Jesus as their Christ.
Satan's mob are they that lead the whole world astray, they are just the blind fools leading the blind into hell. they are puffed up full of there own pride, that Camel and the eye of a needle come to mind hear as well.
 
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brakelite

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I appreciate the idea that our human terms and language cannot possibly describe the nature of God. Our definitions fall far short of being even remotely close to accurately describing the nature of God...what God is. This is the reason I baulk at accepting the commonly accepted formula of the trinity, as offered to us by the church; whether a direct quote from Nicea, or a slightly altered version. Because the trinity is just that...a formula created by man to describe God...which I believe is impossible.
However, while we may not be able to describe what God is, I believe we most assuredly have sufficient evidence to accurately relate to others the identity of God...Who God is. That evidence we find in scripture. And it is given in language we can understand, and in terms we are meant to understand, because the definitions of those terms were born in the mind and heart of our Creator, in Whose likeness we were made. That evidence in in scripture. In fact, it is the only place we should look. Councils in history were riven with controversy and doubtful motives...what conclusions those councils came up with must be treated with suspicion, and ought never to be used, as has been done and is still currently being done, as rock solid dogma that must be believed if one is to be accepted into the community of faith.
There are not that many scriptures which identify God, considering the scope of scripture, but what there is, are clear.

John 17:3...the words and testimony of Jesus Himself to His Father...and this is life eternal, that they might know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ Whom Thou hast sent.

1 Corinthians 8:6...the words and testimony of the apostle Paul in informing pagan idolaters who the true God really is...But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Acts 8:37; John6:68,69; John1:34,49; Matthew14:33; John20:31; from all these, and many more, we are informed that God had a Son, and His Son's name is Jesus. We are also informed that believing this truth, is the foundation of our faith leading to salvation...Acts9:19,20; Isaiah9:6; John3:16; Galatians 4:4; 1John4:9,10; 1John4:14.

Our natural God-given wisdom also informs us that the Son is of the same nature as His Father. Like Father like Son right? Me, being human, even before I have any children, assumes my own sons are also human. And guess what, joy oh joy, they are. And praise God, so also are my daughters. Why ought we accept anything other than that basic fundamental truth, that like begets like in relation to God and His Son? So the Son must also be God, right? Scripture clearly confirms this also, Jesus Himself testifying to His own divinity.

Finally, the Son clearly pre-existed creation, for scripture declares that all things were made by and for Him, the Word made flesh. The Word was in the beginning (John1:1,2) but in the beginning of what? The earth? Creation? No, because the Word pre-existed those things which were made. Could it be rightly said that when the Word was, this was the beginning? Colossians1:15 describes Jesus as the firstborn of every creature, can this refer to the incarnatrion?, no, because the very next verse says by HIm (the firstborn) were all things created. This is the same that is taught in John1:3, confirmed by Col.1:17 saying that He (the firstborn) is before all things.

I know many like to go beyond the above, in attempting to describe the relationship between Father and Son, by using for example John10:30.
But John10:30 must be viewed and considered in relation to other verses such as John14:28. Also one must take careful note of the subtle differences between John8:58 and John10:36. And what of the significance of Acts3:13?




 
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GodsGrace

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I am not a subscriber to the trinity belief. I believe there is a Father, son and holy ghost, but they are all manifestations of one God.
Sorry, just saw this.
Why is the above not the Trinity??
You said you do Not believe in the Trinity, and then you explained it...
Sorry, you might have done this already, but could you explain a little?
 
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brakelite

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I don't think any Christian can deny the existence of Father, Son, and holy Spirit. It is how they relate to one another where all our beliefs begin to come unglued. Our first error is in baking it a Trinity, with all the associated baggage that comes with that rather than keeping the combination of those three the Godhead, as scripture says.
 
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GodsGrace

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I don't think any Christian can deny the existence of Father, Son, and holy Spirit. It is how they relate to one another where all our beliefs begin to come unglued. Our first error is in baking it a Trinity, with all the associated baggage that comes with that rather than keeping the combination of those three the Godhead, as scripture says.
I admire how you've explained this so well and how maybe we shouldn't go beyond it. But, as I'm sure you must know, the Council of Nicea was convened exactly because some heresies were circulating stating that Jesus was not divine. If He was just another man, the N.T. has no logic.

Are you saying your understanding is different between
TRINITY
GODHEAD
?
 
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brakelite

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I admire how you've explained this so well and how maybe we shouldn't go beyond it. But, as I'm sure you must know, the Council of Nicea was convened exactly because some heresies were circulating stating that Jesus was not divine. If He was just another man, the N.T. has no logic.
In any controversy, argument, war, particularly when the victor gains much overall ascendancy, such as the Roman church did after Nicea, whatever we learn of the debate or war comes from the victors perspective. Only an infinitesimal amount of writing survived that was possibly written by Arius, and there is every possibility that may have been forged, so do we really know what Arius believed and taught? Do we truly know that he taught Jesus was a created being and not divine as reported? I ask because there was another so-called Arian missionary to the Goods by the name of Ulfillas, whose writings we do have, and know he taught orthodox Christian truth regarding the Sonship of Jesus and His divinity.
 
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GodsGrace

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In any controversy, argument, war, particularly when the victor gains much overall ascendancy, such as the Roman church did after Nicea, whatever we learn of the debate or war comes from the victors perspective. Only an infinitesimal amount of writing survived that was possibly written by Arius, and there is every possibility that may have been forged, so do we really know what Arius believed and taught? Do we truly know that he taught Jesus was a created being and not divine as reported? I ask because there was another so-called Arian missionary to the Goods by the name of Ulfillas, whose writings we do have, and know he taught orthodox Christian truth regarding the Sonship of Jesus and His divinity.
I like to refer to the ECF (Early Church Fathers, for those who don't know)
They were BEFORE the Council of Nicea and either knew an Apostle or someone who did. This is Christianity before it was tainted by becoming involved with political powers, such as Constantine.

Also, it does seem that the council was held due to beliefs circulating, of which Arius was a prime component, but this doesn't interest me too much...I do know that this heresy was accepted by many at the time. (the heresy of Jesus' not being divine).

Here are some of the statements of the ECF:

Now may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the eternal high priest himself, the Son of God Jesus Christ, build you up in faith and truth...and to us with you, and to all those under heaven who will yet believe in our Lord and God Jesus Christ and in his Father who raised him from the dead.[1]
Polycarp, 69-155 AD

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Ignatius, who is also Theophorus, unto her which hath been blessed in greatness through the plentitude of God the Father; which hath been foreordained before the ages to be for ever unto abiding and unchangeable glory, united and elect in a true passion, by the will of the Father and of Jesus Christ our God; even unto the church which is in Ephesus [of Asia], worthy of all felicitation: abundant greeting in Christ Jesus and in blameless joy.[2]

Being as you are imitators of God, once you took on new life through the blood of God you completed perfectly the task so natural to you.[3]

There is only one physician, who is both flesh and spirit, born and unborn, God in man, true life in death, both from Mary and from God, first subject to suffering and then beyond it, Jesus Christ our Lord.[4]

For our God, Jesus the Christ, was conceived by Mary according to God’s plan, both from the seed of David and of the Holy Spirit.[5]

Consequently all magic and every kind of spell were dissolved, the ignorance so characteristic of wickedness vanished, and the ancient kingdom was abolished when God appeared in human form to bring the newness of eternal life.[6]

For our God Jesus Christ is more visible now that he is in the Father.[7]

I glorify Jesus Christ, the God who made you so wise, for I observed that you are established in an unshakable faith, having been nailed, as it were, to the cross of the Lord Jesus Christ.[8]

Wait expectantly for the one who is above time: the Eternal, the Invisible, who for our sake became visible; the Intangible, the Unsuffering, who for our sake suffered, who for our sake endured in every way.[9]
Ignatius 50-117AD (Ignatius learned from John the Apostle)

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And that Christ being Lord, and God the Son of God, and appearing formerly in power as Man, and Angel, and in the glory of fire as at the bush, so also was manifested at the judgment executed on Sodom, has been demonstrated fully by what has been said.[10]

Permit me first to recount the prophecies, which I wish to do in order to prove that Christ is called both God and Lord of hosts.[11]

Therefore these words testify explicitly that He [Jesus] is witnessed to by Him [the Father] who established these things, as deserving to be worshipped, as God and as Christ.[12]

The Father of the universe has a Son; who also, being the first-begotten Word of God, is even God. And of old He appeared in the shape of fire and in the likeness of an angel to Moses and to the other prophets; but now in the times of your reign, having, as we before said, become Man by a virgin....[13]

For if you had understood what has been written by the prophets, you would not have denied that He was God, Son of the only, unbegotten, unutterable God.[14]
Justin Martyr 100-165AD




source: Nine Early Church Fathers Who Taught Jesus Is God | Stand to Reason
 

justbyfaith

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I believe that John 1:1 has as a parallel passage Ephesians 4:10.

God descended to become a Man, out of eternity into time, then ascended back out of time into eternity, to fill all things (and also transcended created time once again).

The pre-incarnate Christ (the Father) exists outside of time. The incarnate Christ (the Son) is a finite human being (while also being fully the Lord God; the Father incarnate...Isaiah 9:6) and bound to time. The after-incarnate Christ (the Holy Ghost) ascended to again be outside of time (Ephesians 4:10, Luke 23:46; see also 1 John 4:1-3, 2 John 1:7) and therefore exists as a distinct individual dwelling in eternity, outside of time. But the same Person as the Father (the eternal Spirit, John 4:23-24), yet distinct from the pre-incarnate Christ. The Holy Ghost also descends as often as He wills to come and dwell in believers; and He is the Person of the Trinity who does dwell in believers (2 Timothy 1:14). Yet, because He is in a sense the same Person as the Father and the Son (while also being distinct from the other Two), it can be said that the Father (Ephesians 4:6) and the Son (Colossians 1:27) also dwell in every believer. Yet the Bible teaches that there is one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4) and that God (the Father) is that Spirit (John 4:23-24). There is one Lord (Ephesians 4:5, 1 Corinthians 8:6) and God (the Father) is that Lord (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21; Acts of the Apostles 4:24, Mark 12:29 (kjv)). Yet no one can say that Jesus Christ of Nazareth is the Lord except by the Holy Ghost (1 Corinthians 12:3, Acts of the Apostles 4:10-12).

Thus, in John 1:1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Now the Word that was with God, in this scenario, would be the Father (for He was God); and the Word that was God (who was also with God); would be the Holy Ghost. The pre-incarnate Father is the One who became flesh. The Holy Ghost (the after-incarnate Father) did not have to become flesh because He had already been flesh.

Now when the pre-incarnate Father descends to become a Man, He is given the title Holy Ghost so that we may know that it is speaking of the same Person (in Luke 1:35). But truly it is the pre-incarnate Father who descends.

Now some may think that I am denying the Trinity in all of these statements. But I don't think that I am. I am attempting to refute Tritheism; which some people mistake the idea of the Trinity to actually mean.

And I am not promoting the concept of modalism either. Because while the Spirit inside of the human Jesus is the same Person as the Father (John 14:7-11), the human Jesus is not the Father in that the pre-incarnate Father's existence is outside of time: He inhabits eternity with him who is of a contrite and humble spirit (Isaiah 57:15). He is transcendent, Omnipresent, and in all and through all. The Father in the Son, on the other hand (being the same Person/God as the eternal Spirit, who is the Father, John 4:23-24, Ephesians 4:4) inhabits the human body of Jesus Christ: He is a finite human being in His humanity (1 John 4:1-3, 2 John 1:7)...and therefore the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, in my view, are distinct from each other, who each contain a consciousness of their own.

We must remember that God is one Spirit (John 4:23-24, Ephesians 4:4).

And Jesus, being God, is that Spirit (John 4:24) although He inhabits the human body of the Son, which is made of flesh (again, 1 John 4:1-3, 2 John 1:7).

All of this is to defend the common definition of the word "One" in Deuteronomy 6:4; while the idea of a compound unity is not completely denied by the statements above.

Finally, I want to make note of the fact of what it says in Ephesians 3:11. If you think on what this verse might mean in light of what I have spoken, you can gain insight into what I am saying.

Love in Christ,

justbyfaith
 
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justbyfaith

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In this view, it may be that God descended in order that He Himself might become the perfect High Priest (Hebrews 2:10); because no one else could ever be able to fully and completely, faithfully and perfectly, fulfill that position.
 

GodsGrace

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I believe that John 1:1 has as a parallel passage Ephesians 4:10.

God descended to become a Man, out of eternity into time, then ascended back out of time into eternity, to fill all things (and also transcended created time once again).

The pre-incarnate Christ (the Father) exists outside of time. The incarnate Christ (the Son) is a finite human being (while also being fully the Lord God; the Father incarnate...Isaiah 9:6) and bound to time. The after-incarnate Christ (the Holy Ghost) ascended to again be outside of time (Ephesians 4:10, Luke 23:46; see also 1 John 4:1-3, 2 John 1:7) and therefore exists as a distinct individual dwelling in eternity, outside of time. But the same Person (the eternal Spirit), yet distinct from the pre-incarnate Christ. The Holy Ghost also descends as often as He wills to come and dwell in believers; and He is the Person of the Trinity who does dwell in believers (2 Timothy 1:14). Yet, because He is in a sense the same Person as the Father and the Son (while also being distinct from the other Two), it can be said that the Father (Ephesians 4:6) and the Son (Colossians 1:27) also dwell in every believer. Yet the Bible teaches that there is one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4) and that God (the Father) is that Spirit (John 4:23-24). There is one Lord (Ephesians 4:5, 1 Corinthians 8:6) and God (the Father) is that Lord (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21; Acts of the Apostles 4:24, Mark 12:29 (kjv)). Yet no one can say that Jesus Christ of Nazareth is the Lord except by the Holy Ghost (1 Corinthians 12:3, Acts of the Apostles 4:10-12).

Thus, in John 1:1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Now the Word that was with God, in this scenario, would be the Father (for He was God); and the Word that was God (who was also with God); would be the Holy Ghost. The pre-incarnate Father is the One who became flesh. The Holy Ghost (the after-incarnate Father) did not have to become flesh because He had already been flesh.

Now when the pre-incarnate Father descends to become a Man, He is given the title Holy Ghost so that we may know that it is speaking of the same Person (in Luke 1:35). But truly it is the pre-incarnate Father who descends.

Now some may think that I am denying the Trinity in all of these statements. But I don't think that I am. I am attempting to refute Tritheism; which some people mistake the idea of the Trinity to actually mean.

And I am not promoting the concept of modalism either. Because while the Spirit inside of the human Jesus is the same Person as the Father (John 14:7-11), the human Jesus is not the Father in that the pre-incarnate Father's existence is outside of time: He inhabits eternity with him who is of a contrite and humble spirit (Isaiah 57:15). He is transcendent, Omnipresent, and in all and through all. The Father in the Son, on the other hand (being the same Person/God as the eternal Spirit, who is the Father, John 4:23-24, Ephesians 4:4) inhabits the human body of Jesus Christ: He is a finite human being in His humanity (1 John 4:1-3, 2 John 1:7)..

We must remember that God is one Spirit (John 4:23-24, Ephesians 4:4).

And Jesus, being God, is that Spirit (John 4:24) although He inhabits the human body of Jesus, which is made of flesh (again, 1 John 4:1-3, 2 John 1:7).

All of this is to defend the common definition of the word "One" in Deuteronomy 6:4; while the idea of a compound unity is not completely denied by the statements above.

Finally, I want to make note of the fact of what it says in Ephesians 3:11. If you think on what this verse might mean in light of what I have spoken, you can gain insight into what I am saying.

Love in Christ,

justbyfaith
Both you and @brakelite have given excellent explanations of the trinity or Godhead.

There is one paragraph I either don't agree with or which I do not understand.
Probably the later.

This is what you posted, which I've highlighted above in blue:

Now the Word that was with God, in this scenario, would be the Father (for He was God); and the Word that was God (who was also with God); would be the Holy Ghost. The pre-incarnate Father is the One who became flesh. The Holy Ghost (the after-incarnate Father) did not have to become flesh because He had already been flesh.

I'd have to say that the WORD IN the Father is Jesus, the Son or the 2nd person of the Trinity.

The Holy Spirit is the BREATH of God,,,as in Genesis 1.

Jesus is the WORD by virtue of John 1-14 and by His having created everything THROUGH the Word of God. Jesus became God's Word in the flesh.

The Holy Spirit is the breath of God, by the virtue of His having breathed life into Adam. Also, the Holy Spirit gives us life by dwelling with us.

Comment?


 

Harvest 1874

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Exactly. That is why we have the terms "the Mystery of God" and "the Mystery of Godliness" in Scripture. God cannot be fathomed by human beings, therefore we must believe what the Bible says without reservations. But the naysayers rely on their human *logic* to *prove* their false notions about God.

Sorry my friend but that's not faith, that's credulity and without faith (true faith which is based on proven facts) it is impossible to please God.
 

justbyfaith

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Both you and @brakelite have given excellent explanations of the trinity or Godhead.

There is one paragraph I either don't agree with or which I do not understand.
Probably the later.

This is what you posted, which I've highlighted above in blue:

Now the Word that was with God, in this scenario, would be the Father (for He was God); and the Word that was God (who was also with God); would be the Holy Ghost. The pre-incarnate Father is the One who became flesh. The Holy Ghost (the after-incarnate Father) did not have to become flesh because He had already been flesh.

I'd have to say that the WORD IN the Father is Jesus, the Son or the 2nd person of the Trinity.

The Holy Spirit is the BREATH of God,,,as in Genesis 1.

Jesus is the WORD by virtue of John 1-14 and by His having created everything THROUGH the Word of God. Jesus became God's Word in the flesh.

The Holy Spirit is the breath of God, by the virtue of His having breathed life into Adam. Also, the Holy Spirit gives us life by dwelling with us.

Comment?
My statement was based in the concept that the Father descended to become the Son (Isaiah 9:6). Therefore, the Word, that "later" (for lack of better terminology) became flesh (the Son) was the Father in His pre-incarnate form. The Word definitely is Jesus. I'm not disputing that one iota.
 
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GodsGrace

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My statement was based in the concept that the Father descended to become the Son (Isaiah 9:6). Therefore, the Word, that "later" (for lack of better terminology) became flesh (the Son) was the Father in His pre-incarnate form. The Word definitely is Jesus. I'm not disputing that one iota.
That's more clear.
Yes. It's not easy talking about this,,,but you did a great job of it.