Why Jews were Made, not Born

Dave L said:

Not so, God has only one people in Christ.

“He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.” (John 3:36)

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This has nothing to do with there being different bodies of believers

Stranger

Stranger said:

Faith is not the issue here. I never said Old Testament believers didn't have faith. We are talking about the operation of the Holy Spirit and how it worked distinct different between Israel and the Church. And the reason is because they were separate bodies of believers.

Stranger

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...not as believers. There is but one Body of Christ.

Episkopos said:

...not as believers. There is but one Body of Christ.

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There is one Body of Christ, yes, and that is the Church. And Israel is not the Church. She was and will be a different body. See my post (#41)

Stranger

Dave L said:

Whatever is not of faith = sin. Even helping old ladies for the wrong reason is sin.

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Of course that's false...and very religious. You are taking the verse out of context. For the believer...we are not to mix. But you can't impose a spiritual law on a person who has not been given the Spirit.

That would like asking a child with a tricycle for their driver's license and registration.

But a person with a car can indeed be stopped for these.

So then you need to not mix what is holy with the world. You are doing exactly what is wrong with the church today. Allowing iniquity and bad judgment to lower holiness and the call of God to COME out of the world. This is being done by pointing to unbelievers...and justifying yourself and saying...look at them.

But God is speaking to us...not them.

A believer only compares himself with unbelievers does this to both justify himself and to feel like he has a power....whereas he is just powerless and needs to pick on the weaker ones to feel powerful.

Dave L said:

“For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.” (1 Corinthians 12:13)

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Exactly right. Both believing Jew and Gentile today make up the Church. That doesn't make the Church Israel.

Stranger

Stranger said:

No, you are speaking of Israel, not the Church. The Church did not begin, could not begin until (Acts 2).

Stranger

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Or possibly, she (Israel/Saints) were dead in trespasses and sin and went into the grave (burial)and was raised by the resurrection power of God in Jesus Christ . She moves from death(the old covenant) into life eternal(the new). Glorified by her head which is Christ. It could be that simple and beautiful...just like you are buried and raised in Him; Israel is that woman dead in sin but raised and gloried by His power. She (his body) is now Spiritual. You won’t even consider she was a woman dead, buried and raised with Him...and this is the entering in to His body. Belief. His enemies are an inheritance to Christ who came while we were yet in sin. We are an inheritance. The Gentiles are an inheritance of Israel.

Isaiah 54:3
[3] For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited.

Jeremiah 16:19-21
[19] O Lord , my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit. [20] Shall a man make gods unto himself, and they are no gods? [21] Therefore, behold, I will this once cause them to know, I will cause them to know mine hand and my might; and they shall know that my name is The Lord .

2 Corinthians 3:7-10
[7] But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away (buried in death) [8] How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? [9] For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. [10] For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.

He has given Israel (those Old covenant Saints that went into bondage to be troddened underfoot) greater riches and glory than that of the Old covenant. The glory of man passes away. The glory of man’s good deeds of flesh. It was all made desolate....restored through One. No, I do not see how you divide.

Stranger said:

There is one Body of Christ, yes, and that is the Church. And Israel is not the Church. She was and will be a different body. See my post (#41)

Stranger

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The Body of Christ IS Israel...the Israel of God. read Hosea chapter 1.
Read Ez. 37.

There is but one flock.

Dave L said:

Whatever is not of faith = sin. Even helping old ladies for the wrong reason is sin.

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Who is judging the motive? You?

Dave L said:

Jesus IS Israel. How can his body not bee also?

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Jesus is an Israelite, and King of the Jews. See again post (#41). Different actions by the Holy Spirit is why Israel cannot be the Body of Christ.

Stranger

Dave L said:

Motive is everything. Only Christians can have the right motive.

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That is false. There are things that are done properly....even without power from heaven. Can a person fix a car properly...and yet not do it by faith? Can a person save a man's life and not be a believer?

Have you learned nothing from the story of the good Samaritan? If we were to replace the word Samaritan...with Muslim...would you go into a religious snit? But that's EXACTLY what Jesus would do. He would challenge the religious smug superior ones in this way....as I'm doing to you.

Dave L said:

That John sees Exod. 19:6 as fulfilled in the church indicates that the church now continues the true Israel as the inheritor of God’s promises and as His covenant people, while unbelieving Jews are described not as true Jews but as a synagogue of Satan (2:9).

Beale, G. K., & Campbell, D. H. (2015). Revelation: A Shorter Commentary (pp. 41–42). Grand Rapids, MI; Cambridge, U.K.: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.


“And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.” (Exodus 19:6)

“you yourselves, as living stones, are built up as a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood and to offer spiritual sacrifices that are acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.” (1 Peter 2:5)

“and has appointed us as a kingdom, as priests serving his God and Father—to him be the glory and the power for ever and ever! Amen.” (Revelation 1:6)

“You have appointed them as a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth.”” (Revelation 5:10)

“Blessed and holy is the one who takes part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.” (Revelation 20:6)

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Remember to give the Scripture reference when you make statements concerning a certain Scripture.

I never said the Church was not a priesthood also. It is. It just isn't the same body as Israel.

Stranger

Dave L said:

I assume you know from your own library the Greek and Hebrew definitions the entire church uses.

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That is not the point. I want to see the one you are using.

Stranger

Dave L said:

Physical unbelieving Israel is not biblical Israel. John says they are Antichrists because the don't believe Jesus the Messiah came in the flesh.

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Unbelieving Israel is not Israel. But believing Israel is Israel. And will be both physical and spiritual. Just as the Church will also be physical and spiritual. Just different bodies of believers.

Stranger