The Two Witnesses

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Christina

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Although I agree about the temple you can not ignore what the word says that God will send Elijah and it does not say the two lampstands are the two olive trees/ two wittness that maybe your opinion but we can not exclude scripture that does not suit our own ideas. It was in fact common knowledge to the Jews that Elijah must come its why they askedif John the baptist was Elijah Gods Word in the old testament and new clearly teach Elijah would be sent if you choose to ignore this fact than its not truth you are searching out.
 

samy

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"These (the two witnesses just mentioned in verse 3) ARE the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth." It is a simple fact that any two thing equal to the same thing are equal to each other. Where am I wrong here? samy
 

Christina

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20The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.the End candlesticks are churches I assume you agreeZec 4:11 ¶ Then answered I, and said unto him, What [are] these two olive trees upon the right [side] of the candlestick and upon the left [side] thereof? This is a question what are the two olive trees that stand on each side of candlestick these are obviously not the same things the olive trees stand beside the candlesticksZec 4:14 Then said he, These [are] the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earthjust because he was pleased with two churchs doesnt prove they are the anoited ones this is conjecture they could be or could not beBut then you have scripture clearly telling you that God will send Elijah So you cant just ignore that because you have decided it so. There are no contradictions in the word you cant throw out what doesnt fit.
 

Christina

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What do these olive trees dothey witnessthey stop the rain,they have power (churches are not given this power anywhere in scripture) where is your predestines or proof?they are hated for their testimonythey die they lay dead in the streetthey are resurrectedCould this stuff be attributed to churches? yes possibly but equally they could fit two men So you must go to other scripture to find out for sure you cant just say well sounds good to me. And Mal 4 clearly states that a man Elijah will be sent so that in itself rules out one church if one is a man there are not three witnesses So if one is a man the other is the same as we are told one each stands on each side of the candlesticks.
 

samy

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Concerning Elijah, read Luke 1:17. Gabriel said John fulfilled that Mal prophecy. That has nothing to do with the two witnesses. samy
 

setfree

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No temple to be rebuilt, according to Jesus, matt 24:1-2. Enoch is a grandfather of Abraham. Not properly a gentile. We should not speculate when Jesus tells us point blank that the two witnesses are the two lampstands that stand--and as a matter of fact in the book of revelation there are two lampstands that stand. Why struggle for some other answer. The first rule of hermeneutics is "if the plain sense makes sense seek no other sense!" samy
Matt. 24:1-2 says the temple will be destroyed, where does it say it will not be re-built?Rev. 11 speaks of a temple and those that worship therein.
 

Christina

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Concerning Elijah, read Luke 1:17. Gabriel said John fulfilled that Mal prophecy. That has nothing to do with the two witnesses. samy
Now on that you are 100% wrong going going forth in the spirit of Elijah is not the same thing that is just plain not what it says we it means Mat 11:14 And if ye will receive [it], this is Elias, which was for to come.Christ was not received so this was not ElijahThe Jews knew Elijha was prophicesed to come before the messiah So if theyhad accepted christ it would have been Elijha and it would have been over but they didnt of courseThis answers it directly. John the Baptist will go before Jesus, in the spirit and power that Elias had. This verse should draw our attention to the book of Malachi. The Old Testament closes with these verses.Malachi 4:5, 6 "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:" [6] "And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse." God promised that just before the great and dreadful day of the Lord, Elijah would return to earth and be seen by the people. So this verse in Luke did not say that John was Elijah, but that "he [John the Baptist] would go before Him [Jesus] in the spirit and the power of Elias".
 

HammerStone

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As kriss has already stated, Matthew 11:14 documents that IF John had been received, he would have been it. HOWEVER, his head ended up literally on a platter.Malachi 4:5
Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
It's not in the spirit of, it's Elijah himself, just as he appeared at the transfiguration. There are your two witnesses, in my belief. However, one certainly cannot remove Enoch, and I will admit that it is not entirely clear. However, having studied this on numerous occasions, I don't think you can make the two witnesses a body, church, or office.Zechariah 4:14
Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.
As kriss has also pointed out, they are separate from the seven candlesticks, therefore they obviously cannot be a church.Zechariah 14:2-3
And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof: And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.
 

samy

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My zealous Christian friends--Jesus said in Matthew 11:14 "And if you care to accept (it), he himself is Elijah, who is to come. He who has ears to hear let him hear." Good sense surely is not telling you that any persons level of belief was making the Lord Jesus or John the Baptist any more or less the Messiah or Elijah than they actually were and are? Careful here. Because I don't believe you have carefully considered what you are saying when you claim that Jesus meant "If you care to accept it" such acceptance amounted to acceptance of either Jesus as Messiah or John the Baptist as Elijah, and that such acceptace either falsified John the Baptist as Elijah and necessarily falsified Jesus as the Messiah. Here is a true example of what Jesus said on that occassion: An ignorant neighbor who knows nothing about jewels brings me a diamond, thinking to sell it to me as costume jewelry. I look at it with a hoop and see that it is valuable diamond. I offer him big money. I say, if you will accept it I will give you good money for that diamond. He says, no, its just glass. Are you saying that his belief either makes the stone glass or a diamond? That is certainly what it sounds like you are saying. samy
 

samy

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Adminstrator--you said the two witnesses are not called a body. Not so. When they are killed John says specifically that their "body" [singular] in the street of the great city (read my article again). Sorry I could not include footnotes. Of course translators have always seen necessary to help God out by making (body) a plural. Two people would need the word "bodies" here, not "body"--that does NOT WORK, as it certainly does with two churches. You could probably get a better take on what I see overall in the book of Revelation by going to my web site. It is at www.expressright.com. I know you will like my piece on the Error of Pretribulationism. samy
 

HammerStone

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Careful yourself my friend - the second advent has not yet occurred.Getting to what I meant by body, I meant body of people. I'm sorry if that was not clear, but I thought it would be.Secondly, and perhaps more importantly here, I'd really like know what you base "body" over "bodies" off of?
 

Christina

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My zealous Christian friends--Jesus said in Matthew 11:14 "And if you care to accept (it), he himself is Elijah, who is to come. He who has ears to hear let him hear." Good sense surely is not telling you that any persons level of belief was making the Lord Jesus or John the Baptist any more or less the Messiah or Elijah than they actually were and are? Careful here. Because I don't believe you have carefully considered what you are saying when you claim that Jesus meant "If you care to accept it" such acceptance amounted to acceptance of either Jesus as Messiah or John the Baptist as Elijah, and that such acceptace either falsified John the Baptist as Elijah and necessarily falsified Jesus as the Messiah. Here is a true example of what Jesus said on that occassion: An ignorant neighbor who knows nothing about jewels brings me a diamond, thinking to sell it to me as costume jewelry. I look at it with a hoop and see that it is valuable diamond. I offer him big money. I say, if you will accept it I will give you good money for that diamond. He says, no, its just glass. Are you saying that his belief either makes the stone glass or a diamond? That is certainly what it sounds like you are saying. samy
And if you read it says "IF" Christ was accepted John would have been in the spirit of Elijah anothers Words had Christ been accepted John would have servered to fulfill the prophecey of Elijha he was not accepted and was killed if you remember the Story. So your conclusion is wrong
 

samy

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Where does it say "if Christ was accepted?" Certainly doesn't clearly say that where you are quoting from...
 

samy

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"I have information for you, if you care to accept it, that John the Baptist is the Elijah spoken of by Malachi". This appears to be the obvious read.It seems very strained and awkward to read that Jesus is saying here, "If you accept me as Messiah then John the Baptist will become Elijah" Doesn't that seem like a leap to you too? samy
 

samy

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Revelation 11:8 (NA26)8 καὶ (and) τὸ (the) πτωμα (body-singular) αὐτων ἐπὶ της πλατείας της πόλεως της μεγάλης, ἥτις καλειται πνευματικως Σόδομα καὶ Άιγυπτος, ὅπου καὶ ὁ κύριος αὐτων ἐσταυρώθη. [1][1] Black, Matthew ; Martini, Carlo M. ; Metzger, Bruce M. ; Wikgren, Allen: The Greek New Testament. Third edition (Corrected). Federal Republic of Germany : United Bible Societies, 1983samy
 

Christina

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I dont know what else to say SamyI feel scripture completly disproves that the two churches are the two wittness'sas in the case I have laid out. Zec 4:11 ¶ Then answered I, and said unto him, What [are] these two olive trees upon the right [side] of the candlestick and upon the left [side] thereof? This is the answer to the question who are the two olive trees that stand on each side of candlestick which are the churchs as we are told these are obviously not the same things the olive trees stand beside the candlesticks(churches that combined with all other evendince makes your conclusion without support.There is no argument here scripture just doesnt support your conclusion.