John 14:6 means nothing then? Jesus is the only way to the Father.
Why is it OK for God to override their "free will" of rejecting Him to save them in the end?
Calvinism?
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John 14:6 means nothing then? Jesus is the only way to the Father.
Why is it OK for God to override their "free will" of rejecting Him to save them in the end?
You are making something very simple to be very confusing. What you are thinking of is a religious affiliation. God is NOT religious.
Which denomination does God belong to? How about Jesus?
Do you know who you are talking about?
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AHA...you now show your selfish motive. Are you a Christian because of a self-interest? Are you looking to save yourself?
A Christian is learning to rule with Christ...not just get "saved". The saints will rule over the saved nations in the next age. Read the bible carefully.
According to you it does not matter what you believe because God will save everyone in the end.
That's untrue and putting me in a box. I said God will have mercy on SOME. Just not according to your will...but His. Not according to your mercy...but His...not according to your understanding....but His.
Is that so hard to accept? I thought you believed in the sovereignty of God.
Does what you just quoted change that fact that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is good news? I believe it is good news to...all people, whom are receptive to the Holy Spirit's drawing and conviction of their sin unto repentance, leading unto-Salvation. We must just agree to disagree that only a select few are saved. I can only agree that, few shall enter into the gates of heaven. Many will choose the wide road..
Naomi25
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I think one of the main contentions about "election" comes from the very point you've raised...this idea of God "forcing" people to be 'in' him or not. But I think in this matter it is far, far more complex and deep than that, and therefore not as simple as just God "forcing" people to be in or out. We see in scripture that our God is a God who can uphold many things at the same time (for lack of a better way to put it) that are complex in nature and difficult for us to understand. The Trinity, for example. We know, for instance, that God exists in three persons, but is still only one God. How this can be is a bit of a mystery to us, but the doctrine is painted quite clearly. Another example is prophecy. One would think that the prophecy's God gives in the OT are set: what he predicts come to pass, right? Well, yes and no! They are, in some ways, conditional. He allows room for human choice to interact with them. He says; "if you do not, here is what will happen." And so if the people listen and obey, that prophecy will not come to pass.
I think when we come to something like election we must approach it in a similar way. Does God foreknow us? Yes. Is it part of his plan for some of us to come to him and others not? Yes. But do we still have the choice to say yes or no? Yes, I believe so. How can this be? Well...how is it that God caused Pharaoh's heart to be hardened (Ex 4:21, 7:3, Rom 9:17) but also Pharaoh caused his own heart to be hardened at the same time (Ex 8:32, Ex 8:15)? I'm not a scholar, and I'm hardly an expert, but I'd have to say this is one of those issues where God is holding out both things at the same time. In fact, I would content that perhaps the very nature of the sort of free will he has given us is what sees his purpose of election filled. Consider in the circumstance of Pharaoh: the more Moses and God 'pleaded' with him to let the Israelite's go...the more they showed him he did, in fact, have the choice to set them free, the more he hardened his heart against God's purposes.
Have you not experienced such a thing before? The more you try and love someone, give them a bit of space in their choices, the more belligerent and angry they become? It's like the love and freedom to move you are giving them is infuriating them. It's bizarre, but observable.
Anyway, I'm not at all sure I've explained that in a way that is coherent, but I did my best! I hope you get my gist!.
Naomi25
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Hi! That was actually a quote from the article that Nancy referred us to in the OP. I'm in your court!
Naomi25
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I think "lack of free will" is a term that doesn't really do justice to the election debate. Even those who call themselves Calvinists don't believe we're little marionettes jerking around on God's strings. It doesn't work like that. God doesn't work like that.
But I have to confess my utter bafflement here...please excuse my bemusement here! It always tickles me when Christians complain about election. Aren't you, in essence, complaining about God having picked you? Is it so important that you had to have picked God? Do we care? As long as we're saved and on God's team, can't we just revel in the fact that we aren't left on the bench??
That's not even the issue. The issue is whether it is consistent with the character of God and Christ and the Gospel to teach that God elects some for salvation and others for damnation.
Election and predestination are clearly revealed in the Bible, but totally misunderstood and misrepresented by Calvinists. Election is for the future perfection and glorification of the saints, not for salvation. See Romans 8:29,30.
Naomi25
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Forgive me, but it sort of was the issue, and I was only attempting to address it lightly. I was responding to the comment "Lack of free will" in a post, and there has been numerous sentiments of that sort...that they do not like "Calvinism" because of the idea that God yanks our choices away from us.
As far as it goes, I actually agree, that that in, and of, itself is not really the main issue, but as many were focusing on that, I felt a comment on how bizarre I found it was apt. And it is, don't you think? You never hear non-Christians complaining about election, only saved people. The fact that they can't get around "who" did the initial choice, putting aside doctrinal issues, strikes me as befuddling. We're in! Why complain? Do we need to complain WHO bought us a lotto ticket that won us a zillion dollars? Whether we bought it, or if it was gifted to us? It's ours, isn't it?
Anyway, it just strikes me as strange. That was all I was trying to point out. If you want to get into the deeper, more important theological issues surrounding the issue, and they're there, then sure...but that was not my intent in that post.
Yes Naomi, you were very coherent and, your post does move my gray matter into undiscovered thoughts in my mind. The hardening of Pharaohs heart has been disturbing to me from the beginning, all those years ago. Since then, at first I just tried to put it out of my mind. Then, as I could not let it go I searched and prayed about it. I did get a peace about it although I still did not fully understand it. I kind of see it now that since Pharaoh was hardening his own heart anyhow, God just ramped it up a bit, possibly out of anger towards Pharaoh? Or, to get the show on the road, so to speak, lol. Hey, even though God does not live in the realm of time does not mean He does not have a timeline, lol! I dunno but, good post, thank you!
H. Richard
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IMHO I think God elected that those who would place their belief, faith, trust, and confidence in Jesus' work on the cross would be saved.
That's the thing, "my emotions tell me it can't be, so it must not be true." I understand at first it is a hard reality to swallow but God makes no effort to hide it and He does not need man to save Him from a "bad reputation".
"What should we say then? Is there injustice with God? Absolutely not!" Rom. 9:14
"You will say to me, therefore, "Why then does He still find fault? For who can resist His will?" But who are you, a mere man, to talk back to God? Will what is formed say to the One who formed it, "Why did you make me like this?" Or has the potter no right over the clay, to make from the same lump one piece of pottery for honor and another for dishonor? Rom. 9:19-21
What was the purpose of Pharaoh? God says He raise him up for this very reason so that God would display His power (God shows mercy to those He wants to, and He hardens those wants to harden (Rom. 9:17-18). You mentioned that God probably did it to get the "show on the road", if you believe that then you believe that God can at times remove the "free will" from individuals.
Election bothers people more because it itches at the emotions and what view as "fair" and don't you dare mess with someone's free will, but at the same time those who reject this truth pray to God for their unsaved friends/loved ones, "God move their heart. opened their eyes" isn't that a violation of their free will? Who are you to move on their behalf? Oh no, that's different. We all recognize deep down that God is the One who must act first.
I hear more arguing on election than when God commanded the killing of women and children. Eliminate them all Joshua, don't leave a single soul living. #GodIsAllLove
I will respond to only one part of your post as I have already heard all of those arguments many, many times and know where I stand.
As far as praying for ones salvation, no, we cannot do that BUT...I DO pray for God to remove any obstacles that stand in the way between them and the Truth. I pray they would be sent an insatiable hunger and thirst for His Truth.This is a prayer I had prayed for one of my sisters for the last almost 4 years. And, that He would bring her to her knees...and did He ever! She is now attending services with me every Sunday, and she is actually PRAISING the Lord! She has attended for the last 4-6 weeks now, and that, was answer to my prayer...we are to pray until God, in His time and in His will, answers us as, He always does. And, if we pray His will...we will ALWAYS get an answer.
Going to be blunt here and very personal here:
I am victim of childhood sexual assault. The type that people write nightmare books about.
I have a MAJOR problem with the idea of a being (any being) forcing their will upon another. God did not create some people to force his will upon, and some to just throw in the fire. God does not just love a portion of mankind and die for just a portion of mankind. Rather, He dies for ALL mankind, and offers His gift to ALL mankind. And each person has their own choice whether to accept Him/His gift or to reject it. That is love: to offer a gift, not force.
I respect everyone has the right to believe how/what they do. I'm not attacking that at all, and please do not take my words as an attack here. Just sharing my beliefs.
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"Aren't you, in essence, complaining about God having picked you? Is it so important that you had to have picked God? Do we care?"
The only thing about your post that I will take issue with is that, I DO care because, if you think about the implications involved here, how can you not care about the un-saved. Especially your family and friends-loved ones. It kinda reminds me of "I got mine, so who cares". Please do not take this as an attack, this is my largest issue with that doctrine. We cannot pray someone into salvation, but we can pray for God to open their spiritual eyes. ♥
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