A Woman's role within the Body:

Episkopos · Sep 27, 2018

"ByGrace" said:
I find that you are mixing up the natural with the spiritual here.
And it confuses the issue.

...or the married and single?

This is a Christian forum.

If it was a wrestling forum I would be talking about taking down an opponent with a certain move, perhaps.

But this is about God's design. So it works when applied....to any and all. It's just that Christians are supposed to exemplify what we read about in the bible.

Helen · Sep 27, 2018

VictoryinJesus said:
I guess this is why women aren’t supposed to teach...I do have emotions.

When a female is preaching or teaching under the anointing of The Holy Spirit...is 'she' male or female???

If you are resting on emotions then you are still choosing to identify flesh and not The Spirit.
Are you a person of the flesh or a person of the Spirit....?
"A double minded man is unstable in all his ways "

We either believe what Paul taught , that "we are dead and our true life is hid with Christ in God "...or we don't.
If we don't lock this down and renew our minds , then we will always be tossed around by the Enemy.

Bless you..from a nagging old lady

VictoryinJesus · Sep 27, 2018

"ByGrace" said:
When a female is preaching or teaching under the anointing of The Holy Spirit...is 'she' male or female???

If you are resting on emotions then you are still choosing to identify flesh and not The Spirit.
Are you a person of the flesh or a person of the Spirit....?
"A double minded man is unstable in all his ways "

We either believe what Paul taught , that "we are dead and our true life is hid with Christ in God "...or we don't.
If we don't lock this down and renew our minds , then we will always be tossed around by the Enemy.

Bless you..from a nagging old lady

I do value a nagging old lady’s advice

. And agree up unto a point and the reason for OP: For instance the verse for wives to be in obedience to their husbands. Of course spiritually, the body of Christ is to be in obedience to Him. And even though there is neither Greek nor Jew, neither male or female...in being obedient to our husband through this, the wife of one husband demonstrates to the world and the rest of the church body...Christ. Maybe I’m wrong but I don’t think anyone would tell me to be disobedient to my husband, because that certainly would not benefit my marriage, my family, or display (life) Christ as Head over our home. That passage I can live with. It makes sense even though it is not easy to do. But what about the other verses about a woman’s role? Do we not still demonstrate Christ when we fulfill the roles He has placed us in? If His commands are good...are not these commands also good? Don’t get me wrong ByGrace...I’m not saying there is gender in Spirit but only that He told us these things for a reason ...maybe for less confusion. Just as we make a marriage covenant ...we demonstrate Him in our relationships. We wouldn’t say there is no need to marry since there is no gender in Spirit and each is joined to Christ...but we know marriage demonstrates Him to the world and it is less confusion. Thank you again...I’m just studying...

Enoch111 · Sep 27, 2018

VictoryinJesus said:
First this verse is confusing because, as a woman and wife I am no longer Judged by the law but rather Judged by Christ.

You have properly grasped the Bible's teaching of the role of women in the assembly (gathering) of believers, as well as in the home.

When Paul says "as also saith the law", he does not mean that you are judged by the law, but in this case it means the Torah (the Law of Moses, or the first five books of Moses), also called simply "the Law".

Wives are to be in subjection to their husbands as taught in Gen 3:16, and as illustrated by Sarah (1 Peter 3):
1 Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;
2 While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear.
3 Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;
4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible,even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.
5 For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:
6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.

Paul takes this as the basis for the silence of women in the churches. Women are forbidden to preach, teach, or assume authority within the local church. So you are correct in concluding that women may teach other women, and primarily about being good Christian wives and mothers (as taught in the NT).

There are many churches which are in violation of these teachings, having been influenced by evangelical Feminism.

bbyrd009 · Sep 27, 2018

VictoryinJesus said:
I guess this is why women aren’t supposed to teach...I do have emotions.

plenty of men channelling their woman in the pulpit i guess

Nancy · Sep 27, 2018

I think it had allot to do with the culture in Jesus time. Women were considered lesser than men and, I think that is why they were not chosen in the 12 because, most Jews back then would not give them a second look. But then, how do we reconcile the scripts. about the "order of the church"...pastors, elders, deacons and such...this is a study I am sure must have been done many times over, lol...think I will look into it!

Enoch111 · Sep 28, 2018

Nancy said:
I think it had allot to do with the culture in Jesus time.

It is not Jesus who was influenced by the culture, since He is the one who has influenced cultures.

God has embedded eternal principles in Scripture, and they reflect the eternal relationship of Christ and His Wife (the Church, the Lamb's wife).

Nancy · Sep 28, 2018

Enoch111 said:
It is not Jesus who was influenced by the culture, since He is the one who has influenced cultures.

God has embedded eternal principles in Scripture, and they reflect the eternal relationship of Christ and His Wife (the Church, the Lamb's wife).

I was talking about the fact that no MAN in that time would listen to a woman about the things about God!

Episkopos · Sep 28, 2018

Nancy said:
I was talking about the fact that no MAN in that time would listen to a woman about the things about God!

Even the disciples didn't believe the women's report from the tomb-site at first. But then they were not understanding the miraculous power of grace yet.

With God....ALL things are possible.

quietthinker · Sep 29, 2018

VictoryinJesus said:
I've been struggling the past couple of days with 1 Corinthians 14:33-35. It doesn't offend like it once did when I first came to Him. "For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. [34] Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. [35] And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

First this verse is confusing because, as a woman and wife I am no longer Judged by the law but rather Judged by Christ. For me, the church is not within a building but I fully accept church as anywhere and anytime the body gathers together in His name. Whether it be three or more. So, I am to keep silence when the body gathers and ask my husband at home. Silence always when the body gathers?? That is a lot to ask. Almost, nearly impossible. But Paul seems to say it is profitable to abide in this.

I do realize there is a spiritual meaning here in that each one of us when joined unto the body...become the woman(the Proverbs woman) under submission to Her Head which is Christ. We have all, all those no longer under the Old Covenant of works in the flesh have been "beheaded" for His name's sake. Consider the profound imagery of John as his way(man's way) decreases for Christ...who IS the way to increase. Matthew 14:10-12 "And he sent, and beheaded John in the prison. [11] And his head was brought in a charger, and given to the damsel: and she brought it to her mother. [12] And his disciples came, and took up the body, and buried it, and went and told Jesus."

The Spiritual application of all women remaining silent within the churches and asking their husband at home becomes (Men and Women) of the bride in submission to (their)head of the body; is to remains silent and ask of their husband at home. No doubt many martyrs have been beheaded for His name sake but even in doing so, it was not the open display of their eagerness to suffer pain but their eagerness to declare submission to their head which is GOD. Not all are martyrs physically, but we all are "beheaded" for the sake of the gospel and given a new Head which is Christ. The Old Covenant as Head is cutoff in sight of a better way, a better Covenant which is Christ. As John the Baptist knew this temporal imprisonment and beheading took on a whole new level of allegiance to the Spiritual in "I must decrease". Revelation 20:4 "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given
unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

What does that have to do with A Woman and silence in the churches? In 1 Timothy 2:12-15
the word says, "But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. [13] For Adam was first formed, then Eve. [14] And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. [15] Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety."

Again, I can see this fully demonstrates the body of Christ's submission to its Head in not usurping authority over Christ and allowing Him( the Spirit) to teach rather than the flesh. Zechariah 2:13 "Be silent, O all flesh, before the Lord : for he is raised up out of his holy habitation." The Woman being saved in childbearing through Christ.

So, this morning I think I have my confirmation. I've been feeling for sometime now that God is leading me to write solely for women and to participate in workshops for women and if I am going to teach...it will be to teach women to love their husbands and children including (Christ and His body also). Again, I realize that the above verses have spiritual meaning and purpose but that doesn't mean there is not a better way in abiding in them. What is the struggle then? It may mean backing away from the forum since I do not know where posting and debating scripture with men fits within those verses and a woman's role to Her Head.

I'm not familiar with the literacy level of women in Paul's time but is it possible that it was lower than mens?
My guess re Paul's pronouncements here is that the women were possibly prattling in ignorance. I can't imagine him shutting down a woman who has something thoughtful to contribute particularly after saying we are all equal in Christ or just because her sex is female.

Personally, I have encountered many men who in keeping silent would do themselves a favour rather than shooting their mouths off with poor information.

It would be a loss if you backed off ViJ. I have come to look forward to your contributions and your willingness to get a handle on whatever the truth of a matter may be is a breath of fresh air.

VictoryinJesus · Sep 29, 2018

quietthinker said:
I'm not familiar with the literacy level of women in Paul's time but is it possible that it was lower than mens?
My guess re Paul's pronouncements here is that the women were possibly prattling in ignorance. I can't imagine him shutting down a woman who has something thoughtful to contribute particularly after saying we are all equal in Christ or just because her sex is female.

Personally, I have encountered many men who in keeping silent would do themselves a favour rather than shooting their mouths off with poor information.

It would be a loss if you backed off ViJ. I have come to look forward to your contributions and your willingness to get a handle on whatever the truth of a matter may be is a breath of fresh air.

Your kind words are greatly appreciated. I do get what you and the others are saying about being One in and under Spirit(Christ). This is a very difficult topic for me because, not to open a harsh subject, I must consider how being one in Spirit does not neglect God’s great design. Marriage is husband and wife...and when the world adopts and pushes even it can be wife and wife or husband and husband ...it causes confusion and takes away from the display of His design in perfection as one husband as head and one wife in the following of her head. In this we are moving away from His design. So, I have to consider all the word and ask if I’m walking contrary to His ways because although I’m secure in Him and His work...I do want to please Him.

Consider:Leviticus 26:27-29 “And if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me; [28] Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins. [29] And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat.” To me this curse means to eat of the flesh of your children...reeping what is sown...wow. Before coming to Him and turning to Him; I sowed of the flesh in abundance and as my children grew up, they also sowed of the flesh. This is maybe harder to swallow then sowing your own corruption. How many today have grown children living with them; disjunctional and consumed by sowing and reeping flesh. I’ve have eaten of the flesh of my children and the sorrow of its fruit until I was sick and had my fill of eating the flesh. Eating and being consumed and nonproductive in all my ways. But it has changed. I’ve seen God heal my children so this curse of eating the flesh of your sons and daughters ...is no more. I hope that makes sense; what I want more than anything is to walk with God...not contrary to Him.

bbyrd009 · Sep 29, 2018

Nancy said:
I was talking about the fact that no MAN in that time would listen to a woman about the things about God!

i'm thinking when Ruth talked, men listened

bbyrd009 · Sep 29, 2018

quietthinker said:
My guess re Paul's pronouncements here is that the women were possibly prattling in ignorance.

imo Paul is using the occasion of some women either contesting a sermon or being too social during one to forward a spiritual principle, seems like the majority believe the first one is more likely and that the charge was impertinence rather than gender? Considered in light of no male or female in Christ though, the story gains added dimensions, and becomes a story about a single ego imo; much depends upon how one defines "Church" i think

bbyrd009 · Sep 29, 2018

quietthinker said:
Personally, I have encountered many men who in keeping silent would do themselves a favour rather than shooting their mouths off with poor information.

so spiritually speaking, women

quietthinker said:
It would be a loss if you backed off ViJ. I have come to look forward to your contributions and your willingness to get a handle on whatever the truth of a matter may be is a breath of fresh air.

spiritually speaking, a man
imo
no male or female in Christ iow

Nancy · Sep 29, 2018

bbyrd009 said:
i'm thinking when Ruth talked, men listened

Lol Mark, I was speaking in general. And, I do believe there is somewhere in the N.C. that has a woman correcting one of Jesus disciples. Cannot remember where though...

bbyrd009 · Sep 29, 2018

Nancy said:
I was talking about the fact that no MAN in that time would listen to a woman about the things about God!

Episkopos said:
Even the disciples didn't believe the women's report from the tomb-site at first

there is some kind of lesson on hearing here, i think.

Most men right now or then won't listen to the things of God coming from men even, right, so while no MAN in that time would listen to a woman about the things about God is true, we can really remove the time factor and the gender factor both i guess?

bbyrd009 · Sep 29, 2018

Nancy said:
Lol Mark, I was speaking in general. And, I do believe there is somewhere in the N.C. that has a woman correcting one of Jesus disciples. Cannot remember where though...

Junia, maybe? Down the list, a woman correcting one of Jesus disciples - Google Search

and yes, i agree with you, and don't mean for the exception of Ruth the cloud your point, so much as suggest a perspective change that is just being suggested to me, right now, that i am not even getting yet really, something in the post above

it's forming up as, essentially, we do not listen to women bc they are more likely to be speaking the truth
something like that
we often listen to women like we might to a little kid, iow

Nancy · Sep 29, 2018

bbyrd009 said:
Junia, maybe? Down the list, a woman correcting one of Jesus disciples - Google Search

and yes, i agree with you, and don't mean for the exception of Ruth the cloud your point, so much as suggest a perspective change that is just being suggested to me, right now, that i am not even getting yet really, something in the post above

it's forming up as, essentially, we do not listen to women bc they are more likely to be speaking the truth
something like that
we often listen to women like we might to a little kid, iow

"...right now, that i am not even getting yet really, something in the post above" Can you expound on this?
"we often listen to women like we might to a little kid, iow"
Yes, many men in my old church were like this to women, almost as if they were humoring us. Hence, I just kept my mouth shut during the Sunday School. But, not until after I asked a question he did not seem to care for, and pretty much brushed aside. There was a slew of stuff I had been willing to overlook at that church because I knew enough by that time to keep my eyes on Jesus, always and not to men. So, as a result of lack of fellowship there...I now am blessed to attend a place that has a whole different atmosphere, where I am comfortable the second I step foot in there AND...where I have make more friends in the last month, six weeks than in the 2.5 years at the other place. GOD LEADS IF WE FOLLOW ♥

bbyrd009 · Sep 29, 2018

Nancy said:
Can you expound on this?

well, the statements below are helping

Nancy said:
Yes, many men in my old church were like this to women, almost as if they were humoring us.

so then pretty much a valid statement about men's treatment of women in the world, and again i am led to reflect upon any exceptions that break the mold

Nancy said:
I asked a question he did not seem to care for, and pretty much brushed aside.

which may have been all the Ephesian women were doing, not sure, but i don't think so, these women were spiritually out of line, elaborate hairdos etc, but i am even finding the set-up v kind of interesting,
6who gave Himself--a ransom for all, a testimony at the proper time.
8Therefore, I want the men in every place to pray, lifting up holy hands without anger or argument.
9Also, the women are to dress themselves in modest clothing, with decency and good sense, not with elaborate hairstyles, gold, pearls, or expensive apparel,
10but with good works, as is proper for women who affirm that they worship God.
14And Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and transgressed.

Paul does not want women to pray?
men don't have to worry about modest clothing?
good works are not proper for men?
Adam was not deceived?

Helen · Sep 29, 2018

Nancy said:
"...right now, that i am not even getting yet really, something in the post above" Can you expound on this?
"we often listen to women like we might to a little kid, iow"
Yes, many men in my old church were like this to women, almost as if they were humoring us. Hence, I just kept my mouth shut during the Sunday School. But, not until after I asked a question he did not seem to care for, and pretty much brushed aside. There was a slew of stuff I had been willing to overlook at that church because I knew enough by that time to keep my eyes on Jesus, always and not to men. So, as a result of lack of fellowship there...I now am blessed to attend a place that has a whole different atmosphere, where I am comfortable the second I step foot in there AND...where I have make more friends in the last month, six weeks than in the 2.5 years at the other place. GOD LEADS IF WE FOLLOW ♥

Glad to hear that you are enjoying the group that you are with now.
We tried many here...but we never 'clicked' in any of them.

I agree with your post earlier , that Paul was speaking about the times he was in.
Women on one side and the men sitting on the other...and a woman shouting across to her husband asking a question.

When people insist about women being the inferior part...
I remember that Eve was part of Adam...formed from his rib!!
And it says .." And he called their name Adam"

In the first creation account Gen 1:26-27 the text in the Hebrew says that God created ‘adam’ (which is really just a play on the word ‘adamah’ meaning earth/ground/dust) in His Image. It goes on to say that he created this ‘earth/human being’ or ‘adam’ as both male (zakar) and female (neqebah). So here in the opening chapter of Genesis we have ‘adam’ referring to the entire human race both male and female, not just the male half.

A Woman's role within the Body:

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