EZ 38-39 TIMELINE

Heb 13:8 · Sep 30, 2018

Vexatious said:
Why don't you take it up with Nancy.

2 Peter 3:3-7 New King James Version (NKJV)
3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, 6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. 7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Jay Ross · Sep 30, 2018

Heb 13:8 said:
I did, Rev chapter 12 is a description of the 70th week starting with harpazo rapture in Rev 12:5. The word harpazo is found in 1 Thess 4:17, Rev 12:5.

I am sorry, but your above statement is wrong. While the two Greek words found in 1 Thess 4:17 and Rev 12:5 have embedded in them the same Greek root, they are in fact two very different words.

In 1 Thess 4:17 it has the Greek word ἁρπαγησόμεθα, harpagēsometha, while in Rev 12:5, it has the Greek word ἡρπάσθη,
hērpasthē which both contain the Greek Root G:0726 ἁρπάζω, harpazó embedded within them.

In both instances, the respective Greek word only appears in that verse.

In Thess 4:17 the saints are caught up to Christ in the clouds whereas in Rev 15:5 the man child is caught up to God in Heaven. The described outcomes are very different and as such both do not describe the rapture as you are attempting to indicate.

Shalom

Heb 13:8 · Sep 30, 2018

Jay Ross said:
I am sorry, but your above statement is wrong. While the two Greek words found in 1 Thess 4:17 and Rev 12:5 have embedded in them the same Greek root, they are in fact two very different words.

In 1 Thess 4:17 it has the Greek word ἁρπαγησόμεθα, harpagēsometha, while in Rev 12:5, it has the Greek word ἡρπάσθη,
hērpasthē which both contain the Greek Root G:0726 ἁρπάζω, harpazó embedded within them.

In both instances, the respective Greek word only appears in that verse.

In Thess 4:17 the saints are caught up to Christ in the clouds whereas in Rev 12:5 the man child is caught up to God in Heaven. The described outcomes are very different and as such both do not describe the rapture as you are attempting to indicate.

Shalom

Was caught up and was caught away are both describing the rapture Jay. What did you think would happen after rapture, that we would remain in the clouds for seven years?? No, our citizenship is in heaven. Shalom.

Enoch111 · Sep 30, 2018

Vexatious said:
Jesus' sermon the Tribulation doesn't' say anything about a New Heavens and a New Earth. But, if I were to defend that position, I'd point out that in Christ, the old has passed away and all things have become new.

Well here's the thing.

"All things have become new" is only for the believers who are "new creatures in Christ" ("If any man be in Christ"). So that is totally out of context as related to this subject.

After the Tribulation and the Great Tribulation (Rev 6-18) we have the second coming of Christ (Rev 19) and the millennial reign of Christ (Rev 20), followed by the Great White Throne Judgment (Rev 20) and finally the New Heavens and the New Earth (Rev 21,22), "to bring in everlasting righteousness".

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. (Dan 9:24)

You said Daniel's 70th week was fulfilled in the 1st century. If that was indeed the case then all of the above would have been fulfilled. So according to your bizarre theory, all of this must have already taken place already. Yet we find all the heavenly bodies still where they belong, and we find that sin and evil is INCREASING on this earth. So do you see how completely fanciful is the Preterist interpretation of Scripture???

BTW calling Dispensationalism every kind of evil name is just like Fake News, and does nothing for your case. It is PURE PROPAGANDA.

Vexatious · Sep 30, 2018

Enoch111 said:
"All things have become new" is only for the believers who are "new creatures in Christ" ("If any man be in Christ"). So that is totally out of context as related to this subject.

"All things" would include the heavens and earth. Yes, only for the believer. "New Heavens and a New Earth" is not literal, any more than a believer is literally a new creation. Do you think when you were saved, you literally got a new body?

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. (Dan 9:24)

You said Daniel's 70th week was fulfilled in the 1st century. If that was indeed the case then all of the above would have been fulfilled. So according to your bizarre theory, all of this must have already taken place already.

Jesus brought everlasting righteousness to those who have faith in him. And, check you calendar, the 70 weeks ended in the first century.

BTW calling Dispensationalism every kind of evil name is just like Fake News, and does nothing for your case. It is PURE PROPAGANDA.

In foreign policy, what have Dispensationalists ever done to advance the credibility of Christians or to advance peace (other than claiming claiming shooting people brings peace)?

Truth · Sep 30, 2018

Vexatious said:
The abomination of desolation was the Roman army (Luke 21:20) that desolated Jerusalem in 70 AD (Luke 21:32). There is no third temple (where's your verse stating a third temple will be built, and where does it fit into Luke 21?). Daniel's 70 Weeks came to an end in the first century, do the math. Can we move past the Antichristian insanity of Dispensationalism that has so burdened the church in the last few decades?

STOP IT!

You quote four verses, and not a one of them even remotely supports your claims.

Have you ever read the book's of the Maccabees? It should have never been removed from the Bible, for it is an important piece of History.
I will give the Catholic's credit, it remain's in their Bible!

Dave L · Oct 1, 2018

Heb 13:8 said:
I believe God actually placed the timing of this war into scripture, via the birds at the great supper of God at the end of the 70th week. (Ez 39:4, Rev 19:17-18)

1. Ez 38 begins at the abomination of desolation
2. Peace and safety in first 3.5 years allows Israel to be with unwalled villages
3. Peace and safety in first 3.5 years gives Israel the decision to rebuild the third temple
4. Ez 38 is this sudden destruction in 1 Thess 5:3 at the abomination of desolation
5. Ez 39 takes place at the end of the 70th week
6. The birds eat the flesh of the dead bodies left after Ez 39 is over
7. Ez 39:2-4 comes prior to Ez 39:9
8. So Israel burns weapons for the first 7 years of the 1000 yr reign

Ez 38:11-12 You will say, “I will invade a land of unwalled villages; I will attack a peaceful and unsuspecting people—all of them living without walls and without gates and bars. 12I will plunder and loot and turn my hand against the resettled ruins and the people gathered from the nations, rich in livestock and goods, living at the center of the land. ”

Ez 39:2-4 I will turn you around and drag you along. I will bring you from the far north and send you against the mountains of Israel. 3Then I will strike your bow from your left hand and make your arrows drop from your right hand. 4On the mountains of Israel you will fall, you and all your troops and the nations with you. I will give you as food to all kinds of carrion birds and to the wild animals.

Rev 19:17-18 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

Ez 39:9 “ ‘Then those who live in the towns of Israel will go out and use the weapons for fuel and burn them up—the small and large shields, the bows and arrows, the war clubs and spears. For seven years they will use them for fuel.

So, Gog and Magog are going to attack Israel with spears and wooden shields on horseback to steal their cattle? This is what Ezekiel says, he doesn't mention anything people read into the passage today.

Dave L · Oct 1, 2018

Nancy said:
"For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." Matthew 24:21
Well, if THIS already happened-I will eat my hat.

In the siege of Jerusalem, mothers ate their young and they impaled Jews on crosses as far as the eye could see. Read Josephus, the Jewish historian who documented these and other horrors of God's wrath on the unbelieving Jews.

Nancy · Oct 1, 2018

Dave L said:
In the siege of Jerusalem, mothers ate their young and they impaled Jews on crosses as far as the eye could see. Read Josephus, the Jewish historian who documented these and other horrors of God's wrath on the unbelieving Jews.

Yes, the Jews have suffered terribly from, time immemorial! As was prophesied. All of the things you mention above are horrendous but, no more horrendous than how 'people' abuse other 'people' today. How I see the end is the power of GOD working to destroy, and isn't any man/men alive or ever will be that can top THAT kind of destruction.

Dave L · Oct 1, 2018

Nancy said:
Yes, the Jews have suffered terribly from, time immemorial! As was prophesied. All of the things you mention above are horrendous but, no more horrendous than how 'people' abuse other 'people' today. How I see the end is the power of GOD working to destroy, and isn't any man/men alive or ever will be that can top THAT kind of destruction.

Jesus said there would be no greater tribulation than what happened in 70 AD, not even today.

“For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.” (Matthew 24:21) This isn't speaking about the future. When Jesus returns it will be as in the days of Noah. People marrying and giving in marriage. Much like today.

If there is a 7 year tribulation in the future, then you know Jesus will return 7 years later. And only the Father knows the time of his return.

Vexatious · Oct 1, 2018

Dave L said:
So, Gog and Magog are going to attack Israel with spears and wooden shields on horseback to steal their cattle? This is what Ezekiel says, he doesn't mention anything people read into the passage today.

Of people who claim to take the Bible literally, no one takes the Bible less literally than Dispensationalists. And, when they do take it literally, it's as if their goal is to mock the Bible by taking blatantly symbolic and figurative speech literally.

Nancy · Oct 1, 2018

Dave L said:
Jesus said there would be no greater tribulation than what happened in 70 AD, not even today.

“For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.” (Matthew 24:21) This isn't speaking about the future. When Jesus returns it will be as in the days of Noah. People marrying and giving in marriage. Much like today.

If there is a 7 year tribulation in the future, then you know Jesus will return 7 years later. And only the Father knows the time of his return.

What happened in 70 AD was by and through people. People destroyed Jerusalem. Do you really think that mere humans can do more powerful destruction than the God of the universe? HIS mighty power to destroy the earth and all the evil in it??

Vexatious · Oct 1, 2018

Nancy said:
What happened in 70 AD was by and through people. People destroyed Jerusalem. Do you really think that mere humans can do more powerful destruction than the God of the universe? HIS mighty power to destroy the earth and all the evil in it??

Nancy, you say 70 AD was the work of people, and you say people are not more powerful than God. How did people destroy the Temple in 70 AD, was it with God or against God?

God used the Romans to destroy Jerusalem and the Jews, the children of Satan, as punishment for killing Jesus. That was the Tribulation Jesus warned about. God said he would have destroyed the Jews long before that if he hadn't promised to deliver Christ through line of David.

Enoch111 · Oct 1, 2018

Vexatious said:
Of people who claim to take the Bible literally, no one takes the Bible less literally than Dispensationalists. And, when they do take it literally, it's as if their goal is to mock the Bible by taking blatantly symbolic and figurative speech literally.

You are living up to your username. This is both vexatious and untrue. So why have you come here to speak lies? And why would a Christian choose to call himself "vexatious"?
vex·a·tious
vekˈsāSHəs/
adjective

causing or tending to cause annoyance, frustration, or worry.
"the vexatious questions posed by software copyrights"
- LAW
  denoting an action or the bringer of an action that is brought without sufficient grounds for winning, purely to cause annoyance to the defendant.

Nancy · Oct 1, 2018

Vexatious said:
Nancy, you say 70 AD was the work of people, and you say people are not more powerful than God. How did people destroy the Temple in 70 AD, was it with God or against God?

God used the Romans to destroy Jerusalem and the Jews, the children of Satan, as punishment for killing Jesus. That was the Tribulation Jesus warned about. God said he would have destroyed the Jews long before that if he hadn't promised to deliver Christ through line of David.

The Tribulation Jesus warned about was that there was never and never will again be such wrath seen among men. There is a difference in our day to day 'tribulations' but to even compare those tribulations to the "Great and Terrible Day Of The Lord"
"Jesus says, "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall." In this verse Jesus is referring to the event of Matthew 24:15, which describes the revealing of the abomination of desolation, the man also known as the Antichrist. Also, Jesus in Matthew 24:29-30 states, “Immediately after the tribulation of those days . . . the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory." In this passage, Jesus defines the Great Tribulation (v.21) as beginning with the revealing of the abomination of desolation (v.15) and ending with Christ's second coming (v.30).

Other passages that refer to the Great Tribulation are Daniel 12:1b, which says, "And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time." It seems that Jesus was quoting this verse when He spoke the words recorded in Matthew 24:21. Also referring to the Great Tribulation is Jeremiah 30:7, "Alas! for that day is great, There is none like it; And it is the time of Jacob’s distress, But he will be saved from it." The phrase “Jacob’s distress” refers to the nation of Israel, which will experience persecution and natural disasters such as have never before been seen.

Considering the information Christ gave us in Matthew 24:15-30, it is easy to conclude that the beginning of the Great Tribulation has much to do with the abomination of desolation, an action of the Antichrist. In Daniel 9:26-27, we find that this man will make a "covenant" (a peace pact) with the world for seven years (one “week”; again, see the article on the Tribulation). Halfway through the seven-year period—"in the middle of the week"—we are told this man will break the covenant he made, stopping sacrifice and grain offering, which specifically refers to his actions in the rebuilt temple of the future. Revelation 13:1-10 gives even more detail concerning the Beast's actions, and just as important, it also verifies the length of time he will be in power. Revelation 13:5 says he will be in power for 42 months, which is three and one-half years, the length of the Great Tribulation..."

BIBLE VERSES ABOUT THE GREAT TRIBULATION

Vexatious · Oct 1, 2018

Enoch111 said:
You are living up to your username. This is both vexatious and untrue. So why have you come here to speak lies? And why would a Christian choose to call himself "vexatious"?
vex·a·tious
vekˈsāSHəs/
adjective

causing or tending to cause annoyance, frustration, or worry.
"the vexatious questions posed by software copyrights"

LAW
denoting an action or the bringer of an action that is brought without sufficient grounds for winning, purely to cause annoyance to the defendant.

Instead of doing a snowflake-in-a-fire impression, and melting down, why don't you address the content of what I said? Can you present a case that Dispies take the Bible no less literally than other professed literalists, without the exception I pointed out (mocking the Bible by taking blatantly symbolic and figurative speech literally)?

Do you agree with what Dave pointed out, "So, Gog and Magog are going to attack Israel with spears and wooden shields on horseback to steal their cattle?" I take the spears, wooden shields, horses, and cattle literally. Do you?

I vex no one on the side of truth. But, the devil better run.

Nancy · Oct 1, 2018

Enoch111 said:
You are living up to your username. This is both vexatious and untrue. So why have you come here to speak lies? And why would a Christian choose to call himself "vexatious"?
vex·a·tious
vekˈsāSHəs/
adjective

causing or tending to cause annoyance, frustration, or worry.
"the vexatious questions posed by software copyrights"

LAW
denoting an action or the bringer of an action that is brought without sufficient grounds for winning, purely to cause annoyance to the defendant.

Indeed, why WOULD a Christian choose such a divisive name?
All spirits have names it seems. I have read that very thing before too. Not sure if backed by the bible though.

Dave L · Oct 1, 2018

Nancy said:
What happened in 70 AD was by and through people. People destroyed Jerusalem. Do you really think that mere humans can do more powerful destruction than the God of the universe? HIS mighty power to destroy the earth and all the evil in it??

“Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.” (Luke 21:21–23)

“He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.” (John 3:36)

Vexatious · Oct 1, 2018

Nancy said:
"Jesus says, "For then there will be a great tribulation

Jesus did not say that. Which translation reads "there will be a great tribulation"? Your wording comes from your false dispy doctrine, not from the Bible.

, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall." In this verse Jesus is referring to the event of Matthew 24:15, which describes the revealing of the abomination of desolation, the man also known as the Antichrist. Also, Jesus in Matthew 24:29-30 states,

The Bible doesn't say the abomination of desolation is a man also known as the Antichrist. That's more false teaching coming from your dispy doctrine.

the Great Tribulation

Also, there's nothing in the Bible titled, "the Great Tribulation."

Heb 13:8 · Oct 1, 2018

Dave L said:
So, Gog and Magog are going to attack Israel with spears and wooden shields on horseback to steal their cattle? This is what Ezekiel says, he doesn't mention anything people read into the passage today.

Future Horses -- Ez 38:15, Micah 5:10, Zech 12:4, Zech 14:15, 20, Rev 9:16-17, Rev 14:20, Rev 18:11-13, Rev 19:18

EZ 38-39 TIMELINE

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