The Problem With The Trinity

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justbyfaith

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Nowhere in the Bible does it say that believing in the Trinity is essential for salvation.

The doctrine of the Deity of Christ, on the other hand, is identified as an essential in scripture.

As you study further, you find that there is distinction between the Persons of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost; and that they are indeed ONE: the same Spirit, the same Lord, and the same God.

1 John 5:7 is a primary verse on this; but of course the devil fights against it in his own way.

Has anyone ever heard of revisionist history?
 

Episkopos

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I am a Trinitarian, yet I hold in reserve this doctrine as I cannot be certain. And, to me, anyhow-does it matter? I don't think so. I am wrong about many things so, I am not going to defend this doctrine to death, neither will I try to disprove it because, scripture can be slippery, and it is easy to make a case for both.


I agree with holding lightly to this doctrine. I tend towards Bi-nity. That is where Father and Son are Elohim....and the Holy Spirit is but an extension of the love between Father and Son.
At times the Spirit is treated as an "it"...other times as a person. So there is a great mystery at work. God doesn't need our opinion...He is looking for us to surrender our lives to Him.
 
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justbyfaith

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The Holy Ghost is the Spirit of Jesus....Luke 23:46, 2 Corinthians 3:17. And, He proceeds from the Father...John 15:26.

He has a mind and makes intercession for us...Romans 8:27.

He is God...Acts of the Apostles 5:3-4.
 

justbyfaith

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Jesus came forth from the Father and is the 2nd Person of the Trinity...John 16:27-28.
 

justbyfaith

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The term Elohim is sometimes translated in the Old Testament as angels, other times as judges, in its plural form.
 

Nancy

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I agree with holding lightly to this doctrine. I tend towards Bi-nity. That is where Father and Son are Elohim....and the Holy Spirit is but an extension of the love between Father and Son.
At times the Spirit is treated as an "it"...other times as a person. So there is a great mystery at work. God doesn't need our opinion...He is looking for us to surrender our lives to Him.
Amen, I tend towards Bi-Trinity as well because of the same things you listed above..
 
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APAK

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Nowhere in the Bible does it say that believing in the Trinity is essential for salvation.

The doctrine of the Deity of Christ, on the other hand, is identified as an essential in scripture.

As you study further, you find that there is distinction between the Persons of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost; and that they are indeed ONE: the same Spirit, the same Lord, and the same God.

1 John 5:7 is a primary verse on this; but of course the devil fights against it in his own way.

Has anyone ever heard of revisionist history?

JBF: you are just juggling words here, admit it you are a Trinitarian or some variant of it. ONe part of Trinity doctrine simply says that Jesus = God = source of divinity = means nonsense to scripture. YHWH or God Almighty is the source of all divinity and deity. Yes, Jesus is immortal today, although this does not make him God the Divine one. You were taught this misguided doctrine from youth I suspect.

I noted something you posted a little earlier. #527..you infer that it's ok to replace YHWH for Lord Jesus, without thought to its origin or original translation.

So you can then replace the word YHWH and Lord, for God Almighty or the Lord our God, into Jesus our Lord and our God, in thousands of places in scripture? How interesting

I’ve never seen or read a Bible like that one. What is its name? Oh, I see, how silly of me, we are meant to just understand that whenever the word YHWH or Lord is used we are to mentally change it to automatically to Jesus.

So, you read Mar 12:29 as,
(Mar 12:29) Jesus answered: The first is, Hear, O Israel, the Lord (Jesus) our God, the Lord (Jesus) is one.

So, you read Mar 12:30 as,

(Mar 12:30) And you shall love the (Jesus) Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.

I wonder what YHWH would say?

You are forgetting that when Jesus is called Lord, whether translated correctly or in err, it always has a restrictive and specific meaning. It never means God Almighty. It means that he is our Master, exalted one, Supreme ruler and king over our lives. He paid for us with his blood. Jesus is still a servant to his Father as we are today. So who is the deity again?

You evidently do not read scripture for true meaning and why Jesus is truly your savior and YHWH is his Father and ours.

Is your faith and doctrines you preach a new or neo-Trinitarian view? I’m really serious on this point. I would say that 20-30 years ago your open eagerness and wholesale substitution of Jesus as the son of God for God Almighty would be extraordinary and incredible thinking; even as a 3 person as one God pagan modelist.

I wonder what the next new Trinitarian doctrine or its variants will be embraced in another 20 years? Of course, completely retranslating the Bible where YHWH is entirely erased, and Jesus or Lord is substituted directly into scripture. Yes, I might jest although it may well happen in the future.

There is very sacred reason why YHWH is ultimately the special name over ALL other names, the unspoken title of the creator and our God, our Lord and source of all Deity. Jesus our Lord and Saviour would agree with me totally as YHWH is his Father as well.

As a believer, we all serve YHWH, PERIOD!!

Bless you,

APAK
 
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stunnedbygrace

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Amen, I tend towards Bi-Trinity as well because of the same things you listed above..

I guess it makes sense to me because I know that God is Spirit. He also came in human flesh form where if you saw Jesus He said you HAVE seen the Father. Jesus is also The Word and I know Gods word is Spirit because HE is Spirit, as the verse says. So if God the father is Spirit, is there another Spirit besides God who is the Holy Spirit? At least that's how my mind processes it. But honestly, whether I say Jesus, God, or the Holy Spirit, I am just basically saying ...God. My mind doesn't divide them from each other. They are all just God to me.

I know it's impossible for me to think too separately about each of them, but I won't argue with someone who says the Holy Spirit is not God or Jesus isn't God, but it does perplex me because we are to worship no one but God yet in heaven, as Revelation says, they bow down and worship the Lamb. And the Lamb/Jesus never says: see that you don't do it because I'm only a man...
 
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amadeus

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Hi gadar perets, among churches that do not believe in the trinity are Armstrongism, Christian Scientists, Jehovah Witnesses, and Mormons. I see that you are listed as an “Other Religion,” and would like to know what that is; makes it easier to understand where you’re coming from.

I came out of Catholicism and know what a transition that was, had a sister that was into Armstrongism that I truly believe was saved, and although I near didn’t believe anything they did, I believe my sister believed on Jesus as her Savior.

I read in 10:13, For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed?

Will I ever believe Jesus was “a god?” in Jn 3:16 which is the New World Translation from the JWs. I sure pray not.

Under these circumstances, I don’t see anyone buying into what you’re saying, unless they belonged to one of those other religions, and what I’m saying isn’t to be rude. My prayer is that you will one day really consider what we’re saying. :)
In serving God, it is not a 'majority rules' way that will get us to where He wants us to be. Whatever others 'buy into' is their choice, but how often is the majority right in the things of God?
How many natural Israelites died in the wilderness? How many of the adults saved out of Egypt made it into the Promised Land?
Jesus said:

"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." Matt 7:13-14

Most people today among those called Christian I guess would say that they are also trinitarian, but few of them can give a good reason why they are trinitarian other than that their denomination or their minister has always taught it that way. A small number may have studied the Bible about it, but most among the Protestants are like the Catholics. They simply go with the general flow of their minister, their church or their family and leave it at that. They don't want to walk effectively alone. That is not a good reason to hold onto one belief rather than another, is it?

What does it mean to "pray with ceasing"? What does it means to "rejoice in the Lord always"? What does it mean to believe in One God only? Why is it necessary to break or separate that One God into more than one part? Did God tell us to do that? Do the scriptures tell us to do that?

Jesus gave us two essentials or great commandments [ Matt 22:37-40]. Jesus gave us two specific things to seek [ Matt 6:33]. No where did he say try to figure out if God has parts and then preach/teach what you figure out as if it were truth. Pontius Pilate asked: "What is truth?" He did not know. Who does?


Should we pray that we might be like you in our beliefs or should simply strive to obey those two great commandments and seek those two specifics? Should we not rather pray that God bring toward becoming what He wants us to be?
 
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gadar perets

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When a person falsely sets himself up as a teacher ...and is in grave error... that person needs to be discredited.
You accuse me of being a false teacher, but are unable to refute my posts. So you resort to personal attacks. How childish. Can't you dialogue in a respectful manner?
 

justbyfaith

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JBF: you are just juggling words here, admit it you are a Trinitarian or some variant of it. ONe part of Trinity doctrine simply says that Jesus = God = source of divinity = means nonsense to scripture. YHWH or God Almighty is the source of all divinity and deity. Yes, Jesus is immortal today, although this does not make him God the Divine one. You were taught this misguided doctrine from youth I suspect.

I noted something you posted a little earlier. #527..you infer that it's ok to replace YHWH for Lord Jesus, without thought to its origin or original translation.

So you can then replace the word YHWH and Lord, for God Almighty or the Lord our God, into Jesus our Lord and our God, in thousands of places in scripture? How interesting

I’ve never seen or read a Bible like that one. What is its name? Oh, I see, how silly of me, we are meant to just understand that whenever the word YHWH or Lord is used we are to mentally change it to automatically to Jesus.

So, you read Mar 12:29 as,
(Mar 12:29) Jesus answered: The first is, Hear, O Israel, the Lord (Jesus) our God, the Lord (Jesus) is one.

So, you read Mar 12:30 as,

(Mar 12:30) And you shall love the (Jesus) Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.

I wonder what YHWH would say?

You are forgetting that when Jesus is called Lord, whether translated correctly or in err, it always has a restrictive and specific meaning. It never means God Almighty. It means that he is our Master, exalted one, Supreme ruler and king over our lives. He paid for us with his blood. Jesus is still a servant to his Father as we are today. So who is the deity again?

You evidently do not read scripture for true meaning and why Jesus is truly your savior and YHWH is his Father and ours.

Is your faith and doctrines you preach a new or neo-Trinitarian view? I’m really serious on this point. I would say that 20-30 years ago your open eagerness and wholesale substitution of Jesus as the son of God for God Almighty would be extraordinary and incredible thinking; even as a 3 person as one God pagan modelist.

I wonder what the next new Trinitarian doctrine or its variants will be embraced in another 20 years? Of course, completely retranslating the Bible where YHWH is entirely erased, and Jesus or Lord is substituted directly into scripture. Yes, I might jest although it may well happen in the future.

There is very sacred reason why YHWH is ultimately the special name over ALL other names, the unspoken title of the creator and our God, our Lord and source of all Deity. Jesus our Lord and Saviour would agree with me totally as YHWH is his Father as well.

As a believer, we all serve YHWH, PERIOD!!

Bless you,

APAK
Yes devil, the best way for you to destroy the true understanding of the Trinity when it rears its ugly head is to label it as the worst type of heresy. You will surely get the victory because of my thorn in the flesh. Another 5,000 years, I gather, before the end can really come....

@APAK I'm not talking to you but to the principality that is behind you.
 

gadar perets

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See Colossians 1:16 Ephesians 3:9.
Col 1:16 for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him; ASV
Eph 3:9 and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things; NASB
What should I be seeing? The KJV has translated both verses wrong.

You have to realize that Jesus is God incarnate according to Isaiah 9:6.
"God incarnate" means the Father became a man. Isaiah 9:6 says no such thing. At best it says the Son is a mighty elohim and a "father" that lives forever. I disagree with both, but that is the best the verse has to offer you when translated in your favor. "The Mighty GOD" and "the Everlasting Father" are bogus translations.

Have I shown adequately that if Jesus is the Lord, He must also be God?
No.

Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. KJV​

The only true God (Yeshua's Father YHWH - John 17:3) made His Son to be Lord. The Father was always "Lord" as a translation of the Hebrew word "Adonai". So one "Lord" made His Son a second "Lord". He did not make himself "Lord" at the fictitious incarnation. The Father was ALWAYS "Lord". A second being, the Son, was made "Lord" by the only true God.

For the past 400 years the kjv has been the accepted version of scripture that dictates to us what is biblical sound doctrine. Would you contend that for 400 years we have not had the true message of salvation?
The salvation message in the KJV is that God sent His only begotten Son to be the Saviour of the world. That is the correct salvation message. Saying the Son preexisted as the logos is not a salvation message and it is an erroneous message.

For in the kjv it is clear to me that in specific verses, the Lord is God...Acts of the Apostles 4:24, Mark 12:29, Ephesians 4:5, Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21, Jude 1:4.
You are mixing verses about the Father and the Son. Ephesians 4:5 and Jude 1:4 are about the Son. The others are about the Father. They both bear the title "Lord" because the original "Lord" (YHWH) made His Son to be a "Lord" as well.

And that Jesus is the Lord must also be evident to you...1 Corinthians 12:3, 1 Corinthians 8:6, John 20:28,
I fully agree that Yeshua is "Lord".

The story of the ten lepers (Luke 17:11-19) is also, another evidence to me that Jesus is God, the way that I read that in the English language (and I don't think the translators even intended that to be a proof of Christ's Deity).
Verse 16 does not mean the healed leper fell at God's feet. Yeshua was the vessel God used to heal the leper. The leper knew this and so he first glorified God (YHWH), then he fell at Yeshua's feet to thank him for being healed. If my brother in the faith prayed over me today and I was healed, I would lift my arms in praise to YHWH and then I would thank my brother. That does not make my brother God.
 

gadar perets

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What I meant was, that the true Jesus, if He is the Lord, is also God. And therefore since you reject Him as God, you reject Him as Lord. I am not accusing you, my friend. I am attempting to open your eyes.
The two titles do not go hand in hand. There is only one true God, Father YHWH. There are two Lords (YHWH and Yeshua). There are many "elohim", but YHWH is the greatest of them all. He is also the greatest Lord of all.

Of course the devil hates the concept of Easter because He was defeated by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. And since the original autographs have been lost to us, there is no way of knowing whether Luke was referring to a holiday celebrating that event in history or not. But I can see how, if there were a Greek word that described that holiday, the devil might try to annihilate it out of very existence. He wants to rid the world of the good news that Jesus is risen from the dead.
The Greek "pascha" refers to Yeshua's death, not his resurrection. The KJV translators blew it.

And if it is a mistranslation that departed from the original autographs, I happen to believe that the Holy Spirit ordained for it to be in there as a reminder of a major tenet of the gospel and a mandate to celebrate Christ's resurrection every year; for it was probably included in the scriptures at a time when the devil was trying to destroy that holiday in church tradition. So I believe it was wise of King James to include it in the translation that he authorized; because it was timely and a move of the Holy Ghost to counteract the devil's attack on a holiday that reminds people every year that Jesus is risen from the dead. Can you see how the devil would love to throw that holiday out of existence? Therefore you would be doing his work to continue to complain about this wonderful rendition in the kjv that preserves the most important holiday that ever was. For the remembrance of Jesus' resurrection proves to the world that God is greater than the devil and that Jesus is the Lord and Father of eternity.
It is not the devil that wants Easter removed, but the Holy Spirit because it is a false, man made day. Easter causes the remembrance of the resurrection to fall when the resurrection did NOT take place. Man fixed a date for Easter each year that does NOT coincide with the true resurrection day (wave sheaf day - Leviticus 23:10-11).
 

gadar perets

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That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Romans 10:9.
That is my confession except I don't use an erroneous name that was only recently invented for my Saviour.

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Yeshua, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
 

gadar perets

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Whenever something does not fit your theology, it was translated wrongly. So we must now come to you as the *guru* who will fix all the wrongly translated Scriptures! Amazing how someone can be so delusional.
Do you have something against comparing translations or are you also a KJV only guy?