The Problem With The Trinity

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justbyfaith

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Well without any compromise, just with an open understanding, let me suggest this. I will try and be precise and not make a general or easily misused statement.

As long as we know that the Father, our God Almighty is the one true God that is to be only worshipped, we can show ‘worship’ also to our Lord Jesus if and only if we have in our heart and mind that we are worshipping the Father because Jesus is the Lamb, the Messiah, and his Son.

If we ‘worship’ Jesus our Savior in any other way, independent of the Father, then we worship an idol.

Every believer must find a way to clearly delineate this in their heart, comfortably and confidentially. Of course, we must first believe that Jesus is never God. I believe that this is the rub here.

The subject of ‘bowing down,’ ‘worshipping’ and giving honor or respect is an extensive Biblical study. It really involved history and its cultural use to a great extent. Too long to develop in Posts, back and forth.

Bless you,

APAK
Actually, it is a sin to worship the Father independent of Jesus. For He is the only way to the Father, John 14:6. See also 1 John 2:23.

We are all to honour Him as we honour the Father.

That means that if we honour the Father as God, we honour the Son also as God.
 

Episkopos

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You have totally distorted what I said. Abiding is NOT to be WHERE he is, but to be IN HIM and he is us. It is a supernatural joining of the believer to the Saviour. It is not a doctrinal stance, but a life giving, nourishing relationship that can be broken off just as a branch can be broken off a vine and wither away.

Now, how about we get back to the trinity instead of this derailing you caused?

Rom. 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

You are stuck with the unbelieving Jews ....2 steps back from the holiness you seek. The righteousness which is of faith...is an end to the law for the OT righteousness.

The righteousness which is of faith is submitted to the righteousness of God. But you are mixing law and grace...which is by faith.
 
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gadar perets

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At least you admit that you are questioning the Christian faith and are therefore not of it.
Paul was correct when he prophesied that after his departure grievous wolves would enter in and not spare the flock. Those wolves brought in all manner of heretical teachings such as the abolishment of Torah, the changing of the Sabbath to Sunday or no Sabbath at all, the introduction of pagan holidays for YHWH's holy days, eating unclean meats, false names for the Father and the Son, and worst of all, the worship of the Son as though he is the only true God. I want no part of Christianity. My faith is in and of Messiah Yeshua, not Christianity. Yeshua is the door to the Kingdom, not Christianity. The end time saints will keep the commandments of YHWH and the faith of Yeshua, not the faith of Christianity (Revelation 14:12). If Christians want to shut up their kingdom of heaven to men by not allowing anyone in who rejects the trinity or deity of Christ, so be it. I am already in the true Kingdom of Heaven through Yeshua.
 

stunnedbygrace

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Gadar, what do you make of the vision where a big sheet fell from heaven and unclean animals were in it and God told the Jewish apostle to eat. The apostle said, no Lord, I have never eaten anything u nclean. God replied, do not call unclean what I have called clean.

You say heretical teachers brought in the eating of unclean meats. How do you fit that with the vision God gave the apostle?
 

bbyrd009

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justbyfaith

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yikes, way to make his point?

It does not make his point if you are someone who desires to adhere to the Christian faith. Of course, if you want to depart from it, I suppose it would be making his point very nicely. At least now we are identifying the unbelievers here.

what evil deeds of his have you witnessed, jbf?
Denial of the doctrine of the Deity of Christ.

See John 8:24 in light of John 8:58 in light of John 8:59 and John 10:31-33 and Exodus 3:14.

Unfortunately the devil has fought hard and has almost won in his battle to destroy our trust in the King James Version. It is very unfortunate. I guess that is one of the reasons why Jesus said that the way to life is narrow and there are few that find it.
 

justbyfaith

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Paul was correct when he prophesied that after his departure grievous wolves would enter in and not spare the flock. Those wolves brought in all manner of heretical teachings such as the abolishment of Torah, the changing of the Sabbath to Sunday or no Sabbath at all, the introduction of pagan holidays for YHWH's holy days, eating unclean meats, false names for the Father and the Son, and worst of all, the worship of the Son as though he is the only true God. I want no part of Christianity. My faith is in and of Messiah Yeshua, not Christianity. Yeshua is the door to the Kingdom, not Christianity. The end time saints will keep the commandments of YHWH and the faith of Yeshua, not the faith of Christianity (Revelation 14:12). If Christians want to shut up their kingdom of heaven to men by not allowing anyone in who rejects the trinity or deity of Christ, so be it. I am already in the true Kingdom of Heaven through Yeshua.
Personally, I do my best to keep the food laws of the Old Testament; while at the same time I know that I am a good minister of Jesus Christ to point out that there is nothing unclean of itself and that every creature of God is good and nothing to be refuse if it be received with thanksgiving; for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

Paul himself brought in this "heretical teaching".
 

bbyrd009

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a different Jesus being taught
the different Jesus being taught is the one in Established Churches wadr
It does not make his point if you are someone who desires to adhere to the Christian faith. Of course, if you want to depart from it, I suppose it would be making his point very nicely. At least now we are identifying the unbelievers here.
ah, who is "we?" are you sure "we" are all identifying the same "unbelievers," or is it possible that your list is maybe different than someone else's, or what
 

bbyrd009

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Denial of the doctrine of the Deity of Christ.
that is your opinion perhaps, but the guy was quite plain in his reverence imo, and after all i doubt he spends this much time in Christian forums seeking anything other than a better truth, do you? i tell you that many will come from East and West and recline with Abraham, ok, the Roman Centurion was never converted for a good reason; he was fine. And he would not agree with your perception of Jesus, and the Good Samaritan would not give us the time of day most likely
 

stunnedbygrace

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I believe that to say Jesus is not to be worshipped is not what the majority of Christian denominations teach. You rather expect from buddhists, Islamists and other religions, to hear that Jesus was simply a good man but not God.

There are some things that denominations have gotten right. Even a broken watch....You know.

In response to post #668.
 

bbyrd009

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Unfortunately the devil has fought hard and has almost won in his battle to destroy our trust in the King James Version.
? the devil does not have to fight at all imo, as soon as he gets you fighting his work is done, so i guess i agree that his work is pretty much done lol, at least for now. If you can Quote one single instance of the devil fighting or the accepted believer fighting in Scripture we could maybe proceed, but imo this is not the best characterization. And fwiw if yo--not sure who this "our" is, sorry--trust the KJV then it is an idol to you imo, you will then proceed to celebrate Easter during Passover and all kinds of ignorant heathen stuff without even realizing that you are fighting God, not satan
 

lforrest

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the different Jesus being taught is the one in Established Churches wadr

IMO there are many counterfeits but only one real Jesus. The fakes have a different nature and ministry. A fake Jesus may not have died on the cross, or may not have a divine nature, or may not have a human nature. He will not have the power and authority as depicted in the bible. He will not agree with the Word. The true Jesus lives.

The traditional view of Jesus conforms with these, and he is the real one.
 

bbyrd009

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I believe that to say Jesus is not to be worshipped is not what the majority of Christian denominations teach.
come out of her, my people.

or i mean bam go sing "when we all get to heaven" with them, honor their contracts for Jesus with your government, and be prepared to pay the last penny when your court date comes up for the bankruptcy, i have no objection. My grandkids will not pay a dime, ever
 
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bbyrd009

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The traditional view of Jesus conforms with these, and he is the real one.
He is the real one to you bc He is the one you have been indoctrinated into from the cradle forrest, so i'm not inclined to argue here ok, but you could easily find yourself singing "When we all get to heaven" with that crowd is all i'm sayin', ok. Worship Jesus as long as you like, there's surely way worse things you could worship maybe i guess, but understand what the Priest breaking up Nehushtan means imo. I do not worship Jesus even a little any more, i am personally more interested in following Christ, and becoming elohim myself!

you are a Priest, and Christ is our High Priest, right. Note how your model so closely reps the RCC one? even if the elements are moved around a little?
 

stunnedbygrace

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A man's views of what is important and basic are not always taught to him by men. then sometimes they are but the man has searched to see if they are true (bereans) and found that they are. And then sometimes he's taught by men but never bothers to search for himself.
 

justbyfaith

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? the devil does not have to fight at all imo, as soon as he gets you fighting his work is done, so i guess i agree that his work is pretty much done lol, at least for now. If you can Quote one single instance of the devil fighting or the accepted believer fighting in Scripture we could maybe proceed, but imo this is not the best characterization. And fwiw if yo--not sure who this "our" is, sorry--trust the KJV then it is an idol to you imo, you will then proceed to celebrate Easter during Passover and all kinds of ignorant heathen stuff without even realizing that you are fighting God, not satan
The devil is the adversary. And you think he doesn't fight? He fights his battles by lying to the people. He deceives the whole world. Revelation 12 gives the story of how the devil was kicked out of heaven in the beginning. You think he didn't fight in that battle?

Now that he is cast down to the earth, he fights by lying to the people and attempting to win them to his side; and by dissuading them from putting their trust in Christ the living God.

As for Easter, as I said before, so I say again: Easter represents the resurrection of Jesus Christ which is the very thing that defeated the devil; so he hates it. he would love to destroy it as a holiday; and this is why he makes it a point of contention in the kjv. Not to mention the kjv refutes unsound doctrine better than any other translation in existence.
 

bbyrd009

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The devil is the adversary. And you think he doesn't fight? He fights his battles by lying to the people. He deceives the whole world. Revelation 12 gives the story of how the devil was kicked out of heaven in the beginning. You think he didn't fight in that battle?

Now that he is cast down to the earth, he fights by lying to the people and attempting to win them to his side; and by dissuading them from putting their trust in Christ the living God.
If you can Quote one single instance of the devil fighting or the accepted believer fighting in Scripture we could maybe proceed
and no, i do not find that satan fought any battle, which would imply that God had to "fight" satan to eject him from heaven, wadr.

i know this Hegelian...stuff is what we are raised on, and this is not a comfortable perspective to hold right away, which is why i suggest Scripture on the matter, and let's go from there. Meaning that when you cannot find any, tag me if you like and we can go from there, and fwiw i have no idea where it might go from there either.

There is no spiritual fight to have, and neither can one be Quoted, even if you can get close, and this is for the same reason the Jesus cannot be Quoted ever "returning," or most of the other tenets that derive from our doctrines, given to us by Paul's wolves
 
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bbyrd009

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Easter represents the resurrection of Jesus Christ
Easter is a pagan goddess that has nothing whatsoever to do with Passover, which is what is written, and you can celebrate Easter for the rest of your life, i won't judge you, but you cannot change what was written, sorry, and neither can the Queen
 
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