Ezekiel 21 Destroy the Righteous Along With the Wicked

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stunnedbygrace

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But is making a choice the point? Or is continuing to abide in it the point?
 

amadeus

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but again, that was not right after crossing the Sea of Reeds, when they were not choosing at all, Shekinah was leading, etc
How many times do people have to make choices if and when they actually get on the highway of holiness toward God? Now we know that God is not a god of confusion, but is not any man who chooses any other pathway but God's walking in confusion?

When the pillar of fire by night and cloud by day were moving perhaps they were OK, but after a short while were not even the pillars seen only as Nehushtan rather than that Shekinah glory? God was there and Moses was there, but the people were mostly blind.
 
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bbyrd009

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How many that walked in the wilderness died there? Never to enter the promised land? This gives you an idea of an eternal destiny of those who are not dead in the lake of fire...not in the kingdom of God either...but are wanderers in the wilderness forever.
yes, now i'm sure you have the wrong impression there, wadr, these two are being conflated now?

Maybe someone else will comment on this
 
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bbyrd009

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If God was leading and they were following how is that not making a choice...?
the point there is that the wilderness itself does not rep evil or lostness, as is being taught
God led His people into the wilderness before they rebelled, so the characterization that they were in/died in the wilderness bc they rebelled cannot be true then, even if it was later
 

bbyrd009

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God was there and Moses was there, but the people were mostly blind.
ok then make an argument at Christ being driven into the wilderness if you would,
remembering that the subject is wilderness, and um
we just looked at the wicked there, let's look at the righteous there now too
ya, ya :D
or were Moses and Aaron and guy 3 i forgot being punished too?
 

bbyrd009

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How many times do people have to make choices if and when they actually get on the highway of holiness toward God?
boy, if most believers are to be believed, accepting Jesus with your mouth is the last choice you will ever make i guess; so i dunno quite how to answer here
:)
 
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stunnedbygrace

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The choices are daily, many times a day. Temptation to sink down into worry, temptation to do as the world counsels, temptation to murder.
 

Episkopos

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Matthew 18:11
[11] For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

Ezekiel 34:16
[16] I will seek that which was lost, and bring again that which was driven away, and will bind up that which was broken, and will strengthen that which was sick: but I will destroy the fat and the strong; I will feed them with judgment.

Is this a different lost?


That was my word...lost. The wicked are destroyed in the lake of fire.
 

Episkopos

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well, later, yes. But that does not mean "wilderness bad" like you seem to be forwarding imo. i mean after they left Egypt--and crossed the Yam Suph, but nevermind that part--God led them straight into the wilderness too right

"Behold, I will do something new, Now it will spring forth; Will you not be aware of it? I will even make a roadway in the wilderness, Rivers in the desert."

The wilderness is a place of testing...of preparing. If we can trust God through it...no problem.
 

Harvest 1874

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What is the significance of the “river that went out of Eden to water the garden; and from there it was parted, and became into four heads”?

What could each of the four rivers represent? Gen 2:10-14

“There is a spiritual significance to this description, the lesson being that all humanity originally stemmed from a single stock or one “river” namely, Father Adam. Just as the stream, upon its exit from the garden, subsequently parted into four heads, (“beginnings”, Rotherham’s version) so the human race or seed of man, subsequent to Adam’s fall and banishment from Eden, terminates into four separate salvation's (“beginnings”) or destinies between Paradise Lost and Paradise Restored.” (Excerpts taken from, The Keys to Revelation, Br. Frank Shalieu)

The name of the first is “Pishon” (the gusher) it may also carry the meaning “flowing stream” The Pishon is now known by some to be called the “Ganges” which word signifies or express its quality of continual increase in its course, from the great number of tributary streams which flow into it. (“…Of the increase of His government and peace there will be no end…” Isa 9:7), “And the nations shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it.” Rev 21: 24).

It is believed to represent the Very Elect class, the “Little Flock”, the reasons we believe this to be so are given in its description it is said to surround all the land of Havilah which means “the circle or crown” it speaks of the good (perfect) gold of the land, gold is associated with divinity. There is also Bdellium (the heavenly food or manna) thus is given the reminder of the hope of immortality, the future reward to the faithful. It is also stated that the “onyx stone is found there”. The black onyx indicates the humble origin of the exalted Christ Company. The Christ in glory will ever be mindful of the pit whence they were dug and the rock whence they were hewn. (See Isa. 51:1; Rev.1: 4).

The name of the second river is “Gihon” (the bubbler) now known to some as the “Nile” it is said to surround all the land of Cush (Ethiopia) the land of servitude. “…They are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple.” (Rev.7: 15) Thus is pictured the Great Company Class.

The name of the third river is “Hiddekel” (the encircler), (possibly representing the ones whom the Lord has sent to walk to and fro throughout the earth Zec 1:10) known to some as the Tigris that which goes toward the east or in front of Assyria (Assyria??? possibly Babylon, see Mic.5: 5, 6) The Ancient Worthies. The Ancient Worthies or Princes in all the earth (Psa.45: 16) shall come to the forefront (east) of Assyria or Mystic Babylon which is situated on the banks of the Euphrates andThey shall waste with the sword the land of Assyriaalso see Zec 1:8-11

The name of the forth river is the “Euphrates” (waters, the fertile river) known as the good and abounding river, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth…” Gen 1:28, thus representing the World of Mankind when Perfected.

It seems evident that the four rivers mentioned in verses 11-14 are only mentioned by way of illustration for in no part of the earth do the rivers above named, if by them are meant the rivers now existing under their names, meet either in their source or their progress.

The conclusion, therefore, to be drawn is, that these rivers were not meant to be taken as the literal rivers that exist today, but by way of illustrating the properties of the literal rivers a comparison can be made. These rivers were chosen to express the same qualities as the four, which went out from the garden in Eden.

The expression, therefore, “the same” is that which surrounds all the land of Havilah, or “the same” is that which surrounds all the land of Cush, or “the same” is that which goes in front of Assyria, these would merely signify, that “similar” is that which surrounds all the land of Havilah or “similar” to that which surrounds all the land of Cush and etc. (see Rotherham’s)

Some other points to ponder

The “Garden” or “Paradise” was a separate part of the track of land that composed Eden it was located in the eastern part of Eden (Verse 8) it is also stated that Adam was created outside of the garden, possibly and most likely in Eden. I believe this is shown in Verse 10 “Now a river went out (that is it had its beginning) of Eden to water the garden, and from there it parted and became four beginnings.”

It is also believed that the parting of the four rivers took place in the garden after the fall of Adam and from there they proceeded. The Lord foreknew that because of the disobedience of Adam there would be opened to mankind four manners of life.
 
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Episkopos

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It is also believed that the parting of the four rivers took place in the garden after the fall of Adam and from there they proceeded. The Lord foreknew that because of the disobedience of Adam there would be opened to mankind four manners of life.

This is exactly right Harvest...
 

stunnedbygrace

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the point there is that the wilderness itself does not rep evil or lostness, as is being taught
God led His people into the wilderness before they rebelled, so the characterization that they were in/died in the wilderness bc they rebelled cannot be true then, even if it was later

Okay, I understand what you are saying. It is not being in the wilderness that is sinful. It is the lack of faith that keeps you there until you di e that is sinful.
 

bbyrd009

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Okay, I understand what you are saying. It is not being in the wilderness that is sinful. It is the lack of faith that keeps you there until you di e that is sinful.
ok, not sure how we got onto sin there, "wilderness" seems to be used in two different ways in Scripture, and both of these ways are symbolic of things that happen IRL i think? Somehow we're back to "wilderness bad" here, when no one here can find a single passage along the lines of "seek the center of the camp/tribe/nation," but rather "leave the camp."

i mean yes, when God is prophesied as turning a city/nation into wilderness or something that would mean something different, and no doubt this is what Epi meant to refer to, but fwiw i would suggest even then not setting your definitions in stone, for all we know "wilderness" might be being used to represent city life even, "urban jungle."

the point being Seek Your Own Salvation. There is no group salvation, and if you believe that you are in a literal group or congregation that are all in one accord and heading in one direction spiritually you are deceived, particularly if you believe that you are all going to heaven when you die, illustrating in living color what pagans have been obsessed with since Pharaohs and Chinese Emperors left us evidence of the belief, and i guess forever before.

so if you want to believe when we all get to heaven and soon and very soon i guess that's ok for a start, i'm surely still lost myself ok, but allow that there may be more truth you have not gotten yet from the est'd church imo.

The very best thing any believer reading this could do, today, right now, would be to get off that fence and walk out your front door and into the nearest wilderness, and maybe you'll cross the Sea of Reeds on the way
 

stunnedbygrace

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You've lost me bbyrd...where in scripture does wilderness ever refer to a city...?

God led Israel into the wilderness and He led Jesus there for His temptation. And yes, this doesn't mean that to be led into the wilderness is a bad thing. It is a testing of our trust, which is a good thing, even though it doesn't feel good at the time.

But Jesus survived the wilderness temptation of His trust. Only a few Israelites survived theirs.

So as epi said, it's okay as long as you don't fail to trust and get stuck there until death.
 
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bbyrd009

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You've lost me bbyrd...where in scripture does wilderness ever refer to a city...?
in a surface reading It doesn't, but many comparisons can be drawn i guess, that's how we get "concrete jungle," and my point was that Scripture has a way of saying one thing and meaning another; ostriches and owls and whatnot might describe people, and etc.
But Jesus survived the wilderness temptation of His trust.
Jesus was also in the "wilderness" every day He spent on the earth, too, or at least in the world, where He was sent. Yes, He also was sent there to be "tested," but we also have references to wilderness as a refuge
So as epi said, it's okay as long as you don't fail to trust and get stuck there until death.
hey, same thing we could say about anyone in the world i guess right
at least in a manner of speaking.
 
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VictoryinJesus

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the point there is that the wilderness itself does not rep evil or lostness, as is being taught
God led His people into the wilderness before they rebelled, so the characterization that they were in/died in the wilderness bc they rebelled cannot be true then, even if it was later

There are so many questions I still have. Exodus 14:3-4 speaks of Pharaoh saying God’s people are entangled in the land and the wilderness shut them in. “For Pharaoh will say of the children of Israel, They are entangled in the land, the wilderness hath shut them in. [4] And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, that he shall follow after them; and I will be honoured upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host; that the Egyptians may know that I am the Lord . And they did so.”

Consider the Son being led (driven by the Spirit of God) into the wilderness where the Son clearly does not become “shut it” but overcomes. There is this odd reference to “if thou shalt kill all this people as one man” in Numbers 14:15-18 “Now if thou shalt kill all this people as one man, then the nations which have heard the fame of thee will speak, saying, [16] Because the Lord was not able to bring this people into the land which he sware unto them, therefore he hath slain them in the wilderness. [17] And now, I beseech thee, let the power of my Lord be great, according as thou hast spoken, saying, [18] The Lord is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty , visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation .”

“...as one man.”
Judges 6:16
[16] And the Lord said unto him, Surely I will be with thee, and thou shalt smite the Midianites as one man.

Judges 20:11-12
[11] So all the men of Israel were gathered against the city, knit together as one man. [12] And the tribes of Israel sent men through all the tribe of Benjamin, saying, What wickedness is this that is done among you?

But this “one man” of flesh could never fulfill the law and therefore lives a life of bondage unto death.

Romans 5:19-21
[19] For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. [20] Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: [21] That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Ephesians 2:15-16
[15] Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; [16] And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

No one ever wants to look at the Leviathan, but it is there. Psalm 74:13-16
[13] Thou didst divide the sea by thy strength: thou brakest the heads of the dragons in the waters. [14] Thou brakest the heads of leviathan in pieces, and gavest him to be meat to the people inhabiting the wilderness. [15] Thou didst cleave the fountain and the flood: thou driedst up mighty rivers. [16] The day is thine, the night also is thine: thou hast prepared the light and the sun.

Isaiah 27:1-5
[1] In that day the Lord with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea. [2] In that day sing ye unto her, A vineyard of red wine. [3] I the Lord do keep it; I will water it every moment: lest any hurt it, I will keep it night and day. [4] Fury is not in me: who would set the briers and thorns against me in battle? I would go through them, I would burn them together. [5] Or let him take hold of my strength, that he may make peace with me; and he shall make peace with me.

Job 41:4-5
[4] Will he make a covenant with thee? wilt thou take him for a servant for ever? [5] Wilt thou play with him as with a bird? or wilt thou bind him for thy maidens?
 

stunnedbygrace

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in a surface reading It doesn't, but many comparisons can be drawn i guess, that's how we get "concrete jungle," and my point was that Scripture has a way of saying one thing and meaning another; ostriches and owls and whatnot might describe people, and etc.

Well...yes, okay. But if we have two examples of men led into the wilderness for a testing of faith, most other men can understand some man if he refers to the wilderness as a testing and how failing that te st of trust will cause you to die there eventually ( but there is always hope) never having gone where God had prepared for you to go after the testing of your trust.

you can't go through life insisting that nothing ever means anything or you will never learn anything or make important connections or gain any understanding at all!
 
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stunnedbygrace

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so, sorry for derailing here, hopefully the point seek the wilderness has been made to those who have crossed the Yam Suph

seek the wilderness reminds me of Saint John of the Cross when he spoke of becoming nothing and knowing nothing as being the way to...virtue o r wisdom.

And there is for some of us this experience of seeming to be abandoned by God in a wilderness of knowing and understanding nothing. But faith is to keep trusting even in that dark.
 
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stunnedbygrace

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in a surface reading It doesn't, but many comparisons can be drawn i guess, that's how we get "concrete jungle," and my point was that Scripture has a way of saying one thing and meaning another; ostriches and owls and whatnot might describe people, and etc.

Jesus was also in the "wilderness" every day He spent on the earth, too, or at least in the world, where He was sent. Yes, He also was sent there to be "tested," but we also have references to wilderness as a refuge
hey, same thing we could say about anyone in the world i guess right
at least in a manner of speaking.
I can think of wilderness as a refuge in the instance where God says He will once again lead Israel into the desert and speak tenderly to her again...But then it is not the wilderness/ desert that is a refuge. It is the God with them who is their refuge. The wilderness/ desert is a harsh place with no water, wild animals, poisonous snakes and no McDonald's drive thrus.