Books Outside the Bible

Uisdean · Oct 10, 2018

Mayflower said:
Are you talking about Jane's quote? Responding to her?

I think I will study the Bible, and if a question comes up on understanding something more, I may check it out. I know Esther is my favorite book of the Bible, so a second Esther does peak my interest...

If you use a translation like the Jerusalem Bible, you will find, in Esther, chapter 4, the prayers of Mordecai and of Esther. These are wonderful prayers. I hope you can find them. And, it is not a second Esther, it is some additional details to the story. There are also stories about Judith and Tobit. Some of our understanding of angels comes from Tobit.

BTW...any history professors out there? It is my understanding that the story of Esther takes place around the time of the great defeat of the Persians by the Greeks. I think it was the battle of Thermopylae.

BreadOfLife · Oct 10, 2018

Jane_Doe22 said:
I actually don't find the two ideas (listening to the Holy Spirit and a formalized church teaching system) to be incompatible at all. Rather, ideally they should always both being used, providing two different routes of confirmation. Of course, to determine which formalized church teaching system is most correct, I would refer to consulting the Holy Spirit rather than men.

One would also need to consult Scripture and HISTORY.

BreadOfLife · Oct 10, 2018

Enoch111 said:
In order to understand why the Catholic and Orthodox churches accept more books into their canon, you would have to look into the history of the Septuagint (LXX), which was a Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures, along with a great deal of corruption (from the second century BC).

After the Babylonian captivity (c 600 BC), many Jews remained and settled outside Palestine, and Greek became their primary language. Thus they sought a Greek translation of the Tanakh, and there is quite a bit of legend attached to the LXX. The bottom line is that they included many non-canonical books (the OT Apocrypha)in their Greek *Bible* .

Those books are: III & IV Kings,Tobit, Judith, Wisdom, Sirach, Baruch, Epistle of Jeremy, Prayer of Azarias, Susanna, Bel and the Dragon, I & II Maccabees, 1 Esdras, Prayer of Manasses, III & IV Maccabees.

Out of these, the Roman Catholic Church decided to retain seven so-called *Deuterocanonical Books* (over the objections of Catholic scholar Jerome). You will find them in Jerome's Latin Vulgate and the Douay-Rheims Bible. These are seven: Tobit, Judith, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus (Sirach), Baruch, and I & II Maccabees. Since they do not belong in the Hebrew Tanakh, the Reformers and Protestants rejected them as *Scripture*.

The Orthodox Bibles also added most of these books, plus some others from the OT Apocrypha. Since the Latin and Greek theologians were not familiar with Hebrew, they decided to go along with the Septuagint, and it was only Jerome who knew both Hebrew and Greek and recognized the difference between the OT canon and the Apocryphas.

WRONG.
As I already indicated – the plain fact of the matter is that there are some 200 quotes, references and allusions to the Deuterocanonical Books on the pages of the New Testament. You can read ALL of the false, anti-Catholic “histories” you want – but this fact remains.
To PROVE my point – I will give you a couple of examples:

Eph. 6:13-17 – The whole discussion of “armor” - helmet, breastplate, sword, shield follows Wis. 5:17-20.

Heb 11:35 – Paul teaches about the martyrdom of the mother and her sons described in 2 Macc. 7:1-42.

As for Jerome objecting to the Deuterocanonicals as Scripture – you are DEAD WRONG. This is a common Protestant LIE that has been spoon-fed to anti-Catholics over the centuries. Allow me to educate you . . .

Jerome himself never rejected the Deuterocanonicals. It was at the urging of the Jewish scholars who assisted him in translating the OT into the Vulgate that he even mentioned it. Jerome not only believed that they were Scripture – he CALLED them “Sacred Scripture” in his debates and used them to make his doctrinal points in his dialogs.

Do your homework before you make these kinds of embarrassing claims . . .

ScottA · Oct 10, 2018

More hate and evil fruit.

Jane_Doe22 · Oct 10, 2018

BreadOfLife said:
One would also need to consult Scripture and HISTORY.

The role history should play, and which history, is something you'll find a wide variety of opinions on.

BreadOfLife · Oct 10, 2018

ScottA said:
More hate and evil fruit.

And there’s nothing “hateful” or “evil” about the LIES I’ve exposed?

Nothing like good, old-fashioned hypocrisy . . .

BreadOfLife · Oct 10, 2018

Jane_Doe22 said:
The role history should play, and which history, is something you'll find a wide variety of opinions on.

Yup - and THAT’S why we have tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering sects of Protestantism – ALL teaching different doctrines based on different interpretations of Scripture AND history . . .

Jane_Doe22 · Oct 10, 2018

BreadOfLife said:
Yup - and THAT’S why we have tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering sects of Protestantism – ALL teaching different doctrines based on different interpretations of Scripture AND history . . .

And we also have many non-Protestant churches that rely on different weights/versions of history, have different beliefs from each other, and different practices.

Diversity in beliefs is is NO way a Protestant-only thing.

ScottA · Oct 10, 2018

BreadOfLife said:
And there’s nothing “hateful” or “evil” about the LIES I’ve exposed?

Nothing like good, old-fashioned hypocrisy . . .

What you do you were not called to, not to reviling, but to love and compassion.

amadeus · Oct 10, 2018

Mayflower said:
I have to be honest. Though I love writing, Ill collect books and not read them. Bahaha

Unless you have unlimited space eventually you will have to change your method of deciding what to retain and what not. I still have a small library housed my other miscellany in our 2nd bedroom called now my study. I used to go to the many new and used bookstores as well as garage sales and library sales to buy more books. But I have disposed of literally hundreds of books over the years simply to stay within my available space. Some I recall and I wish I had kept, but alas for that it is already too late...even if there were room. Now when I do purchased more I must also sort through what I already have in order to keep the sum total within the only room my wife will allow.

When disposing of books I chose from among the ones I had never read nor was likely to read and/or from the ones I had read but was never likely to read again. In both cases I know I made mistakes, but if I had tried to keep them all my wife would probably have put me out for making our little apartment into a book storage unit.

Give God the glory!

Mayflower · Oct 10, 2018

amadeus said:
Unless you have unlimited space eventually you will have to change your method of deciding what to retain and what not. I still have a small library housed my other miscellany in our 2nd bedroom called now my study. I used to go to the many new and used bookstores as well as garage sales and library sales to buy more books. But I have disposed of literally hundreds of books over the years simply to stay within my available space. Some I recall and I wish I had kept, but alas for that it is already too late...even if there were room. Now when I do purchased more I must also sort through what I already have in order to keep the sum total within the only room my wife will allow.

When disposing of books I chose from among the ones I had never read nor was likely to read and/or from the ones I had read but was never likely to read again. In both cases I know I made mistakes, but if I had tried to keep them all my wife would probably have put me out for making our little apartment into a book storage unit.

Give God the glory!

Right. I have two shelves of Ted Dekker and Frank Perretti. I am steering clear of fiction for awhile, but these are suspense novels with Christian imagery. Then Left Behind, and some older classics like Where the Red Fern Grows, and The Giver.

These Apocrypha and Deuteracanonical books though...would definitely be a bit different. I guess anything we read can influence our minds and colors the lenses on how we see God and the world... I can think too deeply at times. It can hurt the Holy Spirit moving in my life and gaining wisdom.

Enoch111 · Oct 10, 2018

Mayflower said:
These Apocrypha and Deuteracanonical books though...would definitely be a bit different.

Sirach (or Ecclesiasticus) is actually quite edifying in that it resembles Proverbs. Please note some sample verses:

All wisdom is from the Lord God, and hath been always with him, and is before all time.

It shall go well with him that feareth the Lord, and in the days of his end he shall be blessed.

Ye that fear the Lord, hope in him: and mercy shall come to you for your delight.

Be not a hypocrite in the sight of men, and let not thy lips be a stumblingblock to thee.

Mayflower · Oct 10, 2018

Enoch111 said:
Sirach (or Ecclesiasticus) is actually quite edifying in that it resembles Proverbs. Please note some sample verses:

All wisdom is from the Lord God, and hath been always with him, and is before all time.

It shall go well with him that feareth the Lord, and in the days of his end he shall be blessed.

Ye that fear the Lord, hope in him: and mercy shall come to you for your delight.

Be not a hypocrite in the sight of men, and let not thy lips be a stumblingblock to thee.

It sounds like a portion from what I was reading, but can't remember where from...I looked up Enoch and Book of Wisdom. And read the extension of Esther which loved Esther's prayer...of all the women of virtue in the Bible, Esther inspires me.

I might read portions at a time of different things, but just want to make sure I hold the Bible as my guide.

amadeus · Oct 10, 2018

Mayflower said:
Right. I have two shelves of Ted Dekker and Frank Perretti. I am steering clear of fiction for awhile, but these are suspense novels with Christian imagery. Then Left Behind, and some older classics like Where the Red Fern Grows, and The Giver.

These Apocrypha and Deuteracanonical books though...would definitely be a bit different. I guess anything we read can influence our minds and colors the lenses on how we see God and the world... I can think too deeply at times. It can hurt the Holy Spirit moving in my life and gaining wisdom.

Most of my fiction is gone. I once had a complete set of Perry Mason by Erle Stanley Gardner. Those are gone. I had complete set of Tarzan books plus the Mars and Venus books by Edgar Rice Burroughs. Those are gone. I still retain the complete Hornblower series by C.S Forester. My other books are Bibles in English, German and Spanish as well as all kinds of commentaries, lexicons and miscellaneous Bible reference books. I also retain basic grammars and extensive dictionaries for the German and Spanish languages. Most my other books relate to or house my still massive stamp collection. I have sold thousands and don't collect anymore but the space for what remains is great. My computer desk and my piano pretty much fill up the rest of the room wall to wall. Since my retirement in 2000 we have downsized 3-4 times but still the library is overwhelming. I disposed of my large collection of music books but scanned them all into the computer so I still can easily access anything I really want to see or use. If they would only close up all of the book stores in a university town and stop the library from having sales it might not be such a temptation to increase instead of decrease. Fortunately my wife is not a collector...be living in the yard to make room for collections.
Quite honestly now nothing holds my interest not for long, more than a good Bible study or a private session with the Lord, but for most all else but my mind is failing me anymore. No alzheimers, but simply the normal diminishing of old age.

Mayflower · Oct 10, 2018

amadeus said:
Most of my fiction is gone. I once had a complete set of Perry Mason by Erle Stanley Gardner. Those are gone. I had complete set of Tarzan books plus the Mars and Venus books by Edgar Rice Burroughs. Those are gone. I still retain the complete Hornblower series by C.S Forester. My other books are Bibles in English, German and Spanish as well as all kinds of commentaries, lexicons and miscellaneous Bible reference books. I also retain basic grammars and extensive dictionaries for the German and Spanish languages. Most my other books relate to or house my still massive stamp collection. I have sold thousands and don't collect anymore but the space for what remains is great. My computer desk and my piano pretty much fill up the rest of the room wall to wall. Since my retirement in 2000 we have downsized 3-4 times but still the library is overwhelming. I disposed of my large collection of music books but scanned them all into the computer so I still can easily access anything I really want to see or use. If they would only close up all of the book stores in a university town and stop the library from having sales it might not be such a temptation to increase instead of decrease. Fortunately my wife is not a collector...be living in the yard to make room for collections.
Quite honestly now nothing holds my interest not for long, more than a good Bible study or a private session with the Lord, but for most all else but my mind is failing me anymore. No alzheimers, but simply the normal diminishing of old age.

Cool. Do you read the Bible.in German and Spanish? I can sing them, but know only translations.

I haven't got into a really good book in awhile, but right now I am reading one and having a Bible.study with my friend. It is called "The Forgotten God." And it is about the Holy Spirit.

Uisdean · Oct 10, 2018

My copy of the Jerusalem Bible contains an epistle called "Jude" and in it I find a reference to the Book of Enoch and The Testament of the Twelve Patriarchs. Neither of these books are listed in the canon. The fact that Jude references them is not proof that they should be listed in the canon. However, and this is crucial to me, the canon must be decided by the concensus of the Elders. For one Elder to toss out a document that had been included in the canon just because he does not like it causes me serious concern. I think it would be really productive to study the reasons Luther did not want the 'deuterocanonical' documents before passing final judgment. Regardless of his reasons, I believe that the Elders of the Church, in concencus, should have the final say.

Therefore, whichever side you pick, you must be in error: since the schisms of the Church have made concensus impossible. So, in order to keep sane in this insane world, follow the ruling of those in spiritual authority over you.

Finally, @BreadOfLife has make a very good point in post #63: many of the New Testament images and ideas come from these documents. I find his passion sometimes/frequently irritating

but he is passionate about his beliefs. And if you can get past that, you will find that he does say some interesting and useful things. I can say that about a number of you: especially those of you who make me scream in frustration because what you say makes no sense to me.

I think BoL would do better to find a way to gently and kindly point our our mistaken ideas than to call them "lies". Obviously, we don't know what we are talking about if we don't understand Roman Church thought

!!! I once had a sales manager who told me that I needed to learn how to tell people to "go to Hell and make them look forward to the trip".

Philip James · Oct 10, 2018

amadeus said:
Most of my fiction is gone. I once had a complete set of Perry Mason by Erle Stanley Gardner. Those are gone. I had complete set of Tarzan books plus the Mars and Venus books by Edgar Rice Burroughs. Those are gone. I still retain the complete Hornblower series by C.S Forester. My other books are Bibles in English, German and Spanish as well as all kinds of commentaries, lexicons and miscellaneous Bible reference books. I also retain basic grammars and extensive dictionaries for the German and Spanish languages. Most my other books relate to or house my still massive stamp collection. I have sold thousands and don't collect anymore but the space for what remains is great. My computer desk and my piano pretty much fill up the rest of the room wall to wall. Since my retirement in 2000 we have downsized 3-4 times but still the library is overwhelming. I disposed of my large collection of music books but scanned them all into the computer so I still can easily access anything I really want to see or use. If they would only close up all of the book stores in a university town and stop the library from having sales it might not be such a temptation to increase instead of decrease. Fortunately my wife is not a collector...be living in the yard to make room for collections.
Quite honestly now nothing holds my interest not for long, more than a good Bible study or a private session with the Lord, but for most all else but my mind is failing me anymore. No alzheimers, but simply the normal diminishing of old age.

It sounds to me like youve lived a full and joyous life with a wife that is both wise and good for you ...

I came so that they might have life and have it more abundantly.

Give God the Glory!

Peace!

Mayflower · Oct 10, 2018

Uisdean said:
My copy of the Jerusalem Bible contains an epistle called "Jude" and in it I find a reference to the Book of Enoch and The Testament of the Twelve Patriarchs. Neither of these books are listed in the canon. The fact that Jude references them is not proof that they should be listed in the canon. However, and this is crucial to me, the canon must be decided by the concensus of the Elders. For one Elder to toss out a document that had been included in the canon just because he does not like it causes me serious concern. I think it would be really productive to study the reasons Luther did not want the 'deuterocanonical' documents before passing final judgment. Regardless of his reasons, I believe that the Elders of the Church, in concencus, should have the final say.

Therefore, whichever side you pick, you must be in error: since the schisms of the Church have made concensus impossible. So, in order to keep sane in this insane world, follow the ruling of those in spiritual authority over you.

Finally, @BreadOfLife has make a very good point in post #63: many of the New Testament images and ideas come from these documents. I find his passion sometimes/frequently irritating but he is passionate about his beliefs. And if you can get past that, you will find that he does say some interesting and useful things. I can say that about a number of you: especially those of you who make me scream in frustration because what you say makes no sense to me.

I think BoL would do better to find a way to gently and kindly point our our mistaken ideas than to call them "lies". Obviously, we don't know we are talking about if we don't understand Roman Church thought!!!

This is very interesting to study. Listening to the prompting of the Holy Spirit is very important. And the Bible is a good indication if it is the Holy Spirit speaking.

Marymog · Oct 11, 2018

Mayflower said:
So I have heard about the Book of Enoch, the Book of Wisdom, and Book of Macabees. They are from the Apocrypha right?

Do those who read this see it as "God breathed?" Like the Bible. Or.does it just provide more wisdom and insight. Do these books add or take away anything from what is in the Bible or just considered different books?

I am leery to read anything apart from the Bible, because I don't want to be lead astray. But where do these books come from if not divinely inspired?

I have read and studied about Bible Canon. But those books that were not included in the Bible, I am just curious if they are worth reading and for what purpose. Is it just for history and inspiration? Or are there different theologies the Bible doesn't speak of that can confuse. If not for my church family, I probably would have completely dug further into the Book of Mormon. But this is why I am cautious to read anything that isn't God's Word now.

I am just curious of yalls thoughts.

Hi Mayflower,

I love history and over the last several years I have started studying Christian History more in depth instead of just general world history.

Thru my studies of Christian History I learned that the early Church leaders disagreed for over 300 years on what books belong in Scripture. Different Churches in different regions of the world considered different writings as canonical. After several meetings The Church leaders finally agreed on which books belonged and are inspired. Historical records show that in about 367 AD, St. Athanasius came up with a list of 73 books for the Bible that he believed to be divinely inspired. This list was finally approved by Pope Damasus I in 382 AD, and was formally approved by the Church Council of Rome in that same year. Later Councils at Hippo (393 AD) and Carthage (397 AD) ratified this list of 73 books. In 405 AD, Pope Innocent I wrote a letter to the Bishop of Toulouse reaffirming this canon of 73 books. In 419 AD, the Council of Carthage reaffirmed this list, which Pope Boniface agreed to.

A result of The Reformation was the removing 7 books from the canon. All bibles, for the first 1500 years of Christianity prior to The Reformation, had 73 books.

Mary

BreadOfLife · Oct 11, 2018

Jane_Doe22 said:
And we also have many non-Protestant churches that rely on different weights/versions of history, have different beliefs from each other, and different practices.

Diversity in beliefs is is NO way a Protestant-only thing.

And it's not at ALL a "Catholic" thing . . .

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