Dispensationalism

Episkopos said:

This is NOT there in Scripture and can only be discovered by those who accept man made systems of theology.

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Since you know next to nothing about Bible prophecy, you should remain silent until you educate yourself. Sometimes silence is golden.

Episkopos said:

Such gall. You have it backwards as usual. How can you expect anyone to take you seriously?

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Those who have not been clouded by prejudice will take me seriously.

Episkopos said:

Show any biblical evidence that there are 2 Jerusalems in eternity.

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PROPHECIES OF ETERNAL JERUSALEM (ZION) UNDER GOD AND CHRIST

So the angel that communed with me said unto me, Cry thou, saying, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; I am jealous for Jerusalem and for Zion with a great jealousy. And I am very sore displeased with the heathen that are at ease: for I was but a little displeased, and they helped forward the affliction. Therefore thus saith the LORD; I am returned to Jerusalem with mercies: my house shall be built in it, saith the LORD of hosts, and a line shall be stretched forth upon Jerusalem. Cry yet, saying, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; My cities through prosperity shall yet be spread abroad; and the LORD shall yet comfort Zion, and shall yet choose Jerusalem. (Zech 1:14-17)

And said unto him, Run, speak to this young man, saying, Jerusalem shall be inhabited as towns without walls for the multitude of men and cattle therein: For I, saith the LORD, will be unto her a wall of fire round about, and will be the glory in the midst of her...Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the LORD. And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto thee. And the LORD shall inherit Judah his portion in the holy land, and shall choose Jerusalem again. (Zech 2:4,5,10-12)

And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; [CHRIST] and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD: Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both. (Zech 6:12,13)

Again the word of the LORD of hosts came to me, saying,Thus saith the LORD of hosts; I was jealous for Zion with great jealousy, and I was jealous for her with great fury. Thus saith the LORD; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the LORD of hosts the holy mountain. Thus saith the LORD of hosts; There shall yet old men and old women dwell in the streets of Jerusalem, and every man with his staff in his hand for very age. And the streets of the city shall be full of boys and girls playing in the streets thereof. Thus saith the LORD of hosts; If it be marvellous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in these days, should it also be marvellous in mine eyes? saith the LORD of hosts. Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Behold, I will save my people from the east country, and from the west country; And I will bring them, and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness. (Zech 8:1-8)

Thus saith the LORD of hosts; It shall yet come to pass, that there shall come people, and the inhabitants of many cities: And the inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying, Let us go speedily to pray before the LORD, and to seek the LORD of hosts: I will go also. Yea, many people and strong nations shall come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem, and to pray before the LORD. Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you. (Zech 8:20-23)

And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light. And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one. All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses. And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited... And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain... In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD'S house shall be like the bowls before the altar. Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts. (Zech 14:6-11;16,17, 20,21)

And there are many other prophecies which I have not even posted here or in other threads. As I said earlier, educate yourself in Bible prophecy before you say another word.

Enoch111 said:

What if it is not a "man made system" but the way that God has presented His revelations to man and this is "the mystery of His will"?

Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation* of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him (Eph 1:9,10)

HELPS Word-studies (from Bible Hub for Strong's 3622)
*3622 oikonomía (from 3621 /oikonoméō, "a steward, managing a household") – properly, a stewardship, management (administration), i.e. where a person looks after another's affairs (resources).

[A "dispensation" can also refer to a special period of time (management). But this is a secondary (not primary) meaning of 3622 (oikonomía).]

1. So while the primary meaning of oikonomia is a stewardship or an administration, the secondary meaning is a special period of time.

2. Now if there is a dispensation of the "fulness (or completion) of times" (which is the eternal state in the Kingdom of God and Christ), it follows that there have been other dispensations or periods of time before that.

3. The previous dispensations generally coincide with God's covenants as shown in Scripture. There was no covenant with Adam (as many claim), but there were covenants with Noah and Abraham, and then with Israel (the Old Covenant), followed by the New Covenant ratifed with the shed blood of Christ. And now we live in the Church Age or the Gospel Age under the New Covenant, but that is not where everything ends. We still expect the Resurrection/Rapture, the second coming of Christ, the Millennium, and then the establishment of the New Heavens and the New Earth (which will usher in the Dispensation of the Fulness of Times).

4. All of this is discovered by a careful study of the Word of God, and no honest person can deny that these are the things revealed in Scripture. What is also clearly revealed in Scripture is that God has an eternal plan and purpose for redeemed and restored Israel ON EARTH, which runs parallel to God's eternal plan and purpose for the Church IN THE NEW JERUSALEM. The two Jerusalems will exist for eternity and will also be in communication with each other. This is all there in Scripture and can be discovered by those who reject man made systems of theology.

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Like Paul said in the scripture you quoted, "All things in Christ...." That's what I'm interested in! Your theology includes SOME things, but not ALL things. I believe that the whole Bible includes "all things." Every manmade system singles out certain scriptures that fit in the system's theological box.

Did you watch the video??? Steve gave many scriptures backing up his preterist views--just like you have! He's as sure about his beliefs as you are. But his tone was much different than yours. I didn't hear him saying that all Christians should be preterists, or that's the only way to interpret Bible prophecy! I'm guessing he's older than you and has been around the theological block a few more times than you have.

Edit: You said this to someone who I'm guessing is older than you: "As I said earlier, educate yourself...before you say another word." How bossy and disrespectful!

Dave L said:

Jesus' kingdom comes without observation. “Now when the people saw the miraculous sign that Jesus performed, they began to say to one another, “This is certainly the Prophet who is to come into the world.” Then Jesus, because he knew they were going to come and seize him by force to make him king, withdrew again up the mountainside alone.” (John 6:14–15)

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Observable or not, it is. And anyone who is in Christ, anyone who is, or becomes, part of the Church, becomes part of the Kingdom. Wouldn't you say?

Reading this thread, I just praise God for the simplicity that is in Christ Jesus.

With love in Christ Jesus
Our risen and glorified,
Saviour, Lord and Head.
Chris

Naomi25 said:

Observable or not, it is. And anyone who is in Christ, anyone who is, or becomes, part of the Church, becomes part of the Kingdom. Wouldn't you say?

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Absolutely. We are in the kingdom and it's forever. not for a measly 1000 years of sickness and suffering.

Dave L said:

Absolutely. We are in the kingdom and it's forever. not for a measly 1000 years of sickness and suffering.

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I've never understood what the purpose of the "millennium" is. Apart from not seeing it supported in scripture, why would God set us up in what, essentially, is a "do over"? Christ comes and reinstates the world as it was, more or less, in the garden. No more getting eaten by lions, tigers and bears...oh my. People don't die because of sin (except some clause about hitting 100 and not believing in Christ...but that's only for those in 'natural bodies', which, goodness, don't get me started, has so many issues!). So, essentially all is wonderful...except, like in Eden, people can, and will, choose to sin and rebel against God and against Jesus. So much so that at the end of this period, when Satan is 'released', there's another massive battle again...and then it's really over. Basically, it's like all of human history stuffed into 1000 years. What's they point?

I know their answers: to give others a chance to choose. To fulfill the promises to Israel for an earthly kingdom...etc.
But when I weigh it against scriptural texts, I find those answers lacking. God gives us one chance to chose...this life. No one makes it through Christ's return without being judged and given their new bodies. Israel HAS received all it's promises in their Messiah. "All promises are yes and amen" in Christ. Will they receive more? Perhaps, but not a single person, Jew or Gentile, can point to anything that is left undone or unfulfilled in Christ. He is everything. And that's why there won't be a literal 1000 year earthly reign. He already reigns and will never stop reigning. His reign stretches across both unseen and seen realms. We cannot limit it.

Taken said:

Huh? Read Revelations 20

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I've read it, thanks. And I think building a doctrine as 'solid' as the Millennium...as many have...on that chapter alone...on that reference to 1000 years alone, is not reasonable. Not when we consider the usage of numbers throughout the book (symbolic), or the implications a literal millennium would have on some of the very clear teaching throughout the rest of scripture...scripture that is consider much more 'understandable' than Revelation.

I agree, you lack understanding of the knowledge.

God is the one to ask for His Understanding.

God Bless,
taken

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This presupposes that I haven't asked for clarity...or been given it.
Look...it's actually quite simple...to me, anyway. Other scriptures, mostly NT, but OT as well, state many certainties that we can be sure of, and it is these things that, to me, make a literal 1000 year period on earth questionable.
For example: As I mentioned before...how...how? is any person supposed to get through Christ's return to earth without being judged? And when people are judged, at his return (simultaneous event, by the way) they are given new bodies to either enjoy or endure the rewards or punishments.


The Final Judgment

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats...And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” -Matthew 25:31–32, 46

“Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live...Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment. -John 5:25, 28-29


I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:

“Death is swallowed up in victory.”
“O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?” -1 Corinthians 15:50–55

For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. -1 Corinthians 15:22–26


The progression of thought here is easy to see. When Jesus returns, people (both dead and alive) will be raised, judged, given imperishable bodies and moved either into 'everlasting life or judgement'. This is when death is defeated, the last enemy. And it all happens at Christ's return, at his coming.

The other clear idea scripture presents that makes it hard to see a literal 1000 year earthly reign, is the Two Age model. Do a search through scripture for "this age" and "the age to come". "This age" always talks about temporal things that are passing away, sinful things, earthly things. "The age to come" talks of the eternal...things that never end, where sin and death are no more. These two ages, and the way they are set up, leaves no space in between for a time where there is 'some of each', in a way.

And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. -Matthew 12:32

The field is the world, and the good seed is the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels. Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth...
So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
-Matthew 13:38–42, 49-50

..who will not receive a hundredfold now in this time, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions, and in the age to come eternal life. -Mark 10:30

..far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. -Ephesians 1:21

..but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and to the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage, -Luke 20:35

..who will not receive many times more in this time, and in the age to come eternal life.” -Luke 18:30

..who gave himself for our sins to deliver us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, to whom be the glory forever and ever. Amen. -Galatians 1:4–5

I could post many, many more verses, and then go on to how Christ's coming is also linked to the renewal of the cosmos and earth as well, but the post is already lengthy. My point is this: There is much, much more to suggest we come at Rev 20 from a different perspective than "it HAS to be a literal 1000 years here on the earth". Why must it? Where does it suggest it HAS to be? There seems more passages dedicated to telling us that when Jesus returns, we are judged, given new bodies, the world is remade and we enter into the new age.

I am not insisting my view is correct. But it is time that others began admitting the same about their view. There are several views that sit within Orthodoxy, and there is a reason for that. That reason is: they derive their views from bible verses and a lot of study and prayer. Disagree if you must, but why must we start calling our brothers and sisters "unknowledgeable" or "lacking in understanding". What I lack, is an agreement with you. That doesn't mean I'm stupid, however.

Naomi25 said:

I've read it, thanks. And I think building a doctrine as 'solid' as the Millennium...as many have...on that chapter alone...on that reference to 1000 years alone, is not reasonable.

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What makes you think that the doctrine of the Millennium is based upon Revelation 20 exclusively? Have you searched the Scriptures from Genesis to Revelation to find the underlying truth of this expressed throughout the Bible?

The first thing to note about the Millennium is that the Holy Spirit -- the Author of Revelation -- repeats "a thousand years" and "the thousand years" SIX TIMES within seven verses. When something is repeated even twice, it is for emphasis. So what God is saying is that you (or anyone else) cannot lightly walk away from the truth of the Millennium. Hence the repetition.

You've quoted many verses without putting them in proper sequence or perspective. Once you put them in their proper sequence, the Millennium will fit right in. Indeed it occurs chronologically between the second coming of Christ and the Great White Throne Judgment. Which is then followed by the New Heavens and the New Earth.

"The end of the age (this present evil age)" is signified by the second coming of Christ. "The age to come" includes the Millennium, the New Heavens and the New Earth, and the eternal state.

So for anyone to claim that the Millennium is presently in progress when we know that this is "the present evil age" means self-delusion and fantasy.

Enoch111 said:

What makes you think that the doctrine of the Millennium is based upon Revelation 20 exclusively? Have you searched the Scriptures from Genesis to Revelation to find the underlying truth of this expressed throughout the Bible?

The first thing to note about the Millennium is that the Holy Spirit -- the Author of Revelation -- repeats "a thousand years" and "the thousand years" SIX TIMES within seven verses. When something is repeated even twice, it is for emphasis. So what God is saying is that you (or anyone else) cannot lightly walk away from the truth of the Millennium. Hence the repetition.

You've quoted many verses without putting them in proper sequence or perspective. Once you put them in their proper sequence, the Millennium will fit right in. Indeed it occurs chronologically between the second coming of Christ and the Great White Throne Judgment. Which is then followed by the New Heavens and the New Earth.

"The end of the age (this present evil age)" is signified by the second coming of Christ. "The age to come" includes the Millennium, the New Heavens and the New Earth, and the eternal state.

So for anyone to claim that the Millennium is presently in progress when we know that this is "the present evil age" means self-delusion and fantasy.

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I think a helpful thing to remember is that the church is a heavenly people heading for the Rapture in the air, while Israel is an earthly people, which will enter into earthly blessings.

Enoch111 said:

What makes you think that the doctrine of the Millennium is based upon Revelation 20 exclusively? Have you searched the Scriptures from Genesis to Revelation to find the underlying truth of this expressed throughout the Bible?

The first thing to note about the Millennium is that the Holy Spirit -- the Author of Revelation -- repeats "a thousand years" and "the thousand years" SIX TIMES within seven verses. When something is repeated even twice, it is for emphasis. So what God is saying is that you (or anyone else) cannot lightly walk away from the truth of the Millennium. Hence the repetition.

You've quoted many verses without putting them in proper sequence or perspective. Once you put them in their proper sequence, the Millennium will fit right in. Indeed it occurs chronologically between the second coming of Christ and the Great White Throne Judgment. Which is then followed by the New Heavens and the New Earth.

"The end of the age (this present evil age)" is signified by the second coming of Christ. "The age to come" includes the Millennium, the New Heavens and the New Earth, and the eternal state.

So for anyone to claim that the Millennium is presently in progress when we know that this is "the present evil age" means self-delusion and fantasy.

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Fantasy and delusion? No. Just difference in interpretation of the text. But thank you for highlighting my point that people entering into these conversations need to back away from the slights upon character. How are we to have civil conversations about these topics when it's "foolish" this, "delusional" that. Have I once said that you, or your end times belief is a joke, or idiotic, or foolish? Yet you seem fine in dishing out those comments to me. If you want to have a real conversation about eschatology, drop the insinuations and just get down to scripture please.

I am aware that literal Millennialists point to other scriptures to back up the notion. But without Revelation 20, none of these other, vague references would stand, at all. So if Revelation 20 can be questioned, validly, in regards to literal time (not a literal 1000 years), or that the time in question must be a physical reign upon the earth, then the Millennium falls into doubt, or at least must find it's strength elsewhere. My point is: it cannot, especially against all the other passages that leave no room for such a time or such a place as the Millennium.

Yes, a thousand years is repeated in Rev 20 many times. And no, we should no ignore what it is saying...all scripture is God breathed and profitable. But when we reach Rev 20, we've just been through the whole book, and seen how again and again (and yes, I know you disagree) numbers are NOT used literally. You yourself have admitted that God uses numbers symbolically at times. And then we have Peter saying things like this:

But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. -2 Peter 3:8

Time is not the same for God, or for us. He uses it differently, represents it differently. If he wants to (and does) use the number 7 to, all throughout scripture represent the completion of his plan and the fullness of his perfection, then why on earth do people have a hard time accepting that he might be using 1000 to represent something as well.

And as for me quoting passages out of context...the context in question was their references to the "ages". The larger context of the discourse they were in are not strictly needed to see whether "this age" refers to things temporal, and "the age to come" refers to things eternal. I'm sorry if you didn't see it that way. But the simple fact is...there is no mention of a 'time in between', you have to read it 'in between' the text. If you don't place it there, it's just not there...not in the text.

Taken said:

Did scripture teach you to "build a doctrine"....or Believe Jesus' doctrine?

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I'm not sure I get your point here. You seem to suggest that one is "the wrong choice". But despite that, how is either wrong? Obviously we 'believe Jesus'. We read his words in scripture, we see them to be true, the words of God.
But his words don't float there in isolation, one sentence at a time. His teachings, and that of his apostles, come together to help us understand what he is saying more fully. That is, essentially, all doctrine is. Gathering together his teachings into like subjects to learn more about what he is saying. And how can that be wrong? It isn't. So...yeah...not sure of your point.

Why would you believe that the Lord established, TIME ... hours, days, months, years.... and then claim well, not literally?

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Because he's God...and that means he can do whatever he wants, with whatever he created...which is everything?
Look, God uses numbers symbolically. He just does. All throughout scripture he does. Even Dispensational teachers openly claim that. If you don't believe me, just go and look it up...I know for a fact that Jack Kelley did (he has passed now I believe):
Symbolic Use Of Numbers In The Bible – Grace thru faith

And I know Tom Hughes has mentioned it in his messages as well. Both are Dispensationalist, so it's not just my understanding of the use of numbers.

But despite their acknowledgement that God does, indeed, use numbers in such manner, they for some reason deny any such possibility when they come to Revelation, the most symbol laden, vision heavy book there is in scripture!

Why do you look in Scripture for "the understanding of Scripture?.....When Scripture reveals Knowledge and the Understanding of the Knowledge is given an individual By the Lord God Himself?

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I'm a little unsure what you're saying here. Are you saying that there is zero need to let scripture interpret scripture, as God will "tell" you what everything means, independent of his own word?
Because, I must question that interpretation. Yes, the Spirit affirms things within us, and can move powerfully to let us know things. But why wouldn't God use the word he has given us to inform us...when he gave us his word to inform us?
Isn't that a little like writing someone a letter, but then telling them not to read it because you'll call?
God gave us his word for a reason. And we move in tune with the Spirit more and more when we spend time reading and contemplating his word.

You just admitted;
You pick and choose what to believe and what you are not sure of you question, AND you have not sought HE who Has the Understanding.

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Um, I'm not sure I admitted anything of the sort. In fact, I would say that I'm arguing the opposite. My point is that I read Rev 20 as I do, because of the weight of other scripture. I cannot pick or choose. I am not starting at a point I think is true, and like: the Millennium, and then arguing for it by...what? "the Spirit told me so"? Is that what I am supposed to surmise from your arguments here?
You've said that forming doctrines from scripture is wrong. You've also said that we shouldn't use scripture to understand scripture. That essentially means you want to read a single thing, then believe it because...you feel it? What proof, apart from this feeling that could, or could not, be 'the spirit' guiding you, do you have then? This is WHY we need to use scripture to both understand and build an basis, or doctrine, around that feeling. That is why we are told to "test" the spirits. How do you suppose he wants us to do that testing? Against his word, that's how.

You are running completely DIFFERENT events all together, and expecting ONE result.

There IS an "ORDER" To WHAT God does.
Then to consider the millions of "INDIVIDUALS", of what and when "THEY" individually ARE or ARE NOT, choosing to "DO" according TO Gods ORDER, determines WHAT WILL or WILL NOt "APPLY" to that Individual.
(In short, that is called dividing the word of truth).

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I suppose it's all a matter of perspective. Because when I read each account of Christ's return in the NT, I see it as a single event. No matter how hard I attempt to fit in other events...and I've honestly tried...I can't see them.

Yes, I do believe there is an order to what God does, as there is a reason. But I believe he's given us a fairly clear view of what to expect on "that day".

And, sorry once again, but I simply cannot make sense of your sentence that's chocka block
full of caps and quotations.

By your own writing in this post, you reveal you run events all together.

You are the one who said in POST # 150

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I happily acknowledge that I see the events as falling together. I did not try and hide this.
My point was that just because I differed in opinion to Dispensationalists, did not mean that I "didn't have a clue". I know what you believe, I just think differently. But I don't feel the need to insult you to say it.

I AGREED with you, about your lack of "UNDERSTANDING"....and then you post...

That IS weird!

You appear to be offended if someone calls you "knowledgeable".....AND offended if someone Agrees with what you have said of yourself.

God Bless,
Taken

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My mis-type, I meant "unknowledgeable"...which you probably could have guessed. But thanks for pointing it out, I've changed it.
And really...you "agreed that I had a lack of understanding". You do realize that saying that someone has a "lack of understanding" is just a PC way of calling them a dope.
Look...this Board has a rule against slagging off against people. All I'm trying to point out is that people are tending to use a multiplicity of terms to do just that in these conversations, rather than just talk about the doctrines, and systems. That's a good way for tempers to flare, feelings to get hurt, and ZERO glory to be given to God, even in a conversation that discusses differences. Surely our conversational skill should be such that we can carry on a chat that will achieve a good debate that will honor God still?

farouk said:

I think a helpful thing to remember is that the church is a heavenly people heading for the Rapture in the air, while Israel is an earthly people, which will enter into earthly blessings.

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Exactly. To keep it even simpler, the eternal home of the Church is the New Jerusalem, whereas that of redeemed Israel is the land of Israel (from the Nile to the Euphrates).