Are we destined to heaven or hell when we are born?

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Semachiah

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Apr 7, 2008
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Shalom,
If foreseen faith was in view
No faith is not foreseen it is "believed". When it is "seen" it is real and not does one have or need faith that it will be.Jhn 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed [are] they that have not seen, and [yet] have believed.
 

Wakka

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Jun 4, 2007
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In Romans 8And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him,[j] who[k] have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. I don't think freewill is a concept the bible talks about. Did Judas have free will? What about the Egyptian emporer?
They're taking things out of the box. God isn't affected by time, so He's already seen the millennium, He already has your name in the book of life. God lives in the past and future (for us). He's timeless. That's how he knows what you'll do in your life. It's hard to explain, it's kind of a paradox.
 

biblicalthought

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(Semachiah;46619)
Shalom,No faith is not foreseen it is "believed". When it is "seen" it is real and not does one have or need faith that it will be.Jhn 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed [are] they that have not seen, and [yet] have believed.
I think you have missed my point. The verse that was being discussed was Romans 8:29, right?
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
The argument was that predestination is based on God's foreknowledge of people's professions of faith according to their freewill. This view says something to the effect of God looking into the future before the foundation of the world, and seeing who would choose Him. Therefore His foreknowledge of professions of faith by persons become the basis for predestination.I simply stated that according to the grammar of the text, this argument will not work because God's foreknowledge is not tied to a "what" but rather a "whom." If faith was in view, Paul would have written, For what he foreknew, not for whom He foreknew.A question to ask then is, how would this be predestination? Wouldn't this be more like a selfdestination? I mean, if it were to happen regardless, why would destiny need to be predisposed at all.Another question is, what about those that God saw in His foreknowledge that wouldn't choose Him based on their freewill. Did He create them and give them life knowing that they would never believe? If so, then those predestined to hell never really had a chance.How does all this get worked out?
 

Semachiah

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Shalom,Stephen, I understand and we agree!Wakka on the other hand missed the part in Gen 1:26 where YHVH limited HIMself and the rest of what Stephen just stated.
 

eternalarcadia

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Nov 15, 2007
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If God already knows where your destined to go at death, then why does he even create people that he knows are destined for hell. Why doesn't he create people knowing they'll go to heaven?
 

archierieus

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May 5, 2008
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In Romans 8And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him,[j] who[k] have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. I don't think freewill is a concept the bible talks about. Did Judas have free will? What about the Egyptian emporer?
Romans 8:29 answers the question I think. "For those God foreknew He also predestined . . ." The Greek word is 'proginoskw' which literally means, 'to know ahead of time.' God knows the future. From the beginning, He knew who would choose to follow Jesus. Those who would choose to accept Him, He predestined. NOT in the sense of mandating their decision or their destiny, but in the sense of recognizing their decision to follow Jesus. The Bible says that 'whosoever believeth on Him will not perish." And Jesus said, "I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto Myself."As for Judas, of course he had free will. Pharoah? Most definitely. Scripture says that Pharaoh 'hardened his heart.'Dave
 

archierieus

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I simply stated that according to the grammar of the text, this argument will not work because God's foreknowledge is not tied to a "what" but rather a "whom." If faith was in view, Paul would have written, For what he foreknew, not for whom He foreknew.
Are you relying on the Nestle-Aland Greek text? Translating it 'whom' would not change the meaning. Jn. 1 says that Jesus was "the true Light, which lightens every man coming into the world." And Jesus said, "I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto Myself." (ch. 12:32) Jesus is drawing everyone. The Spirit is reaching out to everyone. Those whom God knew ahead of time would accept the Spirit's drawing, and accept Jesus, "as many as received Him," (Jn. 1) are the ones who are recognized as sons and daughters of God.Dave
 

Semachiah

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Shalom,Actually "Freewill" is a Biblical principal:Lev 22:18 Speak unto Aaron, and to his sons, and unto all the children of Israel, and say unto them, Whatsoever [he be] of the house of Israel, or of the strangers in Israel, that will offer his oblation for all his vows, and for all his freewill offerings, which they will offer unto the LORD for a burnt offering;Lev 22:21 And whosoever offereth a sacrifice of peace offerings unto the LORD to accomplish [his] vow, or a freewill offering in beeves or sheep, it shall be perfect to be accepted; there shall be no blemish therein.Lev 22:23 Either a bullock or a lamb that hath any thing superfluous or lacking in his parts, that mayest thou offer [for] a freewill offering; but for a vow it shall not be accepted.Lev 23:38 Beside the sabbaths of the LORD, and beside your gifts, and beside all your vows, and beside all your freewill offerings, which ye give unto the LORD.Num 15:3 And will make an offering by fire unto the LORD, a burnt offering, or a sacrifice in performing a vow, or in a freewill offering, or in your solemn feasts, to make a sweet savour unto the LORD, of the herd, or of the flock:Num 29:39 These [things] ye shall do unto the LORD in your set feasts, beside your vows, and your freewill offerings, for your burnt offerings, and for your meat offerings, and for your drink offerings, and for your peace offerings.Deu 12:6 And thither ye shall bring your burnt offerings, and your sacrifices, and your tithes, and heave offerings of your hand, and your vows, and your freewill offerings, and the firstlings of your herds and of your flocks:Deu 12:17 Thou mayest not eat within thy gates the tithe of thy corn, or of thy wine, or of thy oil, or the firstlings of thy herds or of thy flock, nor any of thy vows which thou vowest, nor thy freewill offerings, or heave offering of thine hand:Deu 16:10 And thou shalt keep the feast of weeks unto the LORD thy God with a tribute of a freewill offering of thine hand, which thou shalt give [unto the LORD thy God], according as the LORD thy God hath blessed thee:Deu 23:23 That which is gone out of thy lips thou shalt keep and perform; [even] a freewill offering, according as thou hast vowed unto the LORD thy God, which thou hast promised with thy mouth.2Ch 31:14 And Kore the son of Imnah the Levite, the porter toward the east, [was] over the freewill offerings of God, to distribute the oblations of the LORD, and the most holy things.Ezr 1:4 And whosoever remaineth in any place where he sojourneth, let the men of his place help him with silver, and with gold, and with goods, and with beasts, beside the freewill offering for the house of God that [is] in Jerusalem.Ezr 3:5 And afterward [offered] the continual burnt offering, both of the new moons, and of all the set feasts of the LORD that were consecrated, and of every one that willingly offered a freewill offering unto the LORD.Ezr 7:13 I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and [of] his priests and Levites, in my realm, which are minded of their own freewill to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee.Ezr 7:16 And all the silver and gold that thou canst find in all the province of Babylon, with the freewill offering of the people, and of the priests, offering willingly for the house of their God which [is] in Jerusalem:Ezr 8:28 And I said unto them, Ye [are] holy unto the LORD; the vessels [are] holy also; and the silver and the gold [are] a freewill offering unto the LORD God of your fathers.Psa 119:108 Accept, I beseech thee, the freewill offerings of my mouth, O LORD, and teach me thy judgments. What is the ultimate "Freewill offering?" To lay ones life down for another!Y'SHUA showed us this when He laid His life down to do only that of His and our FATHER...Jhn 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.andJhn 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.Lastly...Luk 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.Did Judas have 'freewill?' Absolutely! He could have made the same choice we are given. The same choice Y'SHUA made often to include when He was on the cross and after He had risen...Jam 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.But why would Judas have made this choice? Actually because he was such a Zealot for YHVH that YHVH actually knew HE could trust him to do this and yet do the right thing thereafter...Mat 27:3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,Judas repented! He didn't understand but he did know where or how to turn to receive help, forgiveness!What of the hardening of Pharaoh's heart then? He chose of his own freewill to treat the Jews unfairly before YHVH. He told Moses that he would release them if YHVH would remove the plagues and then did not - Ex 8:1-15Did YHVH create everything or not? If HE did then HE foreknew ALL of us, did HE not? According to The Scriptures...Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.What is it saying here? It is saying that since HE has foreknowledge of ALL of us that HE has made ALL of us to be conformed to the image of Y'SHUA. HE has made us ALL for this but not ALL will come to the knowledge of The CHRIST will they? Why not? because we still have a freewill choice just as the angels had when a third chose to follow satan, just as Judas and Pharaoh had, just as Y'SHUA had!
 

Learning

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Dec 12, 2007
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I am sure I missed it while reading all these wonderful responses. Even though we have free will, if we pray for change will God help us? Do we have to struggle to get rid bad habits and doubts? Sometimes I wish I could be robot and have Him completely take over.
 

archierieus

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May 5, 2008
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Hi Learniing,Yes, God has promised to help us. As I understand the Bible, and my personal experience mirrors this, God helps us at every step. God reaches out to us, He awakens in us the desire for a better life, He draws us to the cross to behold Jesus dying for our sins, He leads us to repentance (Rom. 2), He gives us faith, He gives us the desire and strength to will and do "His good pleasure," He gives us victory over temptation. Learning, all you need to do is give it all to Jesus, ask Him to take charge of your life, to purify you from every defilement, and make you like Jesus. He will help you and lead you every step of the way, all the way to the kingdom. All He asks us to do is to follow Him, and He helps us do that. Like a parent helping a toddler to walk.Dave
 

Semachiah

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Apr 7, 2008
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Shalom,(Learning;48899)
I am sure I missed it while reading all these wonderful responses. Even though we have free will, if we pray for change will God help us? Do we have to struggle to get rid bad habits and doubts? Sometimes I wish I could be robot and have Him completely take over.
Quite possibly!We are told that Y'SHUA had to "learn" obedience.We are told that we have to "work out" our salvation.We are told that we "MUST take up our cross and follow" Y'SHUA, etc....Yet there are also times when things are told to us like HE will make a way for us or give us an escape but these too carry the implications that this will come in the midst of something harder.This is not a cake-walk as I'm sure you can realize and the deeper you get in this the harder and the easier it becomes.Luk 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.At the very end of His earthly existence Y'SHUA faced His greatest challenge from satan and yet as hard as this was on Him it was also the easiest thing for Him to do. It was obviously hard but He was so well developed in His belief in YHVH that He could simply lay it down and allow YHVH to have HIS will within His own life.One of my old phrases goes, "Greater level; greater devils!" The further we move into YHVH the greater the resistance we face and yet greater is the strength is within us to face that new level of resistance.
 

eternalarcadia

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Nov 15, 2007
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If God knew somebody was going to choose to follow evil, then why would he create them to watch them fall into the pit.
 

thisistheendtimes

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Mar 3, 2008
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Thebadguy,Your poem and apology to God were beautiful.You sound really repentant/sorrowful. God likes that.Do you know that water also flowed from Christ's side at the cross? You would think that whatever the water represents is very important to our walk with God, wouldn't you?"rivers of living water" (John 7:38, Revelation 7:16). Tears of sorrow (in the heart...sadness) that misfortune/suffering happen will cause you to be "poor in spirit" (Matthew 5:3).All I know about "karma" is that it is Buddhist terminology, but it refers to 'what goes around, comes around' (poetic justice). Poetic justice was built into all reality (nature) by God (poetic justice is subtle and is nothing that you should really take personally). You're definitely not experiencing any PUNISHMENT, God is NOT A PUNISHER (1 John 4:18). Everything BEFORE the spirit was given, John 7:39 (old worship habits, old scriptures, Bereans, etc) is not a valid means of devotion for the New Testament Christian, EXCEPT The Heavenly Father's name FOREVER (Exodus 3:14, "I am who I am"). In order for us to TRULY relate to Him, we have to know who we [really] are [inside] and be fully aware of our shortcomings. You seem to be fully aware of yourself and have established a strong sense of 'SELF' (conscience). God warns us about "self abasement"/abandonment ( Colossians 2:18 and 23). That you retain your sense of self (and a passion for truth, 2 Thessalonians 2:10) is a blessing from The Lord. Adam and Eve ate of the tree of conscience and we have to learn how to use that knowledge properly (Hebrews 5:14).If we become good students of God's spirit, we will learn to clearly divide (as with a sword) between right and wrong/evil (right is right and wrong is wrong and never the twain shall meet) so that the change from right to wrong will be sudden (with no middle ground, "no variation or shadow", James 1:17). Jesus purified our SOULS, but learning from God's spirit to distinguish clearly between right and wrong will also purify our conscience (Hebrews 9:14). "WALK BY THE SPIRIT" (Galatians 5:16 and 25). Read the introductory doctrine of Jesus (Hebrews 6:1) which is the "word of truth" (2 Timothy 2:15, Ephesians 1:13, John 14:6), but the word that we should live by is the "SWORD of the spirit" (Ephesians 6:17). Live under the PERFECT law (James 1:25 and 2:12) because the 'sin laws' were abolished (Ephesians 2:15) and do the works of God (John 6:28 and 29) so that you can be justified IN CHRIST (Galatians 2:16 and 17). Those outside the Body of Christ have chosen to find their wisdom in parables (Matthew 13:13). True worshipers are a "FRIEND of God" (James 2:23) and do not know God as a 'taskmaster', but as "ABBA FATHER" (Romans 8:15, Galatians 4:6).A "MORE EXCELLENT WAY" (1 Corinthians 12:31) of worship is "the GREATEST of these" (1 Corinthians 13:13).True Christianity is not a faith, it is a LOVE (God is LOVE).
 

Thomas D

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Nov 27, 2007
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No offence Semachiah, but in your post #15 you said Ro.8:29said we were going to heaven. It does not say anything of the sort.Be more careful or folks can't take you seriously.