When was the last time you heard the word Rapture in your Church?

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Keraz

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Which Bible do you have in order to make this preposterous claim? Even before Christ was crucified, He made it perfectly clear that God does indeed intend to take His people to Heaven (John 14:1-3).

Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

So let's ask ourselves some pointed questions:
1. Who is "my Father" in this context? It is God the Father
2. Where is "my Father's house"? It is in Heaven (God's Heaven, the third heaven)
3. Where are those mansions? In the New Jerusalem, which is a heavenly city, and presently in Heaven.
4. Where is Christ at this very moment? Seated at the right hand of God the Father in Heaven.
5. What is "I will come again"? It is the event known as the Rapture, or more precisely the Resurrection/Rapture.
6. Where will Christ take His saints? To where He is, which is in Heaven.
7. Why did Jesus say "Let not your heart be troubled"? He was already anticipating all the nonsense about the Church going through the Tribulation and the Great Tribulation.

So how can anyone with even the slightest acquaintance with the Bible make such a PREPOSTEROUS CLAIM -- "Nowhere does scripture say God intends to take His people to heaven."

As a matter of fact ALL THE OT AND NT SAINTS ARE IN HEAVEN AT PRESENT, within the New Jerusalem.

But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, [THE NT SAINTS] and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, [THE OT SAINTS] And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. (Heb 12:22-24)

Here Paul draws aside the veil and reveals to us the reality of Heaven, and the heavenly city within Heaven. What do we see as presently in Heaven?

1. An innumerable company of angels.
2. All the NT saints -- "the Church of the firstborn"
3. God the Father, the Judge of all
4. All the OT saints -- "the spirits of just [justified] men made perfect"
5. Jesus, the Mediator of the New Covenant
6. The blood of Christ -- "the blood of sprinkling"

Frankly, I get really annoyed when people come along and make categorical statements which have no basis in Scripture. That is really harmful to those who may be new to the faith.
Preposterous claim? I repeat: Nowhere does the Bible say that God will take His people to heaven.
John 14:1-3 does NOT say it.
1,2,3,4 Correct
5/ Refers to the glorious Return of Jesus for His Millennium reign.
6/ His saints go with Him, to Jerusalem.
7/ Let not your heart be troubled.....For the Lord will protect and help you during all that must happen. Isaiah 41:13, Psalms 23

Hebrews 12:22-24 does NOT say it.
Paul was talking about how we Christians don't have to face the frightening spectacle that the ancient Israelites did. Hebrews 12:18-21
Then Paul goes on in Hebrews 12:25-29, to say how there is coming a tremendous shaking of all things and how God is a devouring fire, which refers to the terrible Sixth Seal Day of fire, earthquakes, storms and tsunamis.
Your 'cherry picking' of verses 22-24, only say that we Christians have our names enrolled in heaven. In the Book of Life. Malachi 3:16-18

What is REALLY harmful to those new to Christianity, is to teach them they don't need to do anything; we will all be whisked off to heaven at the first sign of trouble. A doctrine that has absolutely no basis in scripture.
I note in Hebrews 12:7-13, that the Lord's discipline must be endured by every Christian. In fact; if you wish to escape it, then you are illegitimate and not a child of God at all. verse 8
 
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GISMYS_7

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John 14:3==Jesus says==And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.
 

Stumpmaster

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I suppose I will be sitting in the audience next Sunday..... AND paying attention.
Hang on, Willie T. God wants you active in His priesthood of believers, not passive in an audience of pew-sitters.

1Pe 2:5
(5) You also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
Rev 1:5-6
(5) And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
(6) And has made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
 

Naomi25

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Which Bible do you have in order to make this preposterous claim? Even before Christ was crucified, He made it perfectly clear that God does indeed intend to take His people to Heaven (John 14:1-3).

Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Hi! Just a quick question, because I've often wondered at this verse when Dispensationalists use it as a proof that Jesus 'must' come again and take Christians to heaven...
If the verse says that Jesus comes to recieve us to where he is...doesn't that just mean that we will be where he is? And if he's come here, he's not exactly in heaven, at least then, is he? What's to say, in that verse anyway, that when he comes, that he returns to heaven? It just says that he comes to bring us to him.
And then there's the reference in Revelation about the New Jerusalem. Sure, he's even now preparing a place for us (New Jerusalem), but Revelation tells us that the city actually comes down out of heaven.
So...it's actually not a biblical stretch, is it, to say that the John verse above isn't demanding that Christians go to heaven. There's nothing in it that states it directly. We know that Christ comes down. We know that New Jerusalem comes down. And we know that we will, at this time, ever be with the Lord. Everything else is either filled in with speculation or other verses. I would say that other verses give us a 'single return' event.
 

Enoch111

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What's to say, in that verse anyway, that when he comes, that he returns to heaven?
Please read that passage again, and please read my comments also. "In my Father's house are many mansions..." I have already broken down that passage to make it crystal clear, so I don't see why you are asking this question. Christ is presently in Heaven, and will return to Heaven after the Resurrection/Rapture.
Everything else is either filled in with speculation or other verses.
I have given you TWO Bible passages to show that everything else is NOT speculation. All the saints who have departed this earth are still in Heaven, And after the Resurrection/Rapture all the saints will still be in Heaven (until the second coming of Christ). And even after the New Jerusalem descends out of Heaven, it will remain a heavenly body (it does not come down to earth as some imagine). It will also remain the eternal heavenly home of the Church.

For our conversation [CITIZENSHIP] is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body [AT THE RESURRECTION/RAPTURE], according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. (Phil 3:20,21)
 

Taken

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Oh, I enjoy the rare truthful teaching about how our transformation will be in the form of "rapture." It is just the addition of all the "Left Behind" series rhetoric that most preachers just can't resist "whooping-up" that turns my stomach.

Most of them act like none of the Biblical rapture things were written for any of those billions of Christians who lived and died before us. They stand up there and swear to their congregations, that "IT" is coming in just a few days, and that it was all written back then so that only WE (the Blessed Generation) would finally have it in 2018.

But, they were saying the same thing in 1955 when I was ten..... and back in 1945, when my mother had me.... and back in 1923 when she was born... and back in the WW I days..... and every generation all the way back to Jesus (50 generations if you go by the Biblical 40 years)

Why stand in front of all those billions of people and lie to them, if in truth, The Rapture was not going to be until we were born today? And preachers still try to sell the same nonsense they actually know nothing about, to this very day. (I think Jesus did say no one knows?)

THE RAPTURE has a specific application.

The Rapture applies to those who have become "members" of Christ JESUS' Church.
And "Christ JESUS' "redeeming" of His Church.

It is not about the Faithful servants, before the secret knowledge of "Jesus being the Christ" and His Church, He is building, was revealed.

"Those" before JESUS was revealed, who were Faithful, are the faithful "saints", "invited guests", "witnesses" ..... WHEN Jesus' Church is (redeemed), risen up, for their participation in the marriage celebration.

The blessed are those faithful...
Who are invited guests/witnesses (saints) and the participants in the marriage (Christ's church...confirming their sainthood).

The "left behind", are those who are none of THAT.

God Bless,
Taken
 
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Keraz

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The Bible does tell us about people going to live in heaven. There has been a few special cases; like Elijah and just before Jesus Returns, the two witnesses will be resurrected and taken to heaven.
But any prophecy of a general ‘rapture to heaven’ of the Church in the end times, cannot to be found in the Bible.

The prophecy of Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, is about the Return of Jesus, when He will gather those faithful Christians who remain alive then. Proved by Matthew 24:30-31 It will be a transportation from where they are on earth, to where Jesus is: in the clouds, then to Jerusalem. NOT a spiritual change for them as yet.

There is no scripture that says there will be a ‘rapture’, but there is plenty saying such a thing is impossible:

John 3:13 No one goes to heaven, except the One who came from there.

John 7:34 Where I go, you cannot come....

John 8:21-23 Your home is on earth......

John 17:15 I do not pray for You to take My followers out of the world, but keep them from the evil one.

Revelation 2:25-26 Hold fast to what you have until I Return. To those who are Victorious, to those who persevere in doing My will until the end, I will give them authority over the nations. Revelation 5:9-10


We will all be here to face the great and terrible Day of the Lord’s wrath:

Luke 21:35....that Day will come upon everyone, the whole world over.

Jeremiah 25:29...I am summoning a Sword against all the inhabitants of the earth.

1 Corinthians 1:7-8 There is no gift you lack, while you wait expectantly for Jesus to Return. He will keep you firm in your faith until the end.......


We Christians will be the people God always wanted in the holy Land:

Psalms 37:29 The righteous will possess the Land and will live there forever.

Zechariah 8:7-8 I am about to rescue My people and bring them back to Zion. They will be My people and I will be their God.

Ezekiel 34:11-16 I will search for My sheep from where they are scattered on the Day of cloud and disaster. They will settle in Israel and become prosperous.

Romans 9:24-26 We [Christians] are God’s people, called out of Jew and Gentile.
You were not My people, now I call you My people and the unloved; beloved. In the same place, [in the holy Land] where Israel was told; you are no longer My people, you will be called; the Sons of the Living God.

I know how the teaching of a ‘rapture’ has permeated the Church, For many, it is the only end times scenario they have heard, so for those Christians, it is very difficult to consider another outcome.

But serious thought must be given to the scriptures presented above and know that many pastors and Bible scholars dispute the validity of a ‘rapture.

Why want to go to heaven? We have an incredible destiny awaiting us here, where we belong.
 
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Taken

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Hi! Just a quick question, because I've often wondered at this verse when Dispensationalists use it as a proof that Jesus 'must' come again and take Christians to heaven...
If the verse says that Jesus comes to recieve us to where he is...doesn't that just mean that we will be where he is? And if he's come here, he's not exactly in heaven, at least then, is he? What's to say, in that verse anyway, that when he comes, that he returns to heaven? It just says that he comes to bring us to him.
And then there's the reference in Revelation about the New Jerusalem. Sure, he's even now preparing a place for us (New Jerusalem), but Revelation tells us that the city actually comes down out of heaven.
So...it's actually not a biblical stretch, is it, to say that the John verse above isn't demanding that Christians go to heaven. There's nothing in it that states it directly. We know that Christ comes down. We know that New Jerusalem comes down. And we know that we will, at this time, ever be with the Lord. Everything else is either filled in with speculation or other verses. I would say that other verses give us a 'single return' event.

There are celestial beings, and their first estate...the "Heavens".

Heaven(S) ? Yes.
High Heaven ~ Gods Estate, pure light.
Mid Heaven ~ celestial beings first Estate.
Lower Heaven ~ Access for all celestial beings; holy angels & fallen angels: AND
Visible to earthly (terrestrial beings) eyes.

World(S) ? Yes.
Basic place, where any of Gods Creations may be present.

Earth - Dry Land, situated among seas, for the purpose of an Estate for earthly/natural born terrestrials.

The "Heavens" is NOT where Terrestrials COME FROM or GO TO.

Terrestrial BODY'S/ forms, come out of the Earth...they do not come from or return to the High Heaven, or mid heaven.

Terrestrial LIFE comes from God.
(Soul and spirit).
Souls of terrestrials that have been "restored" (see 23 Psalm), AND
Spirit has become "born again" (see John 3:3)
Shall return to heaven Once their Body dies and returns to dust.

Restored souls, born again spirits in Heaven with God, shall return to Bodys raised up from the earth in glory.

The EARTH shall be made "anew"...corruption burned. The souls, born again spirits, glorified bodys.....of the terrestrials having been made wholly, whole and holy....

Again ON the Earth to occupy the Earth as God intended.

The firmament Gen 1: 6,7,8 ; shall be opened and what was hidden in heaven shall be revealed on earth.
Eph 1:10

Inanutshell it is about JOINING what is Godly with God......souls, spirits, bodies, estates....

And SEPARATING what is NOT Godly....
without God...souls, spirits, bodies, estates....

God Bless,
Taken
 
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Dave L

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OH!! Get real!!! The earth has always had tribulations but not like the great tribulation when men will be hiding in caves and crying for the rocks to fall on them and the sun burning and great sickness and sores covering their bodies!!!
That is the last day you describe. Read Josephus on Jerusalem's destruction, the great tribulation of AD 70. Following is an excerpt...
The Siege of Jerusalem, AD 70
by Josephus

Jerusalem fell, after a siege, to a Roman army under Titus.
Josephus was a Jew who had gone over to the Romans.




Throughout the city people were dying of hunger in large numbers, and enduring unspeakable sufferings. In every house the merest hint of food sparked violence, and close relatives fell to blows, snatching from one another the pitiful supports of life. No respect was paid even to the dying; the ruffians [anti-Roman zealots] searched them, in case they were concealing food somewhere in their clothes, or just pretending to be near death. Gaping with hunger, like mad dogs, lawless gangs went staggering and reeling through the streets, battering upon the doors like drunkards, and so bewildered that they broke into the same house two or three times in an hour. Need drove the starving to gnaw at anything. Refuse which even animals would reject was collected and turned into food. In the end they were eating belts and shoes, and the leather stripped off their shields. Tufts of withered grass were devoured, and sold in little bundles for four drachmas.

But why dwell on the commonplace rubbish which the starving were driven to feed upon, giver that what I have to recount is an act unparalleled in the history of either the Greeks or the barbarians, and as horrible to relate as it is incredible to hear? For my part I should gladly have omitted this tragedy, lest I should be suspected of monstrous fabrication. But there were many witnesses of it among my contemporaries; and besides, I should do poor service to my country if I were to suppress the agonies she went through.

Among the residents of the region beyond Jordan was a woman called Mary, daughter of Eleazar, of the village of Bethezuba (the name means "House of Hyssop"). She was well off, and of good family, and had fled to Jerusalem with her relatives, where she became involved with the siege. Most of the property she had packed up and brought with her from Peraea had been plundered by the tyrants [Simon and John, leaders of the Jewish war-effort], and the rest of her treasure, together with such foods as she had been able to procure, was being carried by their henchmen in their daily raids. In her bitter resentment the poor woman cursed and abused these extortioners, and this incensed them against her. However, no one put her to death either from exasperation or pity. She grew weary of trying to find food for her kinsfolk. In any case, it was by now impossible to get any, wherever you tried. Famine gnawed at her vitals, and the fire of rage was ever fiercer than famine. So, driven by fury and want, she committed a crime against nature. Seizing her child, an infant at the breast, she cried, "My poor baby, why should I keep you alive in this world of war and famine? Even if we live till the Romans come, they will make slaves of us; and anyway, hunger will get us before slavery does; and the rebels are crueler than both. Come, be food for me, and an avenging fury to the rebels, and a tale of cold horror to the world to complete the monstrous agony of the Jews." With these words she killed her son, roasted the body, swallowed half of it, and stored the rest in a safe place. But the rebels were on her at once, smelling roasted meat, and threatening to kill her instantly if she did not produce it. She assured them she had saved them a share, and revealed the remains of her child. Seized with horror and stupefaction, they stood paralyzed at the sight. But she said, "This is my own child, and my own handiwork. Eat, for I have eaten already. Do not show yourselves weaker than a woman, or more pitiful than a mother. But if you have pious scruples, and shrink away from human sacrifice, then what I have eaten can count as your share, and I will eat what is left as well." At that they slunk away, trembling, not daring to eat, although they were reluctant to yield even this food to the mother. The whole city soon rang with the abomination. When people heard of it, they shuddered, as though they had done it themselves.

The Siege of Jerusalem, AD 70, by Flavius Josephus
 
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Keraz

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That is the last day you describe. Read Josephus on Jerusalem's destruction, the great tribulation of AD 70. Following is an excerpt...
Terrible things did happen in 70-135 AD. They were not last time those things happened and terrible things will yet happen.
Proved by the historical record and by todays situation of unrest and potential strife almost worldwide.

Thinking that the prophesies are all fulfilled, is just 'head in the sand' attitude and leaves you 'in the dark'.

Gismys and any 'rapture' believer; Please address my post #48
 
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Dave L

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Terrible things did happen in 70-135 AD. They were not last time those things happened and terrible things will yet happen.
Proved by the historical record and by todays situation of unrest and potential strife almost worldwide.

Thinking that the prophesies are all fulfilled, is just 'head in the sand' attitude and leaves you 'in the dark'.

Gismys and any 'rapture' believer; Please address my post #48
They were the worst tribulation for the Jews according to Jesus, but the entire New Covenant era is tribulation for believers.
 

Ac28

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Yes!! Satan hates the rapture(catching up) teaching too!!
1Thess. 4:13-18
Believers Who Have Died
13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that """God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.""" 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be """caught up""" together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.
Nothing in that scripture you quoted, 1Thess. 4:13-18, comes close to proving what you wish it would prove. The irony of this whole thing is, if your rapture fantasy were really true, which it isn't, you, being in a totally different new dispensation, would never be in the all-Israel rapture anyway. The only Gentiles in the rapture are those grafted into Israel during Acts, who were essentially part of Israel's program. There is no Israel today. Every Jew is a Gentile (non-Jew) today, in God's eyes.

Satan LOVES the false, totally un-Biblical teaching of the fake first, second coming, coming "rapture". Satan is the one that provided that poor little Scottish girl, 200 years ago, with her fake vision.

Satan wants you in Acts. He wants you in that past dispensation and doesn't want you to see the latest dispensation in Eph, Col, etc., that you are actually in. Staying in Acts will prevent you from going to Heaven, since the only people going to Heaven are those that get OUT of Acts and get INTO Paul's 7 post-Acts books for today, the ONLY place you find any group in the Bible that has a Hope of going to Heaven. Those that can SEE this Hope, will be resurrected in the Appearing (not the rapture), in about 46 years and translated to the Highest Heaven, where Christ sits at God's right hand, Ephesians 1:20 (Christ), Ephesians 2:6 (Us). That's exactly where Satan aspired to go and was never allowed to. He certainly doesn't want a bunch of inferior humans to go there.

So far, Satan has been very successful in convincing Gentiles to buy into the lies that the all-Jewish rapture and the all-Jewish Gifts of the Spirit are for the all-Gentile church today. Both of these things, pertaining ONLY to Israel, were set aside in Ac 28:28, 64AD, the same exact instant that Israel ceased to be a nation, in God's eyes. Rapturites and Tonguers are suckers for Satan. They are giving up the Highest Heaven, in their folly, to end up on the New Earth, along with the OT nation of Israel. I really feel sorry for these deluded people, but it's their afterlife.
 
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Naomi25

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Please read that passage again, and please read my comments also. "In my Father's house are many mansions..." I have already broken down that passage to make it crystal clear, so I don't see why you are asking this question. Christ is presently in Heaven, and will return to Heaven after the Resurrection/Rapture.

Yes, sorry, I should have addressed these in my first post, I'll do so now:

So let's ask ourselves some pointed questions:
1. Who is "my Father" in this context? It is God the Father
2. Where is "my Father's house"? It is in Heaven (God's Heaven, the third heaven)
3. Where are those mansions? In the New Jerusalem, which is a heavenly city, and presently in Heaven.
4. Where is Christ at this very moment? Seated at the right hand of God the Father in Heaven.
5. What is "I will come again"? It is the event known as the Rapture, or more precisely the Resurrection/Rapture.
6. Where will Christ take His saints? To where He is, which is in Heaven.
7. Why did Jesus say "Let not your heart be troubled"? He was already anticipating all the nonsense about the Church going through the Tribulation and the Great Tribulation.

Yes, obviously the Father is God, the Father. My Father's House...well...that could either be heaven itself, or New Jerusalem. 'Mansions', undoubtably this is the New Jerusalem. And yes, that is presently in heaven, but we know that the plan is for it to 'come down out of heaven'. It's actually intended to be an earthly city.
Yes, Christ is at this moment seated at the right hand of God, but at some point in the future, he will come again. Forget about the timing of the rapture, he will come, and when he does, he will no longer be in heaven, he will come to earth for us.
Where will Christ take his saints? According to John 14, he will "come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also." This doesn't say 'heaven'. It just says we will be with him. Matt 24 also gives us this image of his return, of him gathering his saints to him when he retuns. 1 Thess 4 again only stipulates that we will be with the Lord. It doesn't say where. In fact, when we look at the wording and consider it, it's a little odd, don't you think, that you insist that "being where I am" has to be in heaven, if Jesus has to come here to get us? By definiton, that means he's not in heaven anymore. He just left heaven. To come get us. So he's now on earth. And verse after verse that talks of his gathering us to him, speaks of just that...that we will be with him. There is no reference to returning to heaven at all.

I have given you TWO Bible passages to show that everything else is NOT speculation. All the saints who have departed this earth are still in Heaven, And after the Resurrection/Rapture all the saints will still be in Heaven (until the second coming of Christ). And even after the New Jerusalem descends out of Heaven, it will remain a heavenly body (it does not come down to earth as some imagine). It will also remain the eternal heavenly home of the Church.

For our conversation [CITIZENSHIP] is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body [AT THE RESURRECTION/RAPTURE], according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. (Phil 3:20,21)
Hebrews 12 is not speaking of Christians being in the New Jerusalem after the Rapture. That's not what the passage is talking about at all, you're distorting the context completely. It's a passage that compares the old covenant to the new. Do you remember Jesus talking to the Samarian woman at the well, telling her that a time would come (and was now here) where people would worship in spirit and truth, rather than in a specific place? That's the gist of it. As Christians we have spiritual access to heaven, and the heavenly benefits of citizenship. But does that mean we can paint in a pre-trib rapture than requires us to dwell there before it comes down out of heaven? No.

And yes, I agree that presently there are Christians in heaven. After all, Paul says that to die is to be with the Lord. But again, I can't see any scripture that says that once Christ returns that Christians (or indeed Christ) must return to heaven for a short period. Passages that speak of our 'citizenship' being in heaven is speaking of allegiance, not dwelling. That's why passages that talk of it speak on how we should behave (see Phil 3:17-19, before the verse you quoted above, and Phil 1:27). Indeed, even in the verse quoted above you have had to insert the reference to the rapture. What if you are forcing something upon scripture that is not supposed to be there? Honestly, I do not see it.
 

Naomi25

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There are celestial beings, and their first estate...the "Heavens".

Heaven(S) ? Yes.
High Heaven ~ Gods Estate, pure light.
Mid Heaven ~ celestial beings first Estate.
Lower Heaven ~ Access for all celestial beings; holy angels & fallen angels: AND
Visible to earthly (terrestrial beings) eyes.

World(S) ? Yes.
Basic place, where any of Gods Creations may be present.

Earth - Dry Land, situated among seas, for the purpose of an Estate for earthly/natural born terrestrials.

The "Heavens" is NOT where Terrestrials COME FROM or GO TO.

Terrestrial BODY'S/ forms, come out of the Earth...they do not come from or return to the High Heaven, or mid heaven.

Terrestrial LIFE comes from God.
(Soul and spirit).
Souls of terrestrials that have been "restored" (see 23 Psalm), AND
Spirit has become "born again" (see John 3:3)
Shall return to heaven Once their Body dies and returns to dust.

Restored souls, born again spirits in Heaven with God, shall return to Bodys raised up from the earth in glory.

The EARTH shall be made "anew"...corruption burned. The souls, born again spirits, glorified bodys.....of the terrestrials having been made wholly, whole and holy....

Again ON the Earth to occupy the Earth as God intended.

The firmament Gen 1: 6,7,8 ; shall be opened and what was hidden in heaven shall be revealed on earth.
Eph 1:10

Inanutshell it is about JOINING what is Godly with God......souls, spirits, bodies, estates....

And SEPARATING what is NOT Godly....
without God...souls, spirits, bodies, estates....

God Bless,
Taken

I...think...I understood that. Your basic idea of the different heavens and the notion of body/spirit leaving corruption and coming together in the new perfect, along with a remade earth. Etc.
However...what I am unsure of is....how has any of that got to do with my post asking about John 14? My point was that Dispensationalists often use that verse to 'prove' that Jesus is going to come and rapture his saints and take them to heaven, and to me, there is no reference to returning to heaven in that passage...only that where Jesus will be, so shall we. And since, by definition, Jesus will have left heaven and come to earth for us, he will be on earth, and there is no mention of him returning, with us, to heaven, then it is pure supposition to suggest it.
As always, I'm happy to be proven wrong in this issue...hey...who wouldn't love to be whisked away before all the bad stuff. But I just don't see scripture allowing us to read it in.
 

Keraz

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They were the worst tribulation for the Jews according to Jesus, but the entire New Covenant era is tribulation for believers.
We are in tribulation now? Funny- if my life so far was 'tribulation', then long may it continue!

The clearly described Seven Trumpets and Seven Bowls of Revelation await fulfilment.
But before them, comes the Great and terrible Day of the Lord's wrath; the Sixth Seal.
At that event, the Jewish people and their evil neighbors will be uprooted. [a euphemism for killed] Jeremiah 12:14, Jeremiah 10:18, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Amos 1 & 2:1-5, Isaiah 17:1, Isaiah 22:14, + and only a remnant will survive. Isaiah 29:4, Romans 9:27
 
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Hidden In Him

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We will all be here to face the great and terrible Day of the Lord’s wrath:

Luke 21:35....that Day will come upon everyone, the whole world over.

Jeremiah 25:29...I am summoning a Sword against all the inhabitants of the earth.

1 Corinthians 1:7-8 There is no gift you lack, while you wait expectantly for Jesus to Return. He will keep you firm in your faith until the end.......

Right here is where I believe you make your error in eschatology, which leads to other misinterpretations. The word states very clearly that the church will not be here to face the wrath of God:

"For they themselves relate concerning us what entrance we had unto you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the True and Living God, and await His Son from Heaven whom He raised from the dead, Jesus, the One delivering us from the wrath to come." (1 Thessalonians 1:9-10)

"But we who are of the Day should remain sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and for a helmet the hope of deliverance, for God has not appointed us unto wrath but to obtain deliverance through Him who died for us, our Lord Jesus Christ, so that whether we watch or sleep we may live together with Him. Therefore encourage one another and edify each other, even as you are doing." (1 Thessalonians 5:8-11)
 

Enoch111

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We are in tribulation now? Funny- if my life so far was 'tribulation', then long may it continue!
Right. But for Preterists everything is a mirage, and nothing is what it seems.
 

Nancy

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The Bible does tell us about people going to live in heaven. There has been a few special cases; like Elijah and just before Jesus Returns, the two witnesses will be resurrected and taken to heaven.
But any prophecy of a general ‘rapture to heaven’ of the Church in the end times, cannot to be found in the Bible.

The prophecy of Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, is about the Return of Jesus, when He will gather those faithful Christians who remain alive then. Proved by Matthew 24:30-31 It will be a transportation from where they are on earth, to where Jesus is: in the clouds, then to Jerusalem. NOT a spiritual change for them as yet.

There is no scripture that says there will be a ‘rapture’, but there is plenty saying such a thing is impossible:

John 3:13 No one goes to heaven, except the One who came from there.

John 7:34 Where I go, you cannot come....

John 8:21-23 Your home is on earth......

John 17:15 I do not pray for You to take My followers out of the world, but keep them from the evil one.

Revelation 2:25-26 Hold fast to what you have until I Return. To those who are Victorious, to those who persevere in doing My will until the end, I will give them authority over the nations. Revelation 5:9-10


We will all be here to face the great and terrible Day of the Lord’s wrath:

Luke 21:35....that Day will come upon everyone, the whole world over.

Jeremiah 25:29...I am summoning a Sword against all the inhabitants of the earth.

1 Corinthians 1:7-8 There is no gift you lack, while you wait expectantly for Jesus to Return. He will keep you firm in your faith until the end.......


We Christians will be the people God always wanted in the holy Land:

Psalms 37:29 The righteous will possess the Land and will live there forever.

Zechariah 8:7-8 I am about to rescue My people and bring them back to Zion. They will be My people and I will be their God.

Ezekiel 34:11-16 I will search for My sheep from where they are scattered on the Day of cloud and disaster. They will settle in Israel and become prosperous.

Romans 9:24-26 We [Christians] are God’s people, called out of Jew and Gentile.
You were not My people, now I call you My people and the unloved; beloved. In the same place,
[in the holy Land] where Israel was told; you are no longer My people, you will be called; the Sons of the Living God.

I know how the teaching of a ‘rapture’ has permeated the Church, For many, it is the only end times scenario they have heard, so for those Christians, it is very difficult to consider another outcome.

But serious thought must be given to the scriptures presented above and know that many pastors and Bible scholars dispute the validity of a ‘rapture.

Why want to go to heaven? We have an incredible destiny awaiting us here, where we belong.
Welcome to the forum @Keraz :)
 

Keraz

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Right here is where I believe you make your error in eschatology, which leads to other misinterpretations. The word states very clearly that the church will not be here to face the wrath of God:
Then you must come up with scriptures that prove your case. That God intends to take His Church to heaven.

The 2 you do quote, just state that we are not appointed to and He will deliver us from, His wrath. This He will do by protection, not removal, as many prophesies tell us. Isaiah 41:13, Isaiah 43:2, Psalms 31:23-24, Zephaniah 2:3, 1 Corinthians 10:13, Nahum 1:7, +
Right. But for Preterists everything is a mirage, and nothing is what it seems.
I am NOT a preterist. Some prophesies are fulfilled, but most remain to happen in the future.
I believe I will see all the events leading up to the Return of Jesus, so plainly prophesied in Revelation and by all the Prophets.
It is when people decide for themselves what they want God to do for them, where the disputes arise.
Welcome to the forum @Keraz :)
Thanks Nancy. I hope and pray that the scriptures that I present help you and all here to understand the truth of God's plans for His people.